Does the average Muslim acknowledge that Christians are monthiestic?

[MH84]

I am talking about the majority, not only the ones who are educated and are living in western countries (but what they think can be included). Because there are three faiths who are recognised as worshipping one God (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), but in the Quran aren’t Christians known as polytheists?

 

[MH84]

FWIW, I think while many acknowledge we are, many (especially those who who able able to recive education) in the non-western countries are told by their leaders that we are polytheistic. Maybe to bolster the people to despise Christianity.

 

[paarsurrey]

I am talking about the majority, not only the ones who are educated and are living in western countries (but what they think can be included). Because there are three faiths who are recognised as worshipping one God (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), but in the Quran aren’t Christians known as polytheists?

Hi

The Catholics could be considered as Monotheists, if they leave the concept of Trinity and Divinity of Mary. Islam is very clear on it, there is no god except GodAllahYHWH. We believe Judaism as Monotheist but sorry not the Catholics; that does not mean that we don’t love them. We love Jesus, Mary and the Apostles ( they are mentioned with respect and love in Quran) and also we love Catholics as good human beings. We try that the Catholics could also become Monotheists, that is our wish.

Thanks

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi

The Catholics could be considered as Monotheists, if they leave the concept of Trinity and Divinity of Mary. Islam is very clear on it, there is no god except GodAllahYHWH. We believe Judaism as Monotheist but sorry not the Catholics; that does not mean that we don’t love them. We love Jesus, Mary and the Apostles ( they are mentioned with respect and love in Quran) and also we love Catholics as good human beings. We try that the Catholics could also become Monotheists, that is our wish.

Thanks

Hello,

First, Catholics do not believe in the “Divinity of Mary”, where did you hear this nonsense.

Second, by definition, one is not a Christian, let alone Catholic if he or she denies the Holy Trinity.

Third, if you don’t believe in the Holy Trinity, how would you explain God, as described in the Old Testament, when He manifested Himself in the form of clouds or a burning bush, would that not be God? (The Holy Spirit). Obviously, God is not literally a burning bush, is He?

If one can except that God can be omni-powerful and omnipresent, such as the burning bush, please explain to me why God would not be capable of entering this world in a human body, as prophesied in the Old Testament?

Finally, if you read the Gospels’, it is very clear that Christ is fully human, while at the same time, fully divine.

Christ Himself referred to Himself as “I Am”, a title reserved for God alone. Was not Jesus a “Holy Man” in your view? If He is, can a “Holy Man” or "Prophet of God” be a liar? I don’ think so.

Roman Catholics are monotheists, we believe in one God, the God of Moses and Abraham, the God of the Old Testament.

What about the Resurrection?

 

[MH84]

Hi

The Catholics could be considered as Monotheists, if they leave the concept of Trinity and Divinity of Mary. Islam is very clear on it, there is no god except GodAllahYHWH. We believe Judaism as Monotheist but sorry not the Catholics; that does not mean that we don’t love them. We love Jesus, Mary and the Apostles ( they are mentioned with respect and love in Quran) and also we love Catholics as good human beings. We try that the Catholics could also become Monotheists, that is our wish.

Thanks

You see, that’s my point. You don’t need to be religious to know that Christians are monotheistic, but Muslim leaders are spreading falsehoods about us. We also don’t believe Mary is divine (in no way is she equal to God), but she is “Theotokos”, that is, “God-bearer”. She is the most perfect of saints and worthy to be called our spiritual mother and a powerful intercessor for us to Christ.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

In my view a family of gods with different qualities is a pantheon. I just believe in one God, and then God can give His power to humans if He desires so they have the power of God over the people. But they don’t become gods, they are still human.

 

[paarsurrey]

You see, that’s my point. You don’t need to be religious to know that Christians are monotheistic, but Muslim leaders are spreading falsehoods about us. We also don’t believe Mary is divine (in no way is she equal to God), but she is “Theotokos”, that is, “God-bearer”. She is the most perfect of saints and worthy to be called our spiritual mother and a powerful intercessor for us to Christ.

Hi

I quote from Quran, that would clear all doubts:

:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[112:2] Say 'He is Allah, the One!
[112:3] Allah the Independent and Besought of all.
[112:4] 'He begets not, nor, is He begotten,
[112:5] And there is none like unto Him.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=112

[5:73] Indeed, they are disbelievers who say, ‘Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Mary,’ whereas the Messiah himself said, ‘O Children of Israel, worship Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord.’ Surely, whoso associates partners with Allah, him has Allah forbidden Heaven, and the Fire will be his resort. And the wrongdoers shall have no helpers.**
[5:74] They surely disbelieve who say, ‘Allah is the third of three;’ there is no god but the One God.** And if they do not desist from what they say, a grievous punishment shall surely befall those of them that disbelieve.
[5:75] Will they not then turn to Allah and ask His forgiveness, while Allah is Most Forgiving and Merciful? **
[5:76] The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman.** They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.
[5:77] Say, 'Will you worship beside Allah that which has no power to do you harm or good? And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
[5:78] Say, ‘O People of the Book, exceed not the limits in the matter of your religion unjustly, nor follow the low desires of a people who went astray before and caused many to go astray, and who have strayed away from the right path.’
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=5&verse=73

So, there is no question of any leader saying it, it is all clear from Quran/Islam/Muhammad. Quran leaves no doubt and is reasonable in this connection.

