Does the Bible have errors in it?

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Led Zeppelin75:
Do you think it is a mortal sin to hope outside of the faith?
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I don’t think it would be a mortal sin to hope outside the faith, but it may be to hope in something that is contrary to the faith. Do you see the difference? I may hope that it will snow. That would be hoping “outside the faith”, but I can’t hope the Morman Church is right, because my faith tells me it is not right.
The Catholic Church does theach that a mortal sin is “a serious evil”, but considers alot of non-evil things mortal sins. The consequesces of hoping agaisnt the faith will not lead to loss of faith. It is a diffrence of heaven and hell, or at the very least purgatory http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif.
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You said hoping against faith will not lead to a loss of faith. It seems to me that it would, although it is not something I have ever studied, so I can’t say with certainty.

Also, you said that the Church considers a lot of non-evil things to be mortal sins. I think if you look at things a little differently you will understand why certain things are sins.

It helps to view things from the perspective of their intent. For example, sexual relations. Many people think sins against the 6th and 9th commandments are not really sins; but they are. Marital relations were intended for a reason - to work with God as “pro-creators”. God actually allows us to take part in creation!

Since creation is such a wonderful thing, God has attached a pleasure to this act of procreation. Man sins when he steals the pleasure without the possibility of procreation. Why? Because he is perverting the intent. God attached a pleasure to the act, and we are stealing the pleasure without performing the act within the boundaries God has set up. If one does the act outside of marriage, they are disobeying God, for the sake of the pleasure. If someone performs the act within marriage, but uses contraception, they too are perverting the act.

Everything has an intent, and if we knowingly pervert the intent, we sin. When you understand why the Church teaches what it does, the teachings will begin to makes sense - although you may have to think about it for a while before it does.

And look at the consequences of doing what the Church says not to do. Look at all of the kids who grow up without a dad; and look at all of the abortions, and the spread of aids. What was the cause of this? Not obeying what God said. If people only had sexual relations within marriage we would not have as many of these problems.

Those who reject the teachings of the Church will usually be the ones who suffer the consequences. I wonder what the percentage of faithful Catholic is who have aids? How many Catholics who obey the Churches teaching on the 6 and 9th commandments have abortions, or children outside of marriage? It is the ones who scoff at the Churches teachings that suffer the consequences.
 
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RSiscoe:
I don’t think it would be a mortal sin to hope outside the faith, but it may be to hope in something that is contrary to the faith. Do you see the difference? I may hope that it will snow. That would be hoping “outside the faith”, but I can’t hope the Morman Church is right, because my faith tells me it is not right.

You said hoping against faith will not lead to a loss of faith. It seems to me that it would, although it is not something I have ever studied, so I can’t say with certainty.

Also, you said that the Church considers a lot of non-evil things to be mortal sins. I think if you look at things a little differently you will understand why certain things are sins.

It helps to view things from the perspective of their intent. For example, sexual relations. Many people think sins against the 6th and 9th commandments are not really sins; but they are. Marital relations were intended for a reason - to work with God as “pro-creators”. God actually allows us to take part in creation!

Since creation is such a wonderful thing, God has attached a pleasure to this act of procreation. Man sins when he steals the pleasure without the possibility of procreation. Why? Because he is perverting the intent. God attached a pleasure to the act, and we are stealing the pleasure without performing the act within the boundaries God has set up. If one does the act outside of marriage, they are disobeying God, for the sake of the pleasure. If someone performs the act within marriage, but uses contraception, they too are perverting the act.

Everything has an intent, and if we knowingly pervert the intent, we sin. When you understand why the Church teaches what it does, the teachings will begin to makes sense - although you may have to think about it for a while before it does.

And look at the consequences of doing what the Church says not to do. Look at all of the kids who grow up without a dad; and look at all of the abortions, and the spread of aids. What was the cause of this? Not obeying what God said. If people only had sexual relations within marriage we would not have as many of these problems.

Those who reject the teachings of the Church will usually be the ones who suffer the consequences. I wonder what the percentage of faithful Catholic is who have aids? How many Catholics who obey the Churches teaching on the 6 and 9th commandments have abortions, or children outside of marriage? It is the ones who scoff at the Churches teachings that suffer the consequences.
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I understand what you’re saying. But why is it a sin if it is done outside of marrage for the purpose of childbirth?
 
Led Zeppelin75:
I understand what you’re saying. But why is it a sin if it is done outside of marrage for the purpose of childbirth?
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That is a good question, since the act outside of marriage is neither contrary to nature, nor is it contrary to the purpose (intent).

The reason is it wrong is not because it is contrary to the intent,but because it is contrary to the law of God. Everything contrary to nature is against the Eternal law of God, but not everything against God’s law is contrary to nature.

Why did God make make it wrong to have relations outside of marriage? I do not know the mind of God, but if we use common sense we can probably understand.

Can you imagine the chaos of everyone having sexual relations with everyone whenever they desired it? With no moral restraints, it would be almost non-stop. Now, imagine how many problems would come from that. Since contraception is contrary to the intent, imagine all of the children that would result from non-stop “unprotected se*x”. It would be chaos. There would be very little family life and the structure of society would probably break down.

If you use your imagination you can probably see the chaos that would result from this. That may be why God limited it to marriage.
 
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RSiscoe:
That is a good question, since the act outside of marriage is neither contrary to nature, nor is it contrary to the purpose (intent).

The reason is it wrong is not because it is contrary to the intent,but because it is contrary to the law of God. Everything contrary to nature is against the Eternal law of God, but not everything against God’s law is contrary to nature.

Why did God make make it wrong to have relations outside of marriage? I do not know the mind of God, but if we use common sense we can probably understand.

Can you imagine the chaos of everyone having sexual relations with everyone whenever they desired it? With no moral restraints, it would be almost non-stop. Now, imagine how many problems would come from that. Since contraception is contrary to the intent, imagine all of the children that would result from non-stop “unprotected se*x”. It would be chaos. There would be very little family life and the structure of society would probably break down.

If you use your imagination you can probably see the chaos that would result from this. That may be why God limited it to marriage.
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There are two reasons why sex outside of marriage is wrong.

First, it involves THREE people – the two having sex and the potential child. That child has a right to a stable family, and the parents have a duty to provide it. And we can see that most children born out of wedlock have a statistically poor chance of ever achieving their potential – they are more likely to live in poverty, do poorly in school, drop out, use drugs and so on.

The second reason is that sex is linked to pair-bonding. When you have sex with someone, it affects you and her. Entering into such an arrangement with no intention of making it permanent is a bad thing to do.
 
vern humphrey:
There are two reasons why sex outside of marriage is wrong.

First, it involves THREE people – the two having sex and the potential child. That child has a right to a stable family, and the parents have a duty to provide it. And we can see that most children born out of wedlock have a statistically poor chance of ever achieving their potential – they are more likely to live in poverty, do poorly in school, drop out, use drugs and so on.

The second reason is that sex is linked to pair-bonding. When you have sex with someone, it affects you and her. Entering into such an arrangement with no intention of making it permanent is a bad thing to do.
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There you go Led - even more reasons why it is wrong.

Thanks Vern
 
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RSiscoe:
Can you imagine the chaos of everyone having sexual relations with everyone whenever they desired it? With no moral restraints, it would be almost non-stop. Now, imagine how many problems would come from that. Since contraception is contrary to the intent, imagine all of the children that would result from non-stop “unprotected se*x”. It would be chaos. There would be very little family life and the structure of society would probably break down.

If you use your imagination you can probably see the chaos that would result from this. That may be why God limited it to marriage.
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The “chaos” is seen, it happens. People have mulitiple sex partners. And from what I hear it happens even more in America.

It is against nature to wait until marrage for sex. We all know the sensation of a boy and a girl falling in love in their early life, to make it a more stable and healthy relationship they have sex. There’s nothing contrary to nature about that. Watch aniamls mate; they don’t wait an entire year or so to have sex. They go right at it!

Granted, there is a huge problem today with AIDS and other STD’s, but there is a such thing as a test for the viruses, if untested sex drops, so will STD infections. And that’s a simple solution for right now until science can find a cure.
 
**RSiscoe [/quote said:
]Unfortunately, we live in a day of almost total apostacy from the faith. That is the hard thing for some people to grasp, but the evidence is there. Mass attendance in the US has dropped from about 80% in 1958 to about 15% today. In Europe it has dropped to single digits. And of those who do still attend Mass, most do not believe (or are completely ignorant of) basic teachings on faith and morality. Churches and Seminaries are closing everywhere because the faith is being diminished all accross the world…Mass attendence here (in the Ozarks of Arkansas) is not dropping. We easily average 80%. And we are serviced by travelling priests – two of whom altenate Sundays with us. One of them is a Nigerian – in a county that is 99% white!

I think many of our problems in the Church overall is due to poor leadership. We have had a lot of bishops who were administrators, compromisers, and so on. If I were a young fellow, I can’t think of many Bishops I could look at and say, “I want to be just like him when I grow up.”
Led Zeppelin75:
That’s because people are getting more skeptical. Instead of just blind trust they now are seeing things the way they are. The Catholic Church has NOT done a good job trying to keep people in their religion. Their doctrines on mortal sins, hell, purgatory, ect are not for the everyday person to graspe. If you’re a Catholic, why not hope the Morman Church is correct, you’ll have a better chance of getting to heaven than in your present religion with mortal sins! http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gifMost Caholics actually believe they will go to hell when they die, and that’s not a very healthy way to live your one and only life.
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I don’t think so – certainly the Catholics I know are looking toward salvation. And a good many of them are thirsty to know more about the Church.

Our little church has a steady trickle of converts – we always have one or two in instruction.
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Led: From your posts I am getting the following impressions…and I hope you find no offence from my observations:
  1. It does not seem to me that you are in a period of doubt, you seem to have made up your mind that Christianity has little or no merit nor basis in reality. (Based on your posts…I hope this is not true in reality).
  2. You seem to assume that intelligent people will see that Christianity can not be adequately defended.
  3. You assume that these atheistic arguments have not been refuted time after time.
  4. You assume that unscholarly and ungrounded claims that Christianity is simply a mix of various pagan religions are true. Why?
Who cares if a New Age guru ‘transubstantiates’? Scripture makes it clear that Satan and his angels have supernatural powers as well. There is no reason to believe that Satan does not mimic and mock the Truth. (And in fact, certain pagan/satanist groups do sometimes ‘celebrate’ Black Masses, in which they mock the Holy Sacrifice by desecrating the Eucharist). You said that there is no evidence that this transformation actually happens in the Catholic Church. What of Eucharistic miracles? What of the species that have been visibly transformed into flesh and blood? (And even analyzed by scientists in at least on instance). What of other miracles, signs, and wonders of the Church in general. Thousands are reported every year…and many of them can not be proved, but what of such cases as Fatima, where 70 000 people witnessed the miracle, including facist officials. Or the appearance of our Lady in Egypt, which was caught on national Egyptian television, and witnessed by Muslims and Christians alike, in the 1960s? The list goes on and on. I promised earlier to address some of the alledged errors of Scripture, and I wish to start that soon. But first, I believe you are gravely in error to assume that ‘intelligent’ educated people do not have faith. This is simply not the case. Thousands of biologists, geologists, astrophysicists, doctors, etc are Catholics and adherents of other faiths. As they learn more about the universe, more and more scientists are realizing that random chance could not have produced it.

I again recommend Lee Strobel’s “The Case for Christ”. The historical case that can be made for Christ can not be rivaled in antiquity.
Before I begin looking at some of these examples of Biblical descrepancies, I have a question for you:
How did existence come into existence? If you subscribe to ‘big-bang’ cosmology, did space-time simply exist for all eternity with an infinite density before the ‘big bang’ occured? How do you explain the origin of existence without God? (I realize that you said that you believe in God…but you seem to be applying that the most intelligent people in history are athiests, which I find to be a groundless claim…you can’t just throw two or three names around and claim that because they are intelligent and athiests, Christianity is unlikely to be true).

