Does the Bible Alone Condemn Same-sex "Marriage"?

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Daniel Marsh:
So you are saying the sexual union of gay men produce children?

:confused:
LOL, no, not unless there have been some advances in science that I don’t know about. What I was suggesting is that they could have and raise a family in today’s society.
 
They pick and choose what they can make fit into their pet theory and ignore that which does not fit.
I think that goes both ways, actually.
 
Actually Gnosis’ logic is excellent. His points are:
  1. Bronze Age societies did not know about sexual orientation. People were expected to marry. Period. The Bible reflects and repeats this Bronze Age social expectation.
  2. For a gay man or lesbian to marry a member of the opposite sex is unnatural to them.
  3. Psychiatrists and psychologists believe sexual orientation results from a mix of nature and environment. It’s not an either/or question.
 
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MikeinSD:
Actually Gnosis’ logic is excellent. His points are:
  1. Bronze Age societies did not know about sexual orientation. People were expected to marry. Period. The Bible reflects and repeats this Bronze Age social expectation.
  2. For a gay man or lesbian to marry a member of the opposite sex is unnatural to them.
  3. Psychiatrists and psychologists believe sexual orientation results from a mix of nature and environment. It’s not an either/or question.
Yes, it makes sense to me as well.
 
As I read this whole post rather patiently, being especially careful not to impose my personal feelings on the subject, it occurred to me that Gnosis answered his own question in a round about way. He kept posting that there was no understanding of modern marriage or modern homosexuality back then. He may be correct, I don’t know. What I do know is that homosexuality must have been so unthinkable to a society of people that understood the meaning of duty. There are certain truths that were primary to life.
God established One Holy Couple as a man and a woman.
Part of the punishment for original sin (lack of TRUST in God) was pain in childbirth, another was leaving the Garden (exile from a place where the needs of life were easily met) to toil on the land, where man being the bigger of man and woman was to protect her (hmmm not the first time Gods punishment included a lesson to learn)
God commanded us to be fruitful and multiply.
Obed was instantly killed for wasting his seed.
Where am I going with this? OK…follow please…duty was very important, so important to the Israelites that they even arranged marriages. There was no question that a man or a woman would remain without a spouse to persue a homosexual relationship because 1. God said be fruitful and multiply…offspring were necessary to the survival of the Israelites, to tend the livestock, work the land etc… 2. If “spilling the seed” outside of a woman was a sin punishable by death from God…how could one justify man on man sex? 3. Women were not thought to have a sexual drive or be agressive so how would woman on woman sex be anything but a practice involving pagan worship or ideas?

See where I am going with this? It was so not an issue that it wasn’t mentioned in the Bible specifically because they would never have comprehended that anyone would exclusively be with their same sex…to the exclusion of a spouse.
Now that being said, I think we can confidently say that same sex relationships are flawed and are against God’s plan for us just from God’s actions alone. God created woman to be a mate for man and God struck Obed dead for his sin as well…how much clearer does it have to be that this is not what God wants for us?
 
I just wonder where the evidence is that this all is true of Israel.
I could see someone several thousand years from now looking at twenty first century Brazilian society and then saying that what is true of Brazilian society is true of twenty first century American society. But of course there is a great cultural difference between countries. Remarks made vaguely about ancient society (even if the remarks being made about it are all true, though I question this), wouldn’t necessarily apply to ancient Israelite society. In some ways it was quite different from its surrounding countries in its insights and values, in some part because of its history and society which was strongly affected by its faith in God and what God had said to them.
By the way, I prefer the anthropology seen in the Pope’s statement on homosexual marriage, which, actually, is based on Scripture and the natural law, rather than the few books being quoted. This is located at

catholicnewsagency.com/document.php?n=2
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ReformedCatholic:
Yes, it makes sense to me as well.
 