Thanks

 

[Jimmy_B]

In my view a family of gods with different qualities is a pantheon. I just believe in one God, and then God can give His power to humans if He desires so they have the power of God over the people. But they don’t become gods, they are still human.

The word “pantheon” is reserved to describe Greek mythology or the religion with multiple gods’. Early Christians (Catholics) in Rome, were perscuted and murdered because they would not except muliple gods.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The word “pantheon” is reserved to describe Greek mythology or the religion with multiple gods’. Early Christians (Catholics) in Rome, were perscuted and murdered because they would not except muliple gods.

If you have a Son God who requires a greater Father God to save his life as Hebrews says Jesus required of God that’s basically a pantheon. In that situation Jesus isn’t God with all the same powers but in a different form (a case for monotheism), but he has lesser powers so that makes him a different deity than the Father if he is deity.

Or, if Trinity is supposed to be different forms of God all with the exact same power as a case for monotheism, then it contradicts the NT.

All that being said, since I believe Jesus was born human but made like God over the people, even though he isn’t God, I don’t entirely reject Trinity as being invalid since it all comes out in the wash anyway.

I just think Jesus will correct people and tell them to worship God as God, not him as God, when he returns, but he will still be happier with those who accept him with Trinity than not at all, as long as they are sincere about it and try to follow what he taught. That’s my view.

 

[BlaineTog]

If you have a Son God who requires a greater Father God to save his life as Hebrews says Jesus required of God that’s basically a pantheon. In that situation Jesus isn’t God with all the same powers but in a different form (a case for monotheism), but he has lesser powers so that makes him a different deity than the Father if he is deity.

No. Jesus, The Father, and the Holy Spirit are all the same thing, exactly and without distinction. That we can still draw distinctions is one of the mysteries.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi

I quote from Quran, that would clear all doubts:

:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[112:2] Say 'He is Allah, the One!
[112:3] Allah the Independent and Besought of all.
[112:4] 'He begets not, nor, is He begotten,
[112:5] And there is none like unto Him.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=112

[5:73] Indeed, they are disbelievers who say, ‘Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Mary,’ whereas the Messiah himself said, ‘O Children of Israel, worship Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord.’ Surely, whoso associates partners with Allah, him has Allah forbidden Heaven, and the Fire will be his resort. And the wrongdoers shall have no helpers.
[5:74] They surely disbelieve who say, ‘Allah is the third of three;’ there is no god but the One God. And if they do not desist from what they say, a grievous punishment shall surely befall those of them that disbelieve.
[5:75] Will they not then turn to Allah and ask His forgiveness, while Allah is Most Forgiving and Merciful?
[5:76] The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food. See how We explain the Signs for their good, and see how they are turned away.
[5:77] Say, 'Will you worship beside Allah that which has no power to do you harm or good? And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
[5:78] Say, ‘O People of the Book, exceed not the limits in the matter of your religion unjustly, nor follow the low desires of a people who went astray before and caused many to go astray, and who have strayed away from the right path.’
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=5&verse=73

So, there is no question of any leader saying it, it is all clear from Quran/Islam/Muhammad. Quran leaves no doubt and is reasonable in this connection.

Thanks

How was it that the prophet Mohammad learned of Mary and Jesus in the first place? Is that explained anywhere in Islam?

Wasn’t Islam founded 600 years after Christianity?; well into the period of time where everyone can agree the if one considered themselves Christian during this point in history, he would be a Roman Catholic and that the Roman Catholic Church as we know it today was well formed by 600 AD.

Wasn’t the Cannon (the New Testament) closed well before Mohammad (600 A.D.)?

How does a Muslim reconcile the below verses?

**

Exodus 3:13-16

13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.'" 15 God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. (Exodus (RSV) 3)
**
**AND **

**

John 8:57-58

57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.” (John (NAB) 8)
**

Finally, can you as a Muslim find any fault in Jesus or Mary and how would their behavior, character and honesty and faith compare to that of Mohammad?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

No. Jesus, The Father, and the Holy Spirit are all the same thing, exactly and without distinction. That we can still draw distinctions is one of the mysteries.

If they are all the same thing with the same powers why did Jesus cry to the Father to save him from death?

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he (JESUS) had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (GOD) that was able to save him (JESUS) from death, and was heard in that he feared

 

[BlaineTog]

If they are all the same thing with the same powers why did Jesus cry to the Father to save him from death?

Because though the same, they are still distinct, and have different roles.

