Does the Bible Alone Condemn Same-sex "Marriage"?

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Aureole

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I was reading Catholic Light just now and an interesting post came up with this very title. I read it and it caught me somewhat off guard, though after some thought it makes perfect sense. Anyhow, I wanted to know other people’s opinions on this. So, does the Bible alone condemn same-sex “marriage”?
 
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Aureole:
I was reading Catholic Light just now and an interesting post came up with this very title. I read it and it caught me somewhat off guard, though after some thought it makes perfect sense. Anyhow, I wanted to know other people’s opinions on this. So, does the Bible alone condemn same-sex “marriage”?
Isn’t homosexuality a sin? Doesn’t the Bible “alone” say that homosexuality is a sin? I would say that yes, the Bible “alone” condemns same sex marriage.
 
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Aureole:
I was reading Catholic Light just now and an interesting post came up with this very title. I read it and it caught me somewhat off guard, though after some thought it makes perfect sense. Anyhow, I wanted to know other people’s opinions on this. So, does the Bible alone condemn same-sex “marriage”?
As the bible condemns same sex sexual acts it obviously follows that same sex marriage would be banned.
 
Sure, it’s all over the Bible:

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.(Le 18:22).

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.(Le 20:13).

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.(Ro 1:26).

Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 immoral persons, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.(1 Ti 1:8).
 
The modern notion of a homosexual relationship was non-existant in the society in which the bible was written. When the bible was written the authors knew of same-sex sexual acts, however, they **had no grasp **of a “homosexual”, as in a person who is soley attracted to a member of the same sex and seeks to engage in a romantic, life long relationship akin to the idea of a heterosexual couple. Again, the biblical writers did not see persons who engaged in same-sex sex as “homosexuals”, rather they saw them as heterosexuals (for everyone’s heterosexuality was assumed) who engaged in sexual relations of a homosexual nature out of excessive lust, as a consequence of idolatory, as a part of a pagan cultic practice, or to establish dominance over a male opponent.

Since we do know that the biblical authors saw homosexual acts in this context, we can recognize that they are considerably removed from the modern idea of a homosexual couple. Thus, while we can use the bible to condemn homosexual acts that are exploitive, degrading, used to dominate or associated with cults, we can not say with any degree of certainty what the Bible would have to say about a committed, monogomous, loving homosexual couple (in the sense of orientation, not soley the sexual act, as well as “couple” in the sense of two people engaged in a romantic relationship, not simply two people engaging in sex) Simply because the Bible has nothing to say about this.

Ideas about human sexuality in ancient societies are radically different from today. For example, it was assumed that in sexual intercourse, the female was always the passive partner and the male the agressive conqueror, this assumption being based on the anatomical functions of the respective sexes. However, this ignores the reciprocal nature of sex in which both partners are offering eachother up to one another, both giving and both recieving at the same time.

Secondly, ancient societies believed that the male alone produced the substance of reproduction. The semen was believed to contain all the matierial neccessary to create a child. Females were seen soley as the vehicle through which a child would be born. Hence, semen is refered to as “seed”, for it was thought that the uterus was “soil” in which the child would grow.

Both of these assumptions had dramatic implications as to how society functioned and how sex was viewed. The notion of a female as the passive reciever who contributed no substance to the creation of a child helped to create and re-inforce a patriarchial society in which everything was passed through the male (as only a male was capable of passing on “genes”)

When we return to homosexuality, we can see that flawed notions, such as homosexual acts arise out of excessive lust and that they always involve heterosexual people, undoubtly influenced how those societies would understand the morality of same-sex sexual interaction. This was not an issue of one person oriented to one sex or another, this was an issue of men or women choosing to be attratced to the same sex and acting upon it. They were willingly “going against nature”, not only in the act but in very decision to have those attractions.

If we look to Paul, he says
“Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way, men abandoned their natural relations with women and we inflamed with lust for another” Romans 1:26
The key words here are “exchanged” and “abandoned”. What these societies assumed were that these sexual desires were the perogative of any human being; heterosexual people (the ONLY sexuality) choosing to engage in homosexual acts. If you read Paul closely, he makes it clear that these bad choices were the result of worshipping false gods and turning away from God.

We often look to the Bible as though it is some kind of encyclopedia, or question and answer book. - insert moral dilemna here and you will recieve the appropriate instruction. However, to study the bible without being thoroughly aware of the context in which it was written, without understanding how the author viewed human sexuality, the natural world, society, law ect. is to actually overlook the author’s intentions and blindly apply things to the modern world which do not neccessarily apply and were not neccessarily the author’s original intention.

Thus we can reasonably say that the bible offers no real proclaimation on the issue of modern homosexual relationships.
 
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Gnosis:
The modern notion of a homosexual relationship was non-existant in the society in which the bible was written. When the bible was written the authors knew of same-sex sexual acts, however, they **had no grasp **of a “homosexual”, as in a person who is soley attracted to a member of the same sex and seeks to engage in a romantic, life long relationship akin to the idea of a heterosexual couple.
I believe what you are doing is begging the question.

Please tell us how you came to this conclusion.
 
Thank you for the replies so far. However, I don’t think they address same-sex “marriage” specifically. They are pretty clear on same-sex intercourse, yes, but not same-sex “marriage”. Don’t the quotes provided by awalt need interpretation in order to be applied to same-sex “marriage” (Thank you for them by the way)? Of course, this is where Tradition comes in, which is what Peter Vere was saying on Catholic Light. Wouldn’t it thus be safe to say that Scripture alone indeed does not condemn same-sex “marriage” (As Gnosis pointed out) but needs Tradition?
 
This conclusion is easily reached.

Simply put, ancient near east societies had no concept of homosexuality, the term homosexual wasn’t even coined until the 18th Century, the term heterosexual even after that. Everyone’s “heterosexuality” was thus assumed. There was however, the idea of same-sex sexual interaction, which was obviously prohibited. If you look to the bible, there is no word for someone who engages exclusively in same-sex sex.

When looking to the laws in the Old Testament, we know that there was no concept of individuality. Everything was done for the sake of the community, for the community alone ensured your survival in a very dangerous world. Homosexual acts would have presented a threat to the community as the infant mortality rate was high and reproduction had to be ensured. Secondly, a male taking a passive role was seen to degrade his masculinity (again, back to flawed ancient notions of human sexuality: passive vs. agressive)

When the Hebrew law was written, homosexual acts were associated with fertility cultic practices, as well as a method for a male to subject an opponent to humilation (see Sodom and Gibeah). It is likely that they saw it as a transgression against God’s established laws.

But what must be kept in mind is that the morality of same-sex interaction was rooted in the ancient view of sexuality. As I pointed out, the key words Paul uses are “abandoned” and “exchanged” natural sexual relations. Same-sex lust was a choice made by those who worshipped idols (according to Paul). To the authors of the Bible there was no concept of romantic involvement, there were no “homosexuals” who wanted to live together for life as a committed couple. There were only heterosexual people who chose to have these unnatural feelings (choices stemming from idolatry) and chose to indulge in them.

Paul was likely aware of Greek pedastry, which often involved the exploitation of a younger male for the expenses of an older man (who himself was likely married). Even in Greek society where same-sex love was acknowledged, there was no “homosexual”, for it was presupposed that homosexual relationships were simply a stage that one would progress through before settling down with a woman.

What we can conclude is that the bible offers a condemnation of same-sex interaction when it is: exploitive, degrading, used for humiliation or associated with pagan rites. For these were the only contexts of which the biblical authors would have been aware. Their presumptions about human sexuality naturally led to their moral evaluation.

The modern homosexual relationship is very different. This involves two people who engage in a romantic relationship, who are committed to each other, who are both homosexual in their orientation (only have feelings for the same sex) and who engage in sex that is not considered to degrade one parnter (the ancients assumed the one penetrated was of lesser worth)

What does the Bible say of these relationships, and in turn, same-sex marriage? Nothing, for these relationships were literally unconceivable at this period in time.
 