God bless you.
In Christ and Mary,
Tyler
 
P.S.
Led, I would agree with Vern…I do not believe it is true to say that most Catholics believe they’ll burn in hell.

The evidence of Scripture, history, and reason show the Catholic Church to be Christ’s Church. I don’t care if the Mormons have a wishy-washy feel good doctrine of almost anyone obtaining salvation. I want the Truth, not what makes me feel good.
 
twf,

No, I have looked at arguements from both sides and come to a conclusion that atheistic arguements are not only backed by intelligance but much more credible that thiest claims.

You say that some church possesses some
human blood and some heart tissue which some scientific test has confirmed to indeed be human blood and tissue. So what? What is the miracle? Yes, I know the story is that this flesh and blood formed from wafers and wine in the 8th century, but why should anyone believe this story? I would be impressed if, under controlled conditions, I could carefully and directly observe wafers and wine turning into flesh and blood, but I simply cannot believe in such a thing, and will never believe in such a thing, based on second-hand stories. As to the scientific tests on the flesh and blood supposedly showing its miraculous properties, who did these tests, where is this information available, and what is its significance?

And all this “Satan” stuff is such garbage, man. Many pagan beliefs would say the exact same thing; “Satan tricks those Christians”, as you would say "Satan tricks those pagans. Make no mistake about it, they do. So why should your claim be any more valid that theirs?

“”""“How did existence come into existence?”"""

Read my posts at “December 2, 2004 05:43 PM”, “December 2, 2004 05:44 PM”, and at December 2, 2004 05:45 PM where I explained in three posts (because it wouldn’t fit into one) exactly how the universe could form on it’s own. Life on this planet started by chance. I don’t know how familiar you are with logics and statictics. But there is about a 1/1,000,000,000,000 chance life will form on any given planet. You may say God would have to do it, but when you consider that there are probably over a trillion planets in the universe that drops that chance down to a 50% chance or higher that life will form on any given planet. We are products of chance, products of the logicistics of the universe.

“God” has been a basic man-made belief since any known time period. The first religion to profess faith in monotheism is Zoroastrianism, they would actually probably have more credibility than other monotheist religions.
 
Led,

Are you ready for your new life as an Atheist? Let me describe it for you. Your mind will be in a constant state of confusion and tormoil as you are seeking the truth, while unknowingly fighting against it. Since you will not have the truth, you will try to rob others of it. You will be able to win a few “converts” over to the same tormented existance as yourself, and that will give you a short lived consolation; but within you will have no peace, only torment and agony. You may try drugs or alchohal to cover over your internal agony, but that will only result in more problems. Eventually you will reach the point of considering suicide to rid yourself of the internal torment, which will be the constant state of your soul. The peace you see faithful Catholics possessing will only confuse and irritate you. “Ignorant fools!” you will consider them. Their peace of soul and faith will cause you to hate them. There mere sight of them will bring a disgust at their total ignorance of the truth which you are seeking. You will either take your life, or spend it in a miserable state of confusion and agonizing torment. You will put on an exterior show of “intelligence” while interiorly you will be in a state of never ending misery. Then when you die you will finally learn the truth - but it will be too late.

That is what you have to look forward to.
 
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RSiscoe:
Led,

Are you ready for your new life as an Atheist? Let me describe it for you. Your mind will be in a constant state of confusion and tormoil as you are seeking the truth, while unknowingly fighting against it. Since you will not have the truth, you will try to rob others of it. You will be able to win a few “converts” over to the same tormented existance as yourself, and that will give you a short lived consolation; but within you will have no peace, only torment and agony. You may try drugs or alchohal to cover over your internal agony, but that will only result in more problems. Eventually you will reach the point of considering suicide to rid yourself of the internal torment, which will be the constant state of your soul. The peace you see faithful Catholics possessing will only confuse and irritate you. “Ignorant fools!” you will consider them. Their peace of soul and faith will cause you to hate them. There mere sight of them will bring a disgust at their total ignorance of the truth which you are seeking. You will either take your life, or spend it in a miserable state of confusion and agonizing torment. You will put on an exterior show of “intelligence” while interiorly you will be in a state of never ending misery. Then when you die you will finally learn the truth - but it will be too late.

