does the Catholic Church make it too hard to get into heaven?

[Bookcat]

As one of the Church Fathers put it -the Faith is like a body of water…shallow enough that a small child can play and deep that an elephant can swim…and I would add dive.

 

[Bookcat]

Tis not “about rules” though of course rules (even in games and on the road) are important…

“Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI Deus Caritas Est

““To gaze upon Christ!” If we do this, we realize that Christianity is more than and different from a moral code, from a series of requirements and laws. It is the gift of a friendship that lasts through life and death: “No longer do I call you servants, but friends” (Jn 15:15), the Lord says to his disciples. We entrust ourselves to this friendship. Yet precisely because Christianity is more than a moral system, because it is the gift of friendship, for this reason it also contains within itself great moral strength, which is so urgently needed today on account of the challenges of our time. If with Jesus Christ and his Church we constantly re-read the Ten Commandments of Sinai, entering into their full depth, then a great, valid and lasting teaching unfolds before us. The Ten Commandments are first and foremost a “yes” to God, to a God who loves us and leads us, who carries us and yet allows us our freedom: indeed, it is he who makes our freedom real (the first three commandments). It is a “yes” to the family (fourth commandment), a “yes” to life (fifth commandment), a “yes” to responsible love (sixth commandment), a “yes” to solidarity, to social responsibility and to justice (seventh commandment), a “yes” to truth (eighth commandment) and a “yes” to respect for other people and for what is theirs (ninth and tenth commandments). By the strength of our friendship with the living God we live this manifold “yes” and at the same time we carry it as a signpost into this world of ours today.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI 8 September 2007

““I want them to understand that it is beautiful to be a Christian! The generally prevailing idea is that Christians have to observe an immense number of commandments, prohibitions, precepts, and other such restrictions, so that Christianity is a heavy and oppressive way of living, and it would therefore be more liberating to live without all these burdens. But I would like to make it clear that to be sustained by this great Love and God’s sublime revelation is not a burden, but rather a set of wings—that it is truly beautiful to be a Christian. It is an experience that gives us room to breathe and move, but most of all, it places us within a community since, as Christians, we are never alone: first of all, there is God, who is always with us; secondly, we are always forming a great community among ourselves: a community of people together on a journey, a community with a project for the future. All of this means that we are empowered to live a life worth living. This is the joy of being a Christian: that it is beautiful and right to believe!””

~Pope Benedict XVI 2005

(quotes snipped from Vatican website:www.vatican.va)

 

[on_the_hill]

If the church can write the rules that will be bound in heaven;

The rest of the question comes to a full stop at this point.

The Church doesn’t write the rules that will be bound in heaven. What does that mean, anyway?

 

[DavidFilmer]

So the fact that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven” tells me you must be 100% clean then!

That’s what purgatory is for. You might not be 100% clean when you die, but as long as you are in a state of Grace then you will be 100% clean when you enter heaven.

Also where in the bible does it say that all we need to is worship Jesus to get to heaven?

It doesn’t. And we don’t.

It helps, though.

 

[DavidFilmer]

The Church doesn’t write the rules that will be bound in heaven.

Um, yes it does. Jesus gave the Church this authority:

And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” [Matt 16:17-19]

“Binding” and “loosing” are rabbinical terms which means to impose or lift an obligation.

The Church has five such rules, called the precepts of the Church.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I don’t think that the CCC states that if you don’t go to Mass, or any of the others, that you will explicitly end up in Hell.

Yes it does.

CCC 846: “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

Take myself. I was baptized and confirmed in a Catholic church. I know the Catholic Church teaches this. Yet I haven’t remained in the faith. I haven’t been to a Mass in 16 mos. And I haven’t practiced or followed other things that make up the Catholic faith for a very long time. So I’m going to hell. Or so the Catholic Church says. Unless of course it says I confess these things before I die. And I haven’t confessed to a priest in decades.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Yes it does.

CCC 846: “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

Take myself. I was baptized and confirmed in a Catholic church. I know the Catholic Church teaches this. Yet I haven’t remained in the faith. I haven’t been to a Mass in 16 mos. And I haven’t practiced or followed other things that make up the Catholic faith for a very long time. So I’m going to hell. Or so the Catholic Church says. Unless of course it says I confess these things before I die. And I haven’t confessed to a priest in decades.

The degree of culpability would come down to the article “knowing.” We can’t say whether you know or not, only God can. However, I would remind you that this is not a mere precept enforced by the Church. The Church didn’t make this rule, God did; the Church only relates it to us. Even if the Church didn’t outline that rule as it has, it wouldn’t change the underlying reality that the rule expresses.

 

[DavidFilmer]

However, I would remind you that this is not a mere precept enforced by the Church. The Church didn’t make this rule, God did; the Church only relates it to us.

Uh, not really. The precepts are manmade rules, not doctrines. They can change (and they have changed, though not in a really long time). They could be abolished.

When Jesus told Peter, “whatever you require on earth will be required in heaven,” he wasn’t merely appointing Peter as a messenger. He empowered Peter (and his successors) with real authority of their own accord. The ability to “loose” is demonstrated when the Church offers dispensations from time to time (which She could not do if the precepts were doctrines - the Church can’t give you a dispensation to sin).

