Does the Big Bang Suggest a Creator God?

[atheistgirl]

That is the atheist creed isn’t it? The yearning for everlasting death.

Creed

Not mine.

I just want to die and nourish my favorite tree

That’s what I know is going to happen.

If it turns out I’m wrong and there is life ever after, I’m going to be really really annoyed

Sarah x

 

[Ion]

I can’t think of anything worse.

Well, I can.

Living forever and ever and ever will no possibility of an end in sight

Sarah x

I can recall a post where you imply eternity of the soul. Living forever with no possibility of an end in sight sounds like Hell,otherwise you wouldn’t wish that end. Indeed the place where the atheists end up is Hell.
You can start RCIA…

 

[atheistgirl]

I can recall a post where you imply eternity of the soul.

No I implied I will live on in my children, and on a molecular level when my decomposed body is recycled back to the earth.

When this planet finally implodes, which it will, I’ll be part of the stardust scattered out into the universe, and in a few billion years, some of me might evolve from a single cell to a frog to a princess on that far away planet

I won’t know or care though.

Indeed the place where the atheists end up is Hell.

Wow.

I’m impressed.

You know God’s judgment for us all.

You can start RCIA…

Or, I could just hit the ignore button

Experience here has taught me when someones first interaction with me is to tell me I’m going to hell, there’s generally no further constructive, polite, charitable or interesting conversation to be had with them.

Bye.

Sarah x

 

[Ion]

No I implied I will live on in my children, and on a molecular level when my decomposed body is recycled back to the earth.

You do not live in your children, but only the proof of your soul is there.

When this planet finally implodes, which it will, I’ll be part of the stardust scattered out into the universe, and in a few billion years, some of me might evolve from a single cell to a frog to a princess on that far away planet

We know the future from prophecies.

You know God’s judgment for us all.

He told us how are we going to be judged.

Or, I could just hit the ignore button

No ignore button, its Heaven or Hell.

 

[Ion]

Experience here has taught me when someones first interaction with me is to tell me I’m going to hell…

Sarah x

I didn’t say that you, in particular, go to Hell, but atheists.
Usually atheists say they don’t go there because they think they are not going anywhere after they die.

 

[Al_Moritz]

Wow.

I’m impressed.

You know God’s judgment for us all.

Indeed, I’m impressed too. Perhaps Ion has some special insights…

While I am concerned about your salvation, and I pray for you, I would not dare to claim to know God’s judgements.

Experience here has taught me when someones first interaction with me is to tell me I’m going to hell, there’s generally no further constructive, polite, charitable or interesting conversation to be had with them.

Bye.

I am afraid you’re right.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

atheistgirl
**
If it turns out I’m wrong and there is life ever after, I’m going to be really really annoyed.**

Ah, you just gave yourself away with that “if.” You are willing to admit that you might be wrong, and yet you are willing to put yourself in the position of being everlastingly wrong, when you could have been everlastingly right. In the one case, you will never know. In the other case you will know, and everlastingly wish you didn’t.

Experience here has taught me when someones first interaction with me is to tell me I’m going to hell, there’s generally no further constructive, polite, charitable or interesting conversation to be had with them.

Would you say that if someone sincerely warned you about a dangerous curve you were racing toward, you would decide there is no “further constructive, polite, charitable or interesting conversation to be had with them”? You take another person’s concern for your immortal soul as an insult?

 

[atheistgirl]

Ah, you just gave yourself away with that “if.”

Well, I don’t think I’ve ever made an emphatic statement here concerning the afterlife

I have however been consistent in saying I see no evidence for one, but I don’t think I’ve ever said there isn’t one.

Of course, I could be completely wrong.

In the same way I could be completely wrong about the pink elephant orbiting a far off planet on the edge of the universe, that we’ll never see and never get to.

I don’t think so though.

You are willing to admit that you might be wrong,

Of course.

I always have been.

and yet you are willing to put yourself in the position of being everlastingly wrong

Yes, based on the evidence, or rather, lack of evidence.

In the one case, you will never know.

In which case, I have nothing to be troubled about.

In the other case you will know, and everlastingly wish you didn’t.

Why would I everlastingly wish I wasn’t in heaven?



Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

You take another person’s concern for your immortal soul as an insult?

Not in the least.

I have many times on this forum, and if fact, just a little time ago on a post on another thread, thanked people for their prayers and concern.

However, someone, on their very first interaction with me, declaring that I, as an atheist, will end up in hell, is usurping a power and authority of judgment they don’t have, and are not entitled to.