You’re a smart person…why don’t you see the gaping hole in your argument?
Indeed, homosexuality was grossly misunderstood in ancient times, to the extent that it was only viewed of in terms of the sexual acts and not the orientation. This, however, does not negate the view that homosexuals existed all throughout history. However, due to the nature of the socities in which they lived, it was not possible for them to express their orientaion in any way other than the occassional sexual act with another person of the same sex. This does not mean that there were not people whose sexual energies were directed only to the same sex and that they did not wish to spend their entire life with someone of the same-sex in the same way that modern homosexuals do. It only means that, in part because of societies misunderstanding of homosexual acts, they were prevented from doing so. The intense social barriers against homosexuality, therefore, aided and perpepuated the flawed manner in which it was understood. . My argument is not flawed then, in the manner that you suggest, if you are willing to examine the issue more carefully.

BlestOne
See where I am going with this? It was so not an issue that it wasn’t mentioned in the Bible specifically because they would never have comprehended that anyone would exclusively be with their same sex
You can’t refute actual historical and cross-cultural evidence simply by arriving at your own logical conclusion. Yes, many homosexuals likely married because of a sense of duty to the community, however, that does not negate the fact that homosexuality was not properly understood. The evidence supports that ancient Israel and the Near East had the understanding of homosexual acts that I put forth, (the central point being no concept of orienatation)

Secondly, if you consider this “act of duty” to be the noble perogative, than tell me, how quickly would you take to a spouse that has no sexual attraction to you? Would you willingly wed someone who was doing so only out of their sense of duty? Would you care if your husband or wife completely fabricated your sexual intimacy?
I just wonder where the evidence is that this all is true of Israel.
I could see someone several thousand years from now looking at twenty first century Brazilian society and then saying that what is true of Brazilian society is true of twenty first century American society
Yes, Brazil and and America are different socieities. However, when we study Western civilization do we not look to more than a single nation? Do we not look to the whole of Europe? Yes, Israel and other ancient near east socities had their differences, but they are similar enough to be categorized under the same umbrella. Israel was much more like its pagan neighbours than we usually conceive. There was the monotheistic ideal, and then there was the on ground reality in which paganism and idol worship were rampant. Even the bible reports this and declares this to be the reason for Israel’s destruction. All ancient near eastern societies shared many central roots, and all evidence shows that ideas of human sexuality were shared between them. Again, if we examine the phrasing in the Bible, it suggests that its authors understood homosexuality in the way that I have put forth.
 
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MikeinSD:
Actually Gnosis’ logic is excellent. His points are:
  1. Bronze Age societies did not know about sexual orientation. People were expected to marry. Period. The Bible reflects and repeats this Bronze Age social expectation.
The logic breaks down on point one, if you read the gagnon book you will find that they did know about “sexual orientation” and some celebrated whereas others told them to fight against it.
 
Please cite information from the gagnon book then in regards to them knowing about sexual orientation. Just because people who cross-dressed or bent gender roles in ancient societies were often celebrated (in specific communities) does not mean that they were aware of orientation.
 
Genesis 2:22-24 (NAB)
22 The LORD God then built up into a woman the rib that he had taken from the man. When he brought her to the man, 23 the man said: “This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called ‘woman,’ for out of ‘her man’ this one has been taken.” 24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.

Matthew 19:4-6 (NAB)
4 He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”
 
Well, its good that you can quote the Gospel of Heterosexuality, however, that does not confront the issues that I have raised. If your going to accept the biblical authors flawed understanding of homosexuality and declare it to be from God, I would think that you should also accept their flawed understanding of human sexuality in general, which includes the subordinate status of women,
 
The Bible condemns homosexuality, but as for gay marriage, I don’t know if the pubic of those times had invented such an odd thing.
 
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La-Petite-Fleur:
The Bible condemns homosexuality, but as for gay marriage, I don’t know if the pubic of those times had invented such an odd thing.
:rotfl: Sorry but can’t help laughing at the typo!!
 
:o Big oops! Public people, public. Lol. I’m going to go hide now…
 
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Gnosis:
Secondly, if you consider this “act of duty” to be the noble perogative, than tell me, how quickly would you take to a spouse that has no sexual attraction to you? Would you willingly wed someone who was doing so only out of their sense of duty? Would you care if your husband or wife completely fabricated your sexual intimacy?
Obviously you haven’t read many of my posts… As a matter of fact I have experienced this, and was prepared to live out my life this way. Fortunately for me, my very chaste marriage ended when he abandoned his family. Bet you didn’t expect that answer…but nonetheless it is true. I offered it up to God and trusted him with the details… BTW…recently married to a totally loving man now. God does hear prayers!!!
 