That is what you have to look forward to.
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Well, believe what you want to belive about my life. That’s not happening. I will be able to now enjoy every minute of my life with no hell worries, no sin worries, ect… How would my life be agonizing?

How many drafts did you go through to come up with that garbage?
 
Led Zeppelin75:
Well, believe what you want to belive about my life. That’s not happening. I will be able to now enjoy every minute of my life with no hell worries, no sin worries, ect… How would my life be agonizing?

How many drafts did you go through to come up with that garbage?
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Just one draft.

In often takes a while for our actions to produce their consequences. At first the lack of peace will become very noticeable when things are quiet and when you are alone - such as at night while trying to sleep. Eventually it will become noticeable even when things are not quiet. Finally it will become unbearble. In addition to this the torment of the mind will continually increase over time.

Sinful actions give a certain pleasure at first. My brother-in-law is a 34 year old crack addict. He is struggling like you can’t imagine to break the addiction. He goes to meetings for addicts several times a week for support. His life is totally messed up. He can’t hold down a job, because as soon as he gets his first pay check he spends it all on crack and skips work the next day. I’m sure smoking crack was a lot of fun at first, but now he is suffering the consequences.

That is the affect of sin: it is a lot of fun at first - just like smoking crack was for him - it usually makes you feel really good and is very enjoyable to the senses. But then the consequences begin to show and you realize that your old friend (sin) is now your worst enemy - and you can’t get rid of him.

But it takes a bit of time to realize this, since at first everything seemed like fun.

Like I said, consequences often take a while to show themselves. 4 or 5 years from now (at the most) you will see that I was right. I hope that by then it is not too late.
 
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RSiscoe:
Just one draft.

In often takes a while for our actions to produce their consequences. At first the lack of peace will become very noticeable when things are quiet and when you are alone - such as at night while trying to sleep. Eventually it will become noticeable even when things are not quiet. Finally it will become unbearble. In addition to this the torment of the mind will continually increase over time.

Sinful actions give a certain pleasure at first. My brother-in-law is a 34 year old crack addict. He is struggling like you can’t imagine to break the addiction. He goes to meetings for addicts several times a week for support. His life is totally messed up. He can’t hold down a job, because as soon as he gets his first pay check he spends it all on crack and skips work the next day. I’m sure smoking crack was a lot of fun at first, but now he is suffering the consequences.

That is the affect of sin: it is a lot of fun at first - just like smoking crack was for him - it usually makes you feel really good and is very enjoyable to the senses. But then the consequences begin to show and you realize that your old friend (sin) is now your worst enemy - and you can’t get rid of him.

But it takes a bit of time to realize this, since at first everything seemed like fun.

Like I said, consequences often take a while to show themselves. 4 or 5 years from now (at the most) you will see that I was right. I hope that by then it is not too late.
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Considering the fact that I fell asleep for the last 2 years in a state of doubt wheather I was in mortal sin or not I think I’ll do fine without that worry. My life was pretty messed up with that constant worry.
 
Led Zeppelin75:
Considering the fact that I fell asleep for the last 2 years in a state of doubt wheather I was in mortal sin or not I think I’ll do fine without that worry. My life was pretty messed up with that constant worry.
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That could have been a sign of scrupples. Actually the saints tell us that being a little scrupulous is a good sign for a soul that has recently gone through a conversion (within the first 5 years or so). I used to have some scrupples. It can be a sign of a delicate conscience that has yet to be properly formed; and delicate conscience is a good thing to have.

However, a delicate conscience, near the beginning of a conversion, can result in bad scrupples, which (if not checked) can lead to some real problems, such as you explained. The conscience can become so sensetive that it suspects sin where there is none. Just as we can have nervous disorders, so too can we have disorders with our conscience. That is what happened to Martin Luther, which led to him falling into heresy.