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Aureole:
Thank you for the replies so far. However, I don’t think they address same-sex “marriage” specifically. They are pretty clear on same-sex intercourse, yes, but not same-sex “marriage”. Don’t the quotes provided by awalt need interpretation in order to be applied to same-sex “marriage” (Thank you for them by the way)? Of course, this is where Tradition comes in, which is what Peter Vere was saying on Catholic Light. Wouldn’t it thus be safe to say that Scripture alone indeed does not condemn same-sex “marriage” (As Gnosis pointed out) but needs Tradition?
Sort of. It is required that a marriage be consumated. How can homosexual’s consumate, and thereby legitimize, their marriage when they are forbiden to engage in the act of consumation?

I think you guys are looking way too far into this.
 
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Gnosis:
Thus we can reasonably say that the bible offers no real proclaimation on the issue of modern homosexual relationships.
Not necessarily. If you have ever read Theology of the Body, it is quite evident in Scripture what the purpose, function, and beauty of human sexuality was designed to be. It is not always necessary to deny something with a directly negative claim. Saying “it is good to help the poor” is the same as saying “it is bad not to help the poor.”

Since the practice of homosexuality exists contrary to how proper human sexuality is defined and revealed in the whole Scripture it is quite easy to deduce that anything contrary to this vision would be wrong.

The Bible doesn’t have to say specifically “living with a member of the same sex in such a way as to act married while not actually being married is wrong” in order to get that very same point across.
 
Gnosis, forgive me if I’m being disrespectful, but aren’t your arguments a bit far-fetched? I mean, we’re talking about an *action * here. If a child’s parent tells them that stealing is wrong, can the child simply redefine the concept (“I am shoplifting, not stealing”) and justify the action? Is it really all that likely that a bunch of heterosexual men suddenly found themselves burning with lust for other men?

It just sounds like rationalizing to me. :confused:
 
This isn’t far fetched at all. I am not saying that the homosexual orientation did not exist until modern times, but I am saying it wasn’t seen as an orientation until modern times. It is obvious, the bible did not have a concept of homosexuals, but only of homosexual acts. It believed that all homosexual acts were peformed by heterosexuals, and therefore, these people were willingly abandoning their natural inclinations to engage in something unnatural out of pure lust.

Actually, homosexual acts performed by heterosexuals still occurs today. Rape in prison is the primary example. In the majority of cases, prison inmates are heterosexuals, and do not consider themselves gay. But, being deprived of females for so long, it is documented that they, at times, rape a male inmate (often the most feminine or weakest one). However, upon release from prison, they will not pursue other males as females are now available.

We know that that example just listed above is not an example of homosexuals having sex, but heterosexuals having homosexual sex.

The biblical authors had a very different understanding of human sexuality than we do today, and this certainly affected their moral evaluation of sexual interaction. As I pointed out, they really didnt understand homosexuality, so how can we say that their evaluation of it applies to today?

I am not saying that the bible supports gay marriage or the modern homosexual relationship, but what I am saying is that the bible was written in a context that is so radically removed from the modern context that we can not use it as a legitimate condemnation.

For example, today, you would consider a female to pass on the genes of a family, would you not? You would consider the children in a family to be the mothers and the fathers, would you not? You wouldn’t insist that, if a husband died, the brother wed the widow would you?

Ancient views of sexuality would have certainly answered these questions different than you. Yet we reap the benefits of modern knowledge and take a different approach today.
 
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Gnosis:
The biblical authors had a very different understanding of human sexuality than we do today, and this certainly affected their moral evaluation of sexual interaction. As I pointed out, they really didnt understand homosexuality, so how can we say that their evaluation of it applies to today?
Are you implying that we *do * understand homosexuality today? I hope not. That would be stretching the word “understanding” a bit too far.

I agree that they must have had a different understanding then. But, given the question is “Does the Bible speak against same-sex sexuality?” the answer is yes.

Is the Bible’s answer vague? I would say no. But even if you were to say yes, the Tradition of the Church is not vague on this. But that is beyond the scope of our question, isn’t it?
Yet we reap the benefits of modern knowledge and take a different approach today.
The *benefits * of modern knowledge?!? Come on. We have forgotten at least as much as we have learned, over the course of history. I’m afraid that the education the modern mind will give you on homosexuality is largely based on political correctness and hedonism. In comparison, the Bible seems remarkably dispassionate and clearthinking.
 
“Does the Bible speak against same-sex sexuality?” the answer is yes.
You are consistently missing my point. The question should be phrased, to obtain your desirable answer, “Does the bible speak against same-sex sex” then answer is yes.

The Bible does not speak out against same-sex sexuality because no such idea registered! Therefore, even its condemnation of same-sex sex becomes suspect for it did not even understand that which it was condemning!

When the bible talks about homosexual sex it viewed it as heterosexual people engaging in this act because they chose to have these inclinations. Think of those implications! The ancients would have had a real reason to fear this, for it meant that ANYBODY could abandon their natural inclinations and pursue the same-sex. From this point of view, it was a real threat to the survival of society. Today, however, we know that the number of people with a homosexual orientation is very small and that it is not some kind of “lust epidemic” that will sweep through the world and turn everyone gay.

Obviously we do not know everything about homosexuality today, but we know significantly more, and this does include knowledge of same-sex orienatation, regardless of where you think this orientation comes from (nature v. environment).
 
Could you provide some evidence for what you say instead of just saying it? Particularly evidence from the Bible?
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Gnosis:
You are consistently missing my point. The question should be phrased, to obtain your desirable answer, “Does the bible speak against same-sex sex” then answer is yes.

The Bible does not speak out against same-sex sexuality because no such idea registered! Therefore, even its condemnation of same-sex sex becomes suspect for it did not even understand that which it was condemning!

When the bible talks about homosexual sex it viewed it as heterosexual people engaging in this act because they chose to have these inclinations. Think of those implications! The ancients would have had a real reason to fear this, for it meant that ANYBODY could abandon their natural inclinations and pursue the same-sex. From this point of view, it was a real threat to the survival of society. Today, however, we know that the number of people with a homosexual orientation is very small and that it is not some kind of “lust epidemic” that will sweep through the world and turn everyone gay.

Obviously we do not know everything about homosexuality today, but we know significantly more, and this does include knowledge of same-sex orienatation, regardless of where you think this orientation comes from (nature v. environment).
 
Gnosis, your argument seems to be that we can’t use the bible because the word homosexual didn’t exist then, and you infer A LOT of things about what the ancients must have known or understood based on the wording.

This is like saying that the concept of Road Rage didn’t exist back then, so we can’t use the bible to say the behavior is wrong. Since back then there was no concept of what we, in our enlightened, more educated state, understand as Road Rage. That’s just nonsense.

Just because the word didn’t exist doesn’t mean you can assume they didn’t understand the emotions and actions they were talking about. I think it is quite a stretch for you to assert that they clearly only meant one very narrow understanding when there is no way to prove what they did or didn’t know. The word Trinity didn’t exist yet either, but the concept is clearly there.
 
Obviously we can deduce from the Bible that road rage would be wrong, as Jesus spoke about anger against our brother and how we must resolve it.

However, the Bible talks of heterosexuals who engage in homosexual activity out of excessive lust, who choose to have those inclinations. In this society, where the ideas of individuality had yet to develop, this was an obvious threat to the survival of the community. Undoubtly, this influenced their moral evaluation. Amongst other things it was associated with pagan fertility rites and contradicted their assumptions about a male’s anatomical function dictating his agressive role in bed.

I am not saying that the bible should be commenting on every single possible “sinful” scenario, but what I am saying is that the modern homosexual relationship, of which sexual interaction is only a part, is so different than what the ancients had considered when evaluating same-sex sexual interaction, that we can not deduce a moral proclaimation from the bible on this topic.

