Does the average Muslim acknowledge that Christians are monthiestic?

[FaithofAbraham]

how is this not in harmony with the passage i quoted from Isaiah? the Word sent from the Mouth of the Lord does His Will because it cannot but do His will since the Word is God, regardless of the means by which it was sent, in this case, a human with a human will.

Unlike any other prophet, Jesus never ever opposed the Will of the Father or committed any sin or prayed for His salvation or aked forgiveness because He is the Word of the Father sent to do the Father’s Will.

If there is a Father spirit, a Holy Spirit, a Word spirit – all three being God and God’s will – and then a human will spirit, doesn’t that make for more than a Trinity? What happens to Jesus’ human spirit in all this?

 

[inJESUS]

If there is a Father spirit, a Holy Spirit, a Word spirit – all three being God and God’s will – and then a human will spirit, doesn’t that make for more than a Trinity? What happens to Jesus’ human spirit in all this?

you are mixing the Trinity with the Incarnation.

the Father, Word, Spirit is One God, existed eternally before any creation.

The incarnation of Jesus is another thing.

God being Father, Word/Wisdom and Holy Spirit is who God is eternally regardless whether the Word took a human flesh and will or not.

So if the Father sent His Word in the form of a human flesh, will, emotions, it does not mean there is a change in the nature of God but rather a change occured as the Word took an additional nature that does neither affect the nature of the Father, nor the nature of the Word as the eternal Word of the Father.

 

[BlaineTog]

If there is a Father spirit, a Holy Spirit, a Word spirit – all three being God and God’s will – and then a human will spirit, doesn’t that make for more than a Trinity? What happens to Jesus’ human spirit in all this?

It’s in there as part of the person of Jesus.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

you are mixing the Trinity with the Incarnation.

the Father, Word, Spirit is One God, existed eternally before any creation.

The incarnation of Jesus is another thing.

God being Father, Word/Wisdom and Holy Spirit is who God is eternally regardless whether the Word took a human flesh and will or not.

So if the Father sent His Word in the form of a human flesh, will, emotions, it does not mean there is a change in the nature of God but rather a change occured as the Word took an additional nature that does neither affect the nature of the Father, nor the nature of the Word as the eternal Word of the Father.

So if the human spirit didn’t always exist eternally as God, but was a created thing of God, why do you worship the human spirit as God? Isn’t it better to say God created Jesus like Adam, then dwelled in the human to make him as a prophet like Aaron and with power of God like Moses had? That would be so much more acceptable to Muslims and Jews.

Exodus 4:15-16 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou (MOSES) shalt be to him instead of God.

 

[Jimmy_B]

**Here is my attempt to explain the Holy Trinity, I hope this helps. **

The Holy Trinity

The Holy Trinity is a self-evident truth. While it is true that the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible, it is an apparent truth, which is revealed to us in the Bible. The truth, which is the Holy Trinity has always existed and been present in the Bible.

The Bible reveals the Trinity to us and it reveals to us a God, our God, Who is Omni- intelligent (all knowing), Omni-powerful (all-powerful) and Omnipresent (the ability to be everywhere and anywhere, at any and all time(s)).

His (God’s) true perfection, pure essence, deity, pure nature and presence can clearly be found in the Holy Scriptures. The pure essence of God our Father is that of three “persons” one God, all parts being equal, while at the same time being inseparable.

St. Patrick has been described using a three-leaf clover to illustrate this point; one cloverleaf, with three equal and inseparable “parts” or pedals.

If one accepts the truth that God is Omni-intellgent, Omni-powerful and Omnipresent, then it naturally follows that God can manifest Himself in any form(s) or essence because He is pure essense, the beginning and Creator of all essence. His existence is eternal, past present and future (Alpha and Omega), all time and before time.

To deny the Trinity is to deny the power and ability of God.

If one accepts the God of the Old Testament, then the burden of proof is on then one who wishes to disprove the ability of God to manifest Himself as He wills; and this cannot be done, using the Bible.