Like I said, it’s one of the mysteries. I’d probably try harder to muscle through that anyway, except it’s 4 AM here, and I like blaming my laziness on arbitrary details.

EDIT: “Different roles” might be an easy way of understanding it. When acting in capacity as the Father, God keeps the universe running and the Sun burning. When acting in capacity as the Holy Spirit, God whispers “Maybe you should think about getting your wife some flowers on the way home” in your ear (or something).

 

[MH84]

No. Jesus, The Father, and the Holy Spirit are all the same thing, exactly and without distinction. That we can still draw distinctions is one of the mysteries.

You wording is a bit ambiguous. I think what you mean is that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit each have the same nature (the nature of God), but that each is a distinct Person to one another. Therefore, the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, nor is the Son the Father or the Holy Spirit, nor is the Holy Spirit the Son or the Father.

So they each possessess the nature of God, but each Person is distinct from the other.

 

[MH84]

EDIT: “Different roles” might be an easy way of understanding it. When acting in capacity as the Father, God keeps the universe running and the Sun burning. When acting in capacity as the Holy Spirit, God whispers “Maybe you should think about getting your wife some flowers on the way home” in your ear (or something).

Im not sure if you are right. But IMO, I dont like to use the roles that each Person undertook to explain the Trinity, because those roles were only used in the context of our salvation history weren’t they? They are eternal. But I think explanations like yours still make a great re-enforcement to understanding the doctrine.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

You wording is a bit ambiguous. I think what you mean is that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit each have the same nature (the nature of God), but that each is a distinct Person to one another. Therefore, the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, nor is the Son the Father or the Holy Spirit, nor is the Holy Spirit the Son or the Father.

So they each possessess the nature of God, but each Person is distinct from the other.

When you have something called three persons, to Muslims that’s just a way of saying there are three gods in a pantheon called the Trinity.

If Christians took the precedent of Moses and used that to say:

Father God is God, His voice is the Holy Spirit, and His Word are His commands and messages or the thing that His voice says. Only one God, that His voice and words are just Him, like your voice and words are just you, only one person not three persons.

Then say that God can speak through a human like Jesus so that Jesus would be speaking as God Himself, God’s Word and voice in flesh, so that Jesus should be obeyed and respected like God but not worshiped as God because God is still God, and Jesus is still a man, not God.

…then it may be more acceptable to Muslims.

 

[MH84]

When you have something called three persons, to Muslims that’s just a way of saying there are three gods in a pantheon called the Trinity.

If Christians took the precedent of Moses and used that to say:

Father God is God, His voice is the Holy Spirit, and His Word are His commands and messages or the thing that His voice says. Only one God, that His voice and words are just Him, like your voice and words are just you, only one person not three persons.

Then say that God can speak through a human like Jesus so that Jesus would be speaking as God Himself, God’s Word and voice in flesh, so that Jesus should be obeyed and respected like God but not worshiped as God because God is still God, and Jesus is still a man, not God.

…then it may be more acceptable to Muslims.

So you are saying that we Catholics should become Unitarians?

Reading your post, I could sense that you mainly just put what you think makes sense to you when you read the scriptures. And saying that is what Muslims would accept.

Also, how can my words and commands be me? They can’t because Im imperfect. Only God can utter Himself perfectly. That perfection is His Son.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

So you are saying that we Catholics should become Unitarians?

Reading your post, I could sense that you mainly just put what you think makes sense to you when you read the scriptures. And saying that is what Muslims would accept.

Also, how can my words and commands be me? They can’t because Im imperfect. Only God can utter Himself perfectly. That perfection is His Son.

I’m saying that God speaking through a human prophet may be more acceptable to Muslims than God being a human prophet.

My post isn’t here on this server as a second person that is also me. There’s only one person behind it all.

But if someone took it and told others exactly what it said, then I would essentially be speaking through that person. But I wouldn’t be that person, and he wouldn’t be me.

 

[MH84]

I’m saying that God speaking through a human prophet may be more acceptable to Muslims than God being a human prophet.

My post isn’t here on this server as a second person that is also me. There’s only one person behind it all.

But if someone took it and told others exactly what it said, then I would essentially be speaking through that person. But I wouldn’t be that person, and he wouldn’t be me.

I think I understand what you are saying. But, using your analogy, your posts here are not you. They are rather from you.

Otherwise it sounds strange. So if I cough, the vapour is me as well? No, instead the cough came from me. There is a difference.

 

[paarsurrey]

[if you don’t believe in the Holy Trinity, how would you explain God, as described in the Old Testament

Hi

I think that is quite easy. OTBible belongs to Jews, if you ask them please, they would provide you a very good explanation. Jews don’t believe that Trinity is mentioned in the OTBible. As you know this concept was bargained/imported at Rome by Paul from the hellenistic pagans they say. Jesus, Mary and the Apostles were no doubt Monotheistics Jews, this is very much mentioned in Quran. As I understand Paul was not a Monotheist.

You could have different view, nevermind.

Thanks
[/quote]