Wait, he abandonded his family and his sense of duty, and you say this is fortunate? Now you have a loving man? Isn’t that selfish of you? You consider your husband, your children’s father, abandoning of the family a fortunate thing?

And you honestly believe that a chaste marriage is a good thing? That its healthy? Would you have married your former husband if you knew at the time he was gay?

I don’t intend this to be a personal attack, and I truly believe that its a good thing you now have a loving husband, i simply can’t reconcile this with the logic you have put forth.
 
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Gnosis:
Wait, he abandonded his family and his sense of duty, and you say this is fortunate? Now you have a loving man? Isn’t that selfish of you? You consider your husband, your children’s father, abandoning of the family a fortunate thing?

And you honestly believe that a chaste marriage is a good thing? That its healthy? Would you have married your former husband if you knew at the time he was gay?

I don’t intend this to be a personal attack, and I truly believe that its a good thing you now have a loving husband, i simply can’t reconcile this with the logic you have put forth.
I know this may be hard to believe but yes…we are very fortunate! I loved my ex husband, don’t get me wrong. He unfortunately was and is a very sick man. I have divulged alot of this on other posts but here is the condensed version…I was an insecure naive young lady. My ex was a charming liar. I fell head over heels for him and his lies. I married him, within a very short time I started finding out about the lies. Like the one that he said he had never been married or had any children…lie or the I am Catholic lie, better known as the I used to be a pagan high priest but I am Catholic again lie. Then there was the inability to hold down a job. I supported us for the entire marriage of 13 yrs. I would never leave him because I made a vow…but it was a very difficult life. When he choose to leave I admit, at first I didn’t want him to but it was actually a relief. By the time he left, I had already found out about most of the lies but every now and then, even now I find out more. He was married when he married me, he had a daughter with his first wife. He “forgot” to divorce her before he married me, just like he forgot to mention her when I asked if he had ever been married or had any kids. He had some pretty serious mental disorders and he couldn’t get close to anyone including myself, so sex was out of the question. Before you ask, we had children because I scheduled them, mostly because I wanted children but partly to have sex. Yes I was that lonely! We actually went years between having sex. By the time the children were born he had come out of the closet about his religion as well…He actually thought of himself as a pagan high priest. OK, all the justifying in the world still makes this one hard to take…but still I stayed, kidded myself into believing that he was a good dad and the kids needed him… I would never leave him and yes through all this I still loved him but it was very hard. When he choose to leave, I had to accept that he was sicker than I could handle. I pray for him, but yes I am glad he is gone and yes the whole family is much happier without him.

To answer your questions…
Does what I have done seem selfish? Maybe, God forgive me!
I didn’t choose a chaste marriage but yes I accepted it.
Maybe not healthy, but no one ever died from lack of sex.
No I wouldn’t have married him, but because he was already married to someone else and because he was not well enough mentally to be in a marriage.

Don’t worry, I didn’t take it as a personal attack. I just wanted to point out that even though I am not a lesbian, in a way I could understand what any homosexual is called to after living quite a number of years this way. I also was pointing out that in some cultures duty is much much more important than personal happiness or freedom.
God Bless…
 
Sexual relations between members of the same sex is a sin, regardless of your sexual preference. It’s just that for the most part the only people seemingly affected are the ones that actually want to have same sex relations. But it applies to them just as everyone else. Therefore the bible cannot be said to be bigoted because of this. The reason probably has to do with the act not being procreative nor unitive. Marriage is not valid without sexual relations, so it’s impossible for two members of the same sex to get married.
 
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Gnosis:
The modern notion of a homosexual relationship was non-existant in the society in which the bible was written. When the bible was written the authors knew of same-sex sexual acts, however, they **had no grasp **of a “homosexual”, as in a person who is soley attracted to a member of the same sex and seeks to engage in a romantic, life long relationship akin to the idea of a heterosexual couple. Again, the biblical writers did not see persons who engaged in same-sex sex as “homosexuals”, rather they saw them as heterosexuals (for everyone’s heterosexuality was assumed) who engaged in sexual relations of a homosexual nature out of excessive lust, as a consequence of idolatory, as a part of a pagan cultic practice, or to establish dominance over a male opponent.