The Church exercises this authority with great restraint. The five precepts are common sense requirements that do not place unreasonable burdens on the Faithful. Two of them apply only once a year (as a minimum). The one that touches us most often is the requirement to attend Mass each Sunday. There are 168 hours in a week, and the Church asks us to spend just one of those hours at Mass. That’s half of one percent of our time - hardly unreasonable. Most faithful Catholics would fulfill (and exceed) the precepts even if they weren’t imposed. Does anyone (of any faith) really believe that God doesn’t care whether we worship him or watch football?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Uh, not really. The precepts are manmade rules, not doctrines. They can change (and they have changed, though not in a really long time). They could be abolished.

When Jesus told Peter, “whatever you require on earth will be required in heaven,” he wasn’t merely appointing Peter as a messenger. He empowered Peter (and his successors) with real authority of their own accord. The ability to “loose” is demonstrated when the Church offers dispensations from time to time (which She could not do if the precepts were doctrines - the Church can’t give you a dispensation to sin).

The Church exercises this authority with great restraint. The five precepts are common sense requirements that do not place unreasonable burdens on the Faithful. Two of them apply only once a year (as a minimum). The one that touches us most often is the requirement to attend Mass each Sunday. There are 168 hours in a week, and the Church asks us to spend just one of those hours at Mass. That’s half of one percent of our time - hardly unreasonable. Most faithful Catholics would fulfill (and exceed) the precepts even if they weren’t imposed. Does anyone (of any faith) really believe that God doesn’t care whether we worship him or watch football?

I was referencing this article of the catechism specifically:

CCC 846: “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

I didn’t intend it as a rebuke against the precept of required mass attendance. I was trying to say that when a person knowingly refuses to enter or remain in Christ’s Church, they risk the loss of their salvation; and that this fact is not a simple precept of the Church. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Sy_Noe]

The degree of culpability would come down to the article “knowing.” We can’t say whether you know or not, only God can. However, I would remind you that this is not a mere precept enforced by the Church. The Church didn’t make this rule, God did; the Church only relates it to us. Even if the Church didn’t outline that rule as it has, it wouldn’t change the underlying reality that the rule expresses.

Yes God knows I know what the Catholic Church teaches and He also knows I don’t have faith in Catholic teachings. He knows my heart though. That’s why I don’t worry all that much about not remaining or what CCC says about who can not be saved. Or what an internet site says about me. I leave it solely and only in the His hands.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Yes God knows I know what the Catholic Church teaches and He also knows I don’t have faith in Catholic teachings. He knows my heart though. That’s why I don’t worry all that much about not remaining or what CCC says about who can not be saved. I leave it solely and only in the His hands.

The question would probably come down to -why- you don’t accept what the church teaches. It is just because you don’t like it, or is there a deeper reason? Further, if there is a deeper reason, what have you done to understand Church teaching on the matter? Many people use the fact that they have questions as reason enough to reject the Church, rather than actually seeking answers for their questions. I would argue that that is living in willful ignorance of God’s will, which is not a good position to be in.

I’m curious, why do you reject the authority of the Church?

 

[DavidFilmer]

I don’t think that the CCC states that if you don’t go to Mass, or any of the others, that you will explicitly end up in Hell.

Of course, the Church says no such thing. There is no such thing as an act that you could do (or not do) and automatically go to hell. Only unconfessed mortal sin can consign us to hell, and mortal sin has three parts: grave matter (the act itself), full knowledge, and complete intent. The act is only 1/3 of the equation.

But it does not state that a dis-belief in the assumption of Mary will send you to Hell.

True. Catholics are expected to believe all that the Church teaches, but disbelief is not sinful, provided certain conditions are met:

• You must recognize your disbelief is a personal flaw that needs to be corrected
• You must make a sincere, ongoing, good-faith effort to resolve your disbelief
• You may not teach your disbelief to others as truth

If you want to believe but are having difficulty, it is not sinful because there is no sinful intent (quite the opposite). It’s not OK to disbelieve, but unwilling disbelief is not sinful and does not endanger our salvation, even if we are unable to reconcile our disbelief before we die.

 

[Sy_Noe]

The question would probably come down to -why- you don’t accept what the church teaches. It is just because you don’t like it, or is there a deeper reason? Further, if there is a deeper reason, what have you done to understand Church teaching on the matter? Many people use the fact that they have questions as reason enough to reject the Church, rather than actually seeking answers for their questions. I would argue that that is living in willful ignorance of God’s will, which is not a good position to be in.

I’m curious, why do you reject the authority of the Church?

Simply because I lack the faith. Which is something I find people on CAF don’t seem to understand. A person can know what the Catholic Church teaches and know why. But one still must have faith. That’s really what it comes down to. I have faith and beliefs though. It’s just that my faith and beliefs are not in the faith that was given me at 6 wks old or in the one a 10 yr old supposedly could confirm.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Of course, the Church says no such thing. There is no such thing as an act that you could do (or not do) and automatically go to hell. Only unconfessed mