Does the Bible Alone Condemn Same-sex "Marriage"?

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thistle:
But there have never been same sex marriages. These are an abomination and an affront to God.
Bronze Age culture in the mid east did not have marriage as modern Americans understand the term. Your logic is circular.

Gnosis’ statement is correct. There is no prohibition on gay relationships in the Bible since “gay” and “homosexual” are late 19th century terms. The very concept of a modern gay love simply could not have been envisioned in the Bronze Age.

The very concept of modern heterosexual marriage simply could not have been forseen in Bronze Age Israel either.
 
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MikeinSD:
Bronze Age culture in the mid east did not have marriage as modern Americans understand the term. Your logic is circular.

Gnosis’ statement is correct. There is no prohibition on gay relationships in the Bible since “gay” and “homosexual” are late 19th century terms. The very concept of a modern gay love simply could not have been envisioned in the Bronze Age.

The very concept of modern heterosexual marriage simply could not have been forseen in Bronze Age Israel either.
Its irrelevant that the concept of same sex marriages was not around then. By definition if same sex sexual acts are forbidden then that would have applied to same sex marriages had the concept been around. The fact that God made Adam and Eve and not Adam and Adam or Eve and Eve and that all subsequent marital relationships were confined to men and women I think there is ample room to conclude that means same sex marriages were not allowed.
By the way I don’t agree with the expression you used “modern gay love”. That should be “modern gay sin”.
 
You’re using circular reasoning. You’re saying that the bible condemns same-sex sexual relations, therefore it must condemn same-sex marriage.

However the authors of the bible had no understanding of what a “homosexual” was, therefore, they had a flawed understanding of what a homosexual relationship was, and, in logical conclusion, had a flawed understanding of homosexual sex.

Therefore we can not extend the biblical condemnation on homosexual sexual relations to the modern gay relationship, for they based their moral stance against it on imformtation that is simply not correct.
 
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Gnosis:
You’re using circular reasoning. You’re saying that the bible condemns same-sex sexual relations, therefore it must condemn same-sex marriage.

However the authors of the bible had no understanding of what a “homosexual” was, therefore, they had a flawed understanding of what a homosexual relationship was, and, in logical conclusion, had a flawed understanding of homosexual sex.

Therefore we can not extend the biblical condemnation on homosexual sexual relations to the modern gay relationship, for they based their moral stance against it on imformtation that is simply not correct.
Why do you say they had a flawed understanding of homosexual sex? They knew sex between two men or two women was evil and a mortal sin. Same sex (homosexual) sexual acts are not a modern concept but a long time known disgusting act.
You are arguing that a same sex act can be separated from a same sex relationship. I don’t agree with that because the relationship is not one of love but of lust which is the act.
 
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thistle:
Why do you say they had a flawed understanding of homosexual sex? They knew sex between two men or two women was evil and a mortal sin. Same sex (homosexual) sexual acts are not a modern concept but a long time known disgusting act.
You are arguing that a same sex act can be separated from a same sex relationship. I don’t agree with that because the relationship is not one of love but of lust which is the act.
Bronze Age Israel did not have modern homosexuality. The writings in the Bible cannot condemn what the authors did not know. What they did know was that same sex sexual acts were often parts of pagan worship. And as Gnosis said, the ancient authors thought all humans were heterosexual. In a time when ancients considered sperm to be little men, they thought wasting sperm in a same sex act as illicit.

Curious no one has followed up on the evolution of adultery in biblical writings. In the OT, God himself directly spoke to men with multiple wives and comubines (sp?). Now, we consider men who marry multiple wives as bigamists. So was God wrong to work with men with multiple wives? Why God talking to men whose relationships with many women based in lust? When did God decide polygamy is wrong? If polygamy is wrong now, why wasn’t back then?

My point is the very idea of modern marriage did not exist in Bronze Age societies. The idea of gay relationships (vs same sex acts) also did not exist. Yr. argument is circular.
 
No the Bible is not the only Ancient Near Eastern Text that condems homosexuality, read this book.