 

[inJESUS]

So if the human spirit didn’t always exist eternally as God, but was a created thing of God, why do you worship the human spirit as God?

what human spirit are you referring to? Jesus’ human spirit? we worship the Word of God, the eternal Word of God in the person of Jesus. If God chose to send His Word in a human flesh, we worship it as te Father sent it because that is how He sent His Word. We do not “dissect” Jesus. We worsip Him as the eternal Word of the Father.

Isn’t it better to say God created Jesus like Adam, then dwelled in the human to make him as a prophet like Aaron and with power of God like Moses had? That would be so much more acceptable to Muslims and Jews.

it’d bette to say God does not want us to refrain from x or y because it’d be better to human’s way of thinking.

I will not oppose what God says because of what humans want or what they find “acceptable”…God is who He says He is, not who people want Him to be.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I have the sufficient proof for myself that Jesus is human son of David, and we know that the human spirit of Jesus did not always exist eternally as God but was created.

The question for everyone: is worship of creation, even if it is in partnership with the creator, idolatry? For me as a Muslim it is, I worship the creator as God alone.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

what human spirit are you referring to? Jesus’ human spirit? we worship the Word of God, the eternal Word of God in the person of Jesus. If God chose to send His Word in a human flesh, we worship it as te Father sent it because that is how He sent His Word. We do not “dissect” Jesus. We worsip Him as the eternal Word of the Father.

it’d bette to say God does not want us to refrain from x or y because it’d be better to human’s way of thinking.

I will not oppose what God says because of what humans want or what they find “acceptable”…God is who He says He is, not who people want Him to be.

You said “Father, Word, Spirit is One God, existed eternally before any creation. The incarnation of Jesus is another thing.”

So God had to create a Jesus with a human will and spirit, since God is not human.

God doesn’t change, He exists eternally, although He may create prophets and such then dwell in them to speak His Word. For me it is idolatry to worship a prophet. God could dwell in a donkey and make it speak but I will not worship a donkey either.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I have the sufficient proof for myself that Jesus is human son of David, and we know that the human spirit of Jesus did not always exist eternally as God but was created.

The question for everyone: is worship of creation, even if it is in partnership with the creator, idolatry? For me as a Muslim it is, I worship the creator as God alone.

What is your “proof”? Please produce it here.

I’m sorry, but I don’t believe you understand the true essence of God. His Holy name sums it up, “I Am”. You existed before you were formed in your mother’s womb. First God willed it (your creation) then it occurred as He willed it and you were then created by God.

Time as we know it does not apply to God.

Since Jesus is referred to as “God with us” he was God from the beginning, He is in fact, God. His birth was foretold in the Old Testament.

The Old Testament and the New Testament mirror each other.

The Old Testament does not work without the New Testament and The New Testament does not work without the Old Testament and the Koran does’nt work without either one. The Old Testament and the New Testament validated one another.

Research the typology of the Bible and you will find this to be true.

Your assumption is in error because; The Cause must precede the Action. Christ’s birth was not accidental, just as your birth or creation was not accidental. To wrongly assume that Christ did not exist before His birth, is to assume that His birth was an accident and deny God’s will. It was God’s will; Cause followed by Action. This is a self-evident truth.

The burden is on you to prove that God is incapable of manifesting Himself in human form and to show, using the Old Testament or New Testament, that Jesus is not God.

Because what I have describe is a Truth you will not be able to meet the burden of proof to overcome the Biblically overwhelming evidence that the Holy Trinity is a truth and Jesus was in fact, God

Are you one of those who are saying, "Jesus are you the one or should we look for another” Are you still looking and waiting. If you believe the Old Testament and do not believe in Jesus Christ, then you are still waiting and looking.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

What is your “proof”? Please produce it here.

Are you one of those who are saying, "Jesus are you the one or should we look for another” Are you still looking and waiting. If you believe the Old Testament and do not believe in Jesus Christ, then you are still waiting and looking.

What is your belief, do you believe Jesus had a human spirit in addition to the Word spirit, since he was subject to all the temptations we are as it is written? Where did the human spirit come from if it was not always eternal as a God?

 

[paarsurrey]

Wasn’t the Cannon (the New Testament) closed well before Mohammad

Hi

We Muslims understand only one canon by the name LawofMoses; all ProphetsMessengers of GodAllahYHWH including JesusYeshuaIssa were to follow it, preach it and enforce it. The next canon was LawofMuhammad, and none between. This is very clearly mentioned in Quran and I think you will agree with me.