If the ancients had seen homosexuality as a matter of orientation, as feelings that one does not choose to have, and relations as a romantic involvement that included the traits of monogamy (though not neccesarily an ancient ideal), love and commitment, in addition to understanding that the homosexual orientation does not arise out of idolatry and is not something that can be “caught” or spread to the general populace. If these authors undertood that being penetrated in sex was not something that degraded one partner, or reduced them to a “passive” partner in the sexual act, if the ancients also understood that a female was capable of carrying on the family lineage through her own genetic contributions, then perhaps, I do not think it is a stretch to say, that their moral evaluation of homosexuality may have been different. Or at least, it is reasonable to say, in light of this knowledge, that the bible offers no real insights into the modern homosexual relationship (that is, in regards to gay marriage)

What evidence do we have of the biblical world’s views of sexuality? Cultural anthropology and an analysis of various ancient sources paints us this portrait:

I have already presented some evidence of this outlook in the bible. Mainly, if you refer to Romans 1, where Paul condmens idolatry, he names out homosexual relations. The way he words it is that “women exchanged their natural relations with men, and in the same way men abandonded their natural relations with women and were consumed with lust for one another” The key words being “abandoned” and “exchanged”. These unnatural inclinations, as explained by Paul, were initated by the idolaters themselves for both words imply a conscious intiative on their part.

I suggest you read “Homoeroticism in the Biblical World” by Martti Nissinen. Its a very balanced book, in that he doesn’t offer an agenda of any kind. The book doesn’t seek to make any moral evaluations one way or another.

For example, he acknowledges that homosexual activity was associated with pagan rites. But states that other explanations and possibilities must be sought, such as ancient socio-sexual taboos, the identity struggle of the Israelite community ect. (page 42)

I recently consulted “Sex and the Bible” by Gerald Laure

“Biblical Ethics and Homosexuality: Listening to Scripture” ed. by Robert L. Brawley

As well, feel free to consult any scholary sources to show me that the authors of the bible had a different understanding of homosexuality and human sexuality in general than what i have put forth.
 
I’m getting slightly lost by some of the discussion.
Scripture clearly states that homosexual acts are a mortal sin (Cor 6:9-10). It surely does not take a rocket scientist therefore to conclude that same sex marriages (even though not specifically mentioned) are also condemned.
 
The Bible clearly states adultery is a sin. However, multiple wives as well as multiple misstresses (combubines? sp?) were part of Bronze Age culture and accepted in Saul’s and David’s time. The very definition of “marriage” was completely different in the Bronze Age mid-east. The closest modern comparison is the multiple marriages of Arabian cultures. Powerful men had many wives.

Neither Saul, David or other OT kings thought sexual exculsivity was any part of their marriages. At least on the man’s part . Ancient brides to kings or chiefs did not expect monogamy from their husbands. Even brides to peasant farmers did not expect monogamy. Marriage was a mix of politics and money. Some children resulting from the marriages were legitimate. Some were not.

I think posters need to understand that marriages in the time of the writing of the Bible did not resemble in any sense marriages today. Property, money, politics, clan alliances formed the basis of marriages in this era.
 
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MikeinSD:
The Bible clearly states adultery is a sin. However, multiple wives as well as multiple misstresses (combubines? sp?) were part of Bronze Age culture and accepted in Saul’s and David’s time. The very definition of “marriage” was completely different in the Bronze Age mid-east. The closest modern comparison is the multiple marriages of Arabian cultures. Powerful men had many wives.

Neither Saul, David or other OT kings thought sexual exculsivity was any part of their marriages. At least on the man’s part . Ancient brides to kings or chiefs did not expect monogamy from their husbands. Even brides to peasant farmers did not expect monogamy. Marriage was a mix of politics and money. Some children resulting from the marriages were legitimate. Some were not.

I think posters need to understand that marriages in the time of the writing of the Bible did not resemble in any sense marriages today. Property, money, politics, clan alliances formed the basis of marriages in this era.
But there have never been same sex marriages. These are an abomination and an affront to God.
 
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