The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics, Robert AJ Gagnon
[Gagnon’s] massive tome, written in non-polemical tone, is the first comprehensive exegetical treatment of this intractable issue of homosexuality. . . . Gagnon’s book may also be the last of its kind, since it does so much, and further work likely will address only aspects of the issue, rather than seek so complete a treatment. . . . Gagnon’s thorough work excels in 1) careful textual analysis and intertextual considerations; 2) exacting detail in historical-critical investigations, taking into account cultural backgrounds and ideological contexts of relevant 3) contemporary literature cited, whether Ancient Near East, Greco-Roman, or early Judaism; and 3) extensive engagement with most all scholarly contributions to date. . . . Virtually no stone is left unturned on this topic. . . . The range of arguments considered and his careful analysis [of Paul and Deutero-Paul] sets a bench-mark for all further study of these texts. . . . Whether we agree or disagree with Gagnon’s views, his arguments are clear, cogent, and persuasive.”—Willard M. Swartley, Professor of New Testament at Associated Mennonite Biblical Seminary; excerpted from review in Mennonite Quarterly Review 76:2 (April 2002): 215-22.
72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:ripqZdMu9TIJ:www.robgagnon.net/Reviews/homoblurbs.pdf+Homosexuality+book+exegesis+Robert+Gagnon&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Homosexuality+book+exegesis+Robert+Gagnon
 
One need only look to Genesis to see that Marriage is between a man and a woman which has the purpose of “being fruitful and multiply”. Since homosexual so-called marriage is not between a man and a woman and does not multiply it simply is NOT a biblical, nor christian marriage.
 
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Gnosis:
This conclusion is easily reached.

Simply put, ancient near east societies had no concept of homosexuality, the term homosexual wasn’t even coined until the 18th Century, the term heterosexual even after that. Everyone’s “heterosexuality” was thus assumed. There was however, the idea of same-sex sexual interaction, which was obviously prohibited. If you look to the bible, there is no word for someone who engages exclusively in same-sex sex.

When looking to the laws in the Old Testament, we know that there was no concept of individuality. Everything was done for the sake of the community, for the community alone ensured your survival in a very dangerous world. Homosexual acts would have presented a threat to the community as the infant mortality rate was high and reproduction had to be ensured. Secondly, a male taking a passive role was seen to degrade his masculinity (again, back to flawed ancient notions of human sexuality: passive vs. agressive)

When the Hebrew law was written, homosexual acts were associated with fertility cultic practices, as well as a method for a male to subject an opponent to humilation (see Sodom and Gibeah). It is likely that they saw it as a transgression against God’s established laws.

But what must be kept in mind is that the morality of same-sex interaction was rooted in the ancient view of sexuality. As I pointed out, the key words Paul uses are “abandoned” and “exchanged” natural sexual relations. Same-sex lust was a choice made by those who worshipped idols (according to Paul). To the authors of the Bible there was no concept of romantic involvement, there were no “homosexuals” who wanted to live together for life as a committed couple. There were only heterosexual people who chose to have these unnatural feelings (choices stemming from idolatry) and chose to indulge in them.

Paul was likely aware of Greek pedastry, which often involved the exploitation of a younger male for the expenses of an older man (who himself was likely married). Even in Greek society where same-sex love was acknowledged, there was no “homosexual”, for it was presupposed that homosexual relationships were simply a stage that one would progress through before settling down with a woman.

What we can conclude is that the bible offers a condemnation of same-sex interaction when it is: exploitive, degrading, used for humiliation or associated with pagan rites. For these were the only contexts of which the biblical authors would have been aware. Their presumptions about human sexuality naturally led to their moral evaluation.

The modern homosexual relationship is very different. This involves two people who engage in a romantic relationship, who are committed to each other, who are both homosexual in their orientation (only have feelings for the same sex) and who engage in sex that is not considered to degrade one parnter (the ancients assumed the one penetrated was of lesser worth)

What does the Bible say of these relationships, and in turn, same-sex marriage? Nothing, for these relationships were literally unconceivable at this period in time.
Nicely done.
 
Daniel Marsh:
One need only look to Genesis to see that Marriage is between a man and a woman which has the purpose of “being fruitful and multiply”. Since homosexual so-called marriage is not between a man and a woman and does not multiply it simply is NOT a biblical, nor christian marriage.
Unless they were to adopt and raise a family that way maybe? Hmmm.
 