[5:45] **Surely, We sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of Allah, and because they were guardians over it. Therefore fear not men but fear ME; and barter not My signs for a paltry price. And whoso judges not by that which Allah has sent down, these it is who are the disbelievers.
[5:46] And therein We prescribed for them: Life for life, and eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and for other injuries equitable retaliation. And whoso waives the right thereto, it shall be an expiation for his own sins; and whoso judges not by what Allah has sent down, these it is who are wrongdoers. **
[5:47] And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, fulfilling that which was revealed before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel which contained guidance and light, fulfilling that which was revealed before him in the Torah; and a guidance and an admonition for the God-fearing.
[5:48] And let the people of the Gospel judge according to what Allah has revealed therein, and whoso judges not by what Allah has revealed, these it is who are the transgressors.
[5:49] And We have revealed unto thee the Book comprising the truth and fulfilling that which was revealed before it in the Book, and as a guardian over it. Judge, therefore, between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their evil desires, turning away from the truth which has come to thee. For each of you We prescribed a clear spiritual Law and a manifest way in secular matters. And if Allah had enforced His will, He would have made you all one people, but He wishes to try you by that which He has given you. Vie then with one another in doing good works. To Allah shall you all return; then He will inform you of that wherein you differed;
[5:50] And that thou shouldst judge between them by that which Allah has revealed and follow not their evil desires and be on thy guard against them, lest they involve thee in trouble on account of a part of what Allah has revealed to thee. But if they turn away, then know that Allah intends to punish them for some of their sins. And indeed a large number of men are disobedient.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=5&verse=44

I think the confusion among the Catholics is that they consider the religious theology/religious philosophy introduced by Paul at Rome using name of JesusYeshuaIssa as a cover only, as their new canon. I have no objection on this, but they must realize that a cover is only a cover, it does not contain teachings of Jesus in it which essentially consisted of guiding people on LawofMoses.

I think it is reasonable and you agree with me.

Thanks

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi

We Muslims understand only one canon by the name LawofMoses; all ProphetsMessengers of GodAllahYHWH including JesusYeshuaIssa were to follow it, preach it and enforce it. The next canon was LawofMuhammad, and none between. This is very clearly mentioned in Quran and I think you will agree with me.

[5:45] **Surely, We sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people **and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of Allah, and because they were guardians over it. Therefore fear not men but fear ME; and barter not My signs for a paltry price. And whoso judges not by that which Allah has sent down, these it is who are the disbelievers.
[5:46] And therein We prescribed for them: Life for life, and eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and for other injuries equitable retaliation. And whoso waives the right thereto, it shall be an expiation for his own sins; and whoso judges not by what Allah has sent down, these it is who are wrongdoers.
[5:47] And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, fulfilling that which was revealed before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel which contained guidance and light, fulfilling that which was revealed before him in the Torah; and a guidance and an admonition for the God-fearing.
[5:48] And let the people of the Gospel judge according to what Allah has revealed therein, and whoso judges not by what Allah has revealed, these it is who are the transgressors.
[5:49] And We have revealed unto thee the Book comprising the truth and fulfilling that which was revealed before it in the Book, and as a guardian over it. Judge, therefore, between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their evil desires, turning away from the truth which has come to thee. For each of you We prescribed a clear spiritual Law and a manifest way in secular matters. And if Allah had enforced His will, He would have made you all one people, but He wishes to try you by that which He has given you. Vie then with one another in doing good works. To Allah shall you all return; then He will inform you of that wherein you differed; …

I think the confusion among the Catholics is that they consider the religious theology/religious philosophy introduced by Paul at Rome using name of JesusYeshuaIssa as a cover only, as their new canon. I have no objection on this, but they must realize that a cover is only a cover, it does not contain teachings of Jesus in it which essentially consisted of guiding people on LawofMoses.

I think it is reasonable and you agree with me.

Thanks

No It does not at all seem reasonable to me, I am not confused at all regarding the Apostle Paul and I can never agree with you, I am a Roman Cathoilic for life.