Since we do know that the biblical authors saw homosexual acts in this context, we can recognize that they are considerably removed from the modern idea of a homosexual couple. Thus, while we can use the bible to condemn homosexual acts that are exploitive, degrading, used to dominate or associated with cults, we can not say with any degree of certainty what the Bible would have to say about a committed, monogomous, loving homosexual couple (in the sense of orientation, not soley the sexual act, as well as “couple” in the sense of two people engaged in a romantic relationship, not simply two people engaging in sex) Simply because the Bible has nothing to say about this.

Ideas about human sexuality in ancient societies are radically different from today. For example, it was assumed that in sexual intercourse, the female was always the passive partner and the male the agressive conqueror, this assumption being based on the anatomical functions of the respective sexes. However, this ignores the reciprocal nature of sex in which both partners are offering eachother up to one another, both giving and both recieving at the same time.

Secondly, ancient societies believed that the male alone produced the substance of reproduction. The semen was believed to contain all the matierial neccessary to create a child. Females were seen soley as the vehicle through which a child would be born. Hence, semen is refered to as “seed”, for it was thought that the uterus was “soil” in which the child would grow.

Both of these assumptions had dramatic implications as to how society functioned and how sex was viewed. The notion of a female as the passive reciever who contributed no substance to the creation of a child helped to create and re-inforce a patriarchial society in which everything was passed through the male (as only a male was capable of passing on “genes”)

When we return to homosexuality, we can see that flawed notions, such as homosexual acts arise out of excessive lust and that they always involve heterosexual people, undoubtly influenced how those societies would understand the morality of same-sex sexual interaction. This was not an issue of one person oriented to one sex or another, this was an issue of men or women choosing to be attratced to the same sex and acting upon it. They were willingly “going against nature”, not only in the act but in very decision to have those attractions.

If we look to Paul, he says

The key words here are “exchanged” and “abandoned”. What these societies assumed were that these sexual desires were the perogative of any human being; heterosexual people (the ONLY sexuality) choosing to engage in homosexual acts. If you read Paul closely, he makes it clear that these bad choices were the result of worshipping false gods and turning away from God.

We often look to the Bible as though it is some kind of encyclopedia, or question and answer book. - insert moral dilemna here and you will recieve the appropriate instruction. However, to study the bible without being thoroughly aware of the context in which it was written, without understanding how the author viewed human sexuality, the natural world, society, law ect. is to actually overlook the author’s intentions and blindly apply things to the modern world which do not neccessarily apply and were not neccessarily the author’s original intention.

Thus we can reasonably say that the bible offers no real proclaimation on the issue of modern homosexual relationships.
Dear Gnosis: The Church, by way of the authority given to the apostles, has determined that Marriage is limited to the union of one man and one woman. It is ridiculous to assert that the author of Sacred Scripture did not know of the" modern notion of a commited, loving relationship" between two persons of the opposite sex or the so called “orientation” of such persons. The author of Sacred Scripture is God Himself using and directing the human authors of the Bible. The idea of “a homosexual orientation” is nothing more than a politically correct invention. Same sex attraction is a disorder. The idea that morality changes with the times is equally ridiculous. God saves.
 
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mike182d:
Not necessarily. If you have ever read Theology of the Body, it is quite evident in Scripture what the purpose, function, and beauty of human sexuality was designed to be. It is not always necessary to deny something with a directly negative claim. Saying “it is good to help the poor” is the same as saying “it is bad not to help the poor.”

Since the practice of homosexuality exists contrary to how proper human sexuality is defined and revealed in the whole Scripture it is quite easy to deduce that anything contrary to this vision would be wrong.

The Bible doesn’t have to say specifically “living with a member of the same sex in such a way as to act married while not actually being married is wrong” in order to get that very same point across.
Very good, mike182d. The Bible makes quite clear the purpose and the proper context for the use of the gift of human sexuality. God saves.
 
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