I don’t know all of the circumstances, but if you had recently gone through a conversion, you may have been suffering from scruples. In that case, the thing to do is find a good spiritual director that can help you. But it needs to be a good spiritual director. There are also some good books on the subject. I think Roman Catholic Books has a good older book on the subject that they have brought back into print.

If not corrected, scrupples can indeed cause serious problems. Since the person sees sin everywhere - even where it does not exist - they become confused. Since their intellect knows they have not sinned, but their conscience tells them they “might have” they become confused. It is always after the fact that they consider whether or not they have sinned. It is usually not “I shouldn’t do this, but I am anyway”; but rather, “I thought it was OK at the time, but now I’m not so sure”.

People with a bad case of scrupples sometimes look for ways to explain the contradiction between their intellect and their conscience. One way is to conclude that sin is the problem, when the problem was actually in their conscience, which wrongly detected sin where no sin existed. Then, to rid themselves from the mental anguish, they will seek answers that alleviate their conscience. I think maybe that has led you to where you are today.

Don’t allow scrupples to ruin you. Turning from God will not solve your problems; especially if you are someone who is proned to scrupples. Instead, find a good spiritual director and buy the book “My daily Bread”. Before you give up, give that a try. I think that is what you need.

I’ll be praying for you.

God Bless.
 
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RSiscoe:
That could have been a sign of scrupples. Actually the saints tell us that being a little scrupulous is a good sign for a soul that has recently gone through a conversion (within the first 5 years or so). I used to have some scrupples. It can be a sign of a delicate conscience that has yet to be properly formed; and delicate conscience is a good thing to have.

However, a delicate conscience, near the beginning of a conversion, can result in bad scrupples, which (if not checked) can lead to some real problems, such as you explained. The conscience can become so sensetive that it suspects sin where there is none. Just as we can have nervous disorders, so too can we have disorders with our conscience. That is what happened to Martin Luther, which led to him falling into heresy.

I don’t know all of the circumstances, but if you had recently gone through a conversion, you may have been suffering from scruples. In that case, the thing to do is find a good spiritual director that can help you. But it needs to be a good spiritual director. There are also some good books on the subject. I think Roman Catholic Books has a good older book on the subject that they have brought back into print.

If not corrected, scrupples can indeed cause serious problems. Since the person sees sin everywhere - even where it does not exist - they become confused. Since their intellect knows they have not sinned, but their conscience tells them they “might have” they become confused. It is always after the fact that they consider whether or not they have sinned. It is usually not “I shouldn’t do this, but I am anyway”; but rather, “I thought it was OK at the time, but now I’m not so sure”.

People with a bad case of scrupples sometimes look for ways to explain the contradiction between their intellect and their conscience. One way is to conclude that sin is the problem, when the problem was actually in their conscience, which wrongly detected sin where no sin existed. Then, to rid themselves from the mental anguish, they will seek answers that alleviate their conscience. I think maybe that has led you to where you are today.

Don’t allow scrupples to ruin you. Turning from God will not solve your problems; especially if you are someone who is proned to scrupples. Instead, find a good spiritual director and buy the book “My daily Bread”. Before you give up, give that a try. I think that is what you need.

I’ll be praying for you.

God Bless.
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Thanks for the advice, but I doubt I’ll need it. Each person has their own conscience based on moral values learned in youth. You see people in the middle East or snotty rich people that have no conscience. Do you know how that’s caused? It’s caused by too mush disipline and not enough values learned. A person’s conscience is basically a direct reflection of their parents values. Conscience does not come from any supernatural source.

Constant prayer and a “spiritual director” is not going to do benefits. The teachings of the Church will stay the same (unless they revise the present council) and it won’t help.

I’ve given my reasons for being skeptical of religion, and I’ve found no really good arguements against it. I’m not makeing a desision based on these “scrupples”, but on skepticism. If you accept that religion is bogus, why bother to practice the religion?
 
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