They should, as a Christian, known this, but either don’t or don’t care to know and coupled with two years of experience here and knowing where engaging with this type of mindset typically ends up, I have no problem breaking off communications at this early stage

Sarah x

 

[Charlemagne_II]

atheistgirl

However, someone, on their very first interaction with me, declaring that I, as an atheist, will end up in hell, is usurping a power and authority of judgment they don’t have, and are not entitled to.

You took his words as a gross personal insult. I took them as a charitable warning.

You should know that no one can send you to hell but God, and that only by your own choice, not by the choice of any Catholic in this forum.

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

It is clear that it is your choice to deny God. So you have everyone’s prayers that you will choose life rather than death.

 

[atheistgirl]

You took his words as a gross personal insult. I took them as a charitable warning.

I wasn’t ‘‘grossly personally insulted’’ by his words at all.

In exactly the same way as I’m not ‘‘grossly personally insulted’’ by the guys who whistle, jeer and shout rude sexist stuff from their construction site.

I’m not remotely insulted by them.

But equally, based on their initial reaction and conduct toward me, I have absolutely no desire to have a conversation with them, or any interest in listening to anything they have to say.

You should know that no one can send you to hell but God, and that only by your own choice, not by the choice of any Catholic in this forum.

I do.

And I have no desire to listen to condemnation from Catholics who apparently don’t.

It is clear that it is your choice to deny God.

I deny there is sufficient evidence, for me, to believe in a Deity.

So you have everyone’s prayers that you will choose life rather than death.

Thank you.

Sincerely.

Sarah x

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I deny there is sufficient evidence, for me, to believe in a Deity.

“Is at this time” or “Can ever be,” Sarah?

Regardless, I still have irrepressible hopes for your conversion, my friend.

 

[atheistgirl]

“Is at this time” or “Can ever be,” Sarah?

Hi Mike

Is means at this moment in time.

I’m a very open minded and curious individual.

I go where the evidence takes me

Of course, were there to be sufficient evidence to effectively constitute a proof for the existence of a Deity, there’s still a world of work to get from there, to the Personal God of Christianity.

But it would be a foundation to work from I guess.

However, at this moment in time, I do not see any evidence that suggests to me there is a supernatural Deity. Nor am I persuaded by any of the so called logical reasonings since it’s all to easy to pick holes in them

Regardless, I still have irrepressible hopes for your conversion, my friend.

Hope is a very attractive quality in a person

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

The Big Bang is powerful evidence that we have powerful minds which require a powerful explanation by the most powerful Mind!

 

[Charlemagne_II]

I am reminded of a remark by Pope Pius XII

“True science to an ever-increasing degree discovers God as though God were waiting behind each closed door opened by science.”

The Big Bang theory strongly suggests a creation event.

Even the scientific study of abiognesis suggests the idea of intelligent design. How could the first inkling of life appear all at once with all the powers of self preservation, reproduction, and a built-in capacity billions of years hence to evolve itself into ourselves … without being intelligently designed for its grand destiny?

 

[dshix]

I am reminded of a remark by Pope Pius XII

“True science to an ever-increasing degree discovers God as though God were waiting behind each closed door opened by science.”

The Big Bang theory strongly suggests a creation event.

Even the scientific study of abiognesis suggests the idea of intelligent design. How could the first inkling of life appear all at once with all the powers of self preservation, reproduction, and a built-in capacity billions of years hence to evolve itself into ourselves … without being intelligently designed for its grand destiny?

Exactly. The Big Bang theory especially suggests God because it states the the universe had a beginning, and since everything that has a beginning must have been caused by something, this theory leads on to God.

 

[Fomalhaut]

I think I’ll just remind it one last time, and stop after that, since I feel like a parrot.

The Big Bang theory does NOT state the universe had a beginning.

The name is confusing and scientific outreach on the subject doesn’t help. No the Big Bang was not a huge explosion that came out of nothing and allowed matter to flow everywhere. The Big Bang was a dense and hot state of the universe, long ago. We don’t know what happened to it before.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I’d really like to keep the debate on the Big Bang itself,

That’s fine. Personally, if it can be proven, most of us would have to accept it on faith, we wouldn’t understand the details of the proof. So again, we are back to faith, which " some " in the scientific community so abhor.

Some people choose to exclude God from their views of the world. Why ? Not because they are in denial, or manipulated by the devil, just because they want to know what’s beyond the frontier of our current knowledge. They don’t want a magical answer, they want to know how the world works. Yes sometimes they speculate without evidence, and sometimes they will claim their hypothesis is the 100% truth.