Ancient views of sexuality would have certainly answered these questions different than you. Yet we reap the benefits of modern knowledge and take a different approach today.
I think the ancient views of sexuality still resound in the church today with regard to views on sex, contraception, etc.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
Unless they were to adopt and raise a family that way maybe? Hmmm.
So you are saying the sexual union of gay men produce children?

:confused:
 
This discussion has strayed from the original question. In reply to the original posting, The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that “tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are always disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementary. Under no circumstances can they be approved.”(section 2357)
 
Actually, the original question had nothing to do with tradition. The question was whether or not scripture condemns same-sex marriage.
 
Thistle,
Why do you say they had a flawed understanding of homosexual sex? They knew sex between two men or two women was evil and a mortal sin.
You are consistently showing an inability to comprehend the core of this argument. It is indeed recognized that homosexual sex was condemned. However, this judgement is based on an archaic understanding of human sexuality, as I extensively discussed in previous posts. Therefore this condemnation must be seen in the light of the ancient’s flawed assumptions.
 
Actually, the original question was, “does the Bible alone condemn same-sex marriage.” And, actually, the Catholic Church does as well. I just came across Pope John Paul’s statement on same-sex marriage, which is available at:

catholicnewsagency.com/document.php?n=2
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Gnosis:
Actually, the original question had nothing to do with tradition. The question was whether or not scripture condemns same-sex marriage.
 
I’m sorry, I guess you’ll think I’m as dense as everyone else here about the argument put forth. I do understand the point you are trying to make, I guess I just don’t agree with it.

The bible is believed to be the holy, inspired Word of God. Therefore, if God says relations between men and men and women and women are wrong and an abomination - then they are wrong. It doesn’t matter what the ancient’s understanding was of a “homosexual” or “same-sex ‘marriage’” was. The act of expressing that “love” is unnatural.

It only stands to reason that if 2 ancients of the same sex “love” each other and intend on spending the rest of their days together, then they would want to express that “love” in the most intimate way - sexually. Well, according to God’s own words, that act of so called love is an abomination in His eyes and is therefore condemned. So it would seem that this whole “relationship” thing is mute because the main focus of this kind of relationship is the sexual act and is condemned by God - therefore - same-sex “marriages” is against the natural law created by God and against God’s own Word.

Just because the ancients had no understanding of the kinds of relationships we see today doesn’t make it any less wrong - according to God. His inspired word was not just for the ancients. It was to be read and followed by all creation until the Second Coming - whenever that may be. The message of the bible doesn’t have a time stamp on it.
 
Hi DianJo, if you read Gagnon’s book, The Bible and Homosexual Practice: Texts and Hermeneutics, Robert AJ Gagnon, you will see that the “ancients” did understand homosexual relations as we do today. In fact, in ancient literature there was a wide range of understandings going on, and the so-called gay bible scholars are simply ignoring the facts. They pick and choose what they can make fit into their pet theory and ignore that which does not fit.
 
Hi Daniel!

Thanks for the recommendation, sounds interesting. Honestly, though, the information given in this thread, I do find interesting but troublesome. I have a hard time believeing that the ancients didn’t have “grasp” on homosexual relationships and therefore couldn’t explain that same sex anything was wrong but I do understand the premise provided. Like I said, I’m just not convinced.

I have so much reading to do that I find much more productive and interesting - like the 3 volume work of the Early Church Fathers, I might never get around to the book you’ve recommended, but then again, I might! I’m sure the ECF’s have something to say about the subject.
 
Please, provide some information on this forum that shows that the authors of the bible had an understanding of “homosexuals”, that is, in the sense of the orientation.
 
Gnosis,

You’re a smart person…why don’t you see the gaping hole in your argument?
  1. You claim that “homosexual relationships” were completely unknown then (and that therefore the Bible is unable to speak to the question).
  2. You claim that the Bible only speaks to people choosing to live their lifestyles “against nature”
  3. You claim that homosexuality is nature vs. environment
Now, if it is nature, it’s natural, and therefore “homosexuality” has been around as long as mankind has. This would make your postulate 1 completely absurd (as there would most certainly be BrokeBack Bedouins at some point). However, if 1 is wrong, your 2 is also wrong.

IF, however, it is not nature, but rather environment, then “homosexuality” is a choice (so to speak) and therefore the Bible speaks to it (see your postulate 2).

Am I missing something, or is your logic really that bad?

God Bless,
RyanL
 
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