If as you say (or as the document provided purports’) that their existed nothing between the Torah (the first four books of the Old Testament) and the Koran (no New Testament), then how did Mohammad know about Mary and Jesus?

You still haven’t answered my question. What you provided here makes absolutely no sense to me and it appears to contradict history’s religious timeline. If I were to understand the document provided by you, (which I don’t think I do) then it would be like saying, “Christians gave the Jews the Torah”, without explaining how Christians even knew about the Torah in the first place if they deny its existence, even though Christianity was started/founded, after the Jewish religion.

How is it possible for the Muslim religion to “give” anything to Jesus when He was on earth 600 years before Mohammad and how can the “Gospels” be given to Jesus, when the Gospels were written about Him after His death and resurrection? Honestly, if you can explain what you have posted here, please do. As one who acts as authoritative on the Muslim religion as you do, it should be easy for you to answer my questions.

If you please, you can start with; how did Mohammad come to know about Jesus and Mary? I would think that, that would be an easy question to answer. I am not an expert on theology, let alone Islam, so please explain your faith and try to do so in a way that an old dumb guy like me might understand. Thank you.

paarsurrey stated:
II think the confusion among the Catholics is that they consider the religious theology/religious philosophy introduced by Paul at Rome using name of JesusYeshuaIssa as a cover only"

What does this mean and who is “JesusYeshualssa” and where did this information come from?

 

[MH84]

Jimmy B, some of paarsurrey’s comments may not be representative of the more orthodox Muslims. He is an Ahmadi, which I think is the equivalent to the Protestants in Christianity (a type of reformed group).

 

[paarsurrey]

If as you say (or as the document provided purports’) that their existed nothing between the Torah (the first four books of the Old Testament) and the Koran (no New Testament), then how did Mohammad know about Mary and Jesus?

Hi

It is very easy to understand my friend.

GodAllahYHWH talks to His ProphetsMessengers like He talked to Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad; and He revealed certain things to them for the guidance of the humanity at large. The **common source **of their knowledge was/is GodAllahYHWH. He revealed everything to Muhammad directly, so Muhammad need not read OTBible or NTBible or any other book; **he gained knowledge about JesusYeshuaIssa and Mary from the original source **of All-Knowing GodAllahYHWH; this is my understanding, and I think it is not difficult to understand.

May GodAllahYHWH bless you!

Thanks

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy B, some of paarsurrey’s comments may not be representative of the more orthodox Muslims. He is an Ahmadi, which I think is the equivalent to the Protestants in Christianity (a type of reformed group).

Ok, thanks, I kind of got that impression…

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi

It is very easy to understand my friend.

GodAllahYHWH talks to His ProphetsMessengers like He talked to Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad; and He revealed certain things to them for the guidance of the humanity at large. The **common source **of their knowledge was/is GodAllahYHWH. He revealed everything to Muhammad directly, so Muhammad need not read OTBible or NTBible or any other book; **he gained knowledge about JesusYeshuaIssa and Mary from the original source **of All-Knowing GodAllahYHWH; this is my understanding, and I think it is not difficult to understand.

May GodAllahYHWH bless you!

Thanks

**

He revealed everything to Muhammad directly

**, Ok, Got it… Thanks

 

[inJESUS]

So if the human spirit didn’t always exist eternally as God, but was a created thing of God, why do you worship the human spirit as God?

We worship the Word of God, the eteral Word of God that created everything and the same Word that took a human flesh. It was, it is, and it will always be the Eternal Word of God that created everything.

Isn’t it better to say God created Jesus like Adam, then dwelled in the human to make him as a prophet like Aaron and with power of God like Moses had?

 

[inJESUS]

I have the sufficient proof for myself that Jesus is human son of David,

Jesus cannot be the son of the David He created and David’s son He created.

and we know that the human spirit of Jesus did not always exist eternally as God but was created.

 

[exoflare]

The answer is NO. You can bank on that.

 

[inJESUS]

What is your belief, do you believe Jesus had a human spirit in addition to the Word spirit, since he was subject to all the temptations we are as it is written?

again, Jesus is the eternal Word of God that took a human flesh. He was tempted as all of us yet never ever sinned because He is the Father’s Word that does the will of the Father.

Where did the human spirit come from if it was not always eternal as a God?