There is no conflict between Christian Faith ( Divine Revelation ) and science, that is genuine science as opposed to day dreams and hypotheticals. Your discription of Christianity as " magical " is a pejorative unworthy of a scientist.

About the philosophical reasoning, scientist reject it as a source of knowledge because humans are fallible.

And always will be - even for scientists. My goodness, look how often they have been wrong. Yet they still place absolute trust in the method. So why the prejudice against philosophy? Philosophy is not about " internal " reasoning. It seeks to understand the causes of existing things as existing, ( i.e. being qua being ). I’m talking about the philosophy of the 13th century Scholastics, not the jumble that has existed since Hume, who never bothered to read the Scholastics and missunderstood the meaning of causality.

Finally, you can’t seriously use the expression “solid ground of Divine Revelation” when we talk about non-believers. I could say the Koran is solid ground of Divine Revelation too, and ask how you can dismiss it.

Of course I’m serious. The only way you can dismiss Christianity is to dismiss history. Divine Revelation is a historical fact that can be demonstrated to any unbiased observer - a fact attested to by history. The trouble is that people today get all tied up with " institutionalized " anti-Christian biggotry. They don’t really do any research themselves, they just exchange eachothers’ biases, and being careful never to do or say anything " out of group think. "

About the inaccessible math, it is true that it is now well beyond the grasp of the average Joe, but that shouldn’t be an argument. I could make simplistic critics on the christian faith, blatant logical fallacies on the nature of God and conclude that Religion is not coherent. You wouldn’t agree. I had a few questions recently about free will. I asked them at a few christian people.

Yes, I would probably disagree.

Most of them couldn’t answer themselves and told me to read st Thomas Aquinas for answers. That is what I am doing at the moment but I can tell you, st Thomas Aquinas is well beyond the grasp of the average Joe too.

Yes, I believe that. But there is one thing I have found out here is that " your folks" cannot follow a logical argument. They claim otherwise but is a mere defense mechanism. They can’t respons intelligently, so either they throw out a handful of red herrings, or they just say " …that is not a logical conclusion…" or " …that is just a tautology…" The truth is they can’t answer and their own position is held as an " act of faith. " Ironic is it not?

Overall, I really don’t want to enter a debate about whether or not christians are persecuted.

Why not, you enjoyed " The Last of the Mohichans " didn’t you? Well the " Brave New World " is doing its level best to " do in " Christianity. Just let Christianity do or say anyting these days and there is a primal scream throught the media and academia.

I would just like to point out that for example, trying to teach creationnism in science classes is not part of the freedom of speech and not being allowed to is not persecution. Creationnism is not a scientific theory, unless you can provide an experiment that would be able to refute it.

It is certainly an example. If creationism can’t be taught, then neither should its contrary. The educational system should leave the question open. But that is by no means the only example as you well know.

When i read genesis, I was quite surprised to see the plants being created before the Sun. As an astrophysicist I’m also quite skeptical about the Earth being created before the Sun.

Moses wasn’t teaching science. But the theological explanation of genesis is detailed.

But I am glad you are reading Thomas Aquinas. If you are reading his works I would start with the Summa Theologiae. You would also find his Questiones Disputatae de Potentiae and Questiones Disputatae de Anima and Essence and Existence interesting. All of these are available for online reading.

Also a general treatment of St. Thomas from the Catholic Encyclopedia :

newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm :thumbsup

P.S. I think Astrophysics is great, from the visual point of view. I know nothing about the science but I have great respect for those of you who can understand it. To me, that part of it is accepted as an act of faith. See where most of us " average " folks are ! We have no choice but to live by faith. Like I said, for 99.99 % of us that is just about all we can count on except our own common sense.

And yes, St. Thomas is much beyond the average " Joe. "

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Formalhaut

**The name is confusing and scientific outreach on the subject doesn’t help. No the Big Bang was not a huge explosion that came out of nothing and allowed matter to flow everywhere. The Big Bang was a dense and hot state of the universe, long ago. We don’t know what happened to it before. **

You are begging the question.

Time began 14 billion years ago. There is no “before” that. There is nothing in the theory to suggest that the universe had no start. This is only the fondest wish of atheists everywhere that it is so.

The universe is getting bigger every day as galaxies fly farther apart in every direction. So let’s not kid ourselves that the universe at the start was just a hot dense state that always existed and didn’t need to expand into its present size because there was no one behind the universe to start the fireworks.

 

[Fomalhaut]

I’m not going to reply to these posts. My answers are in my previous messages in the thread. Feel free to read them. Linusthe2nd, I tried, and visibly failed, to make you understand how science works. There’s not much I can do for you now. Feel free to strut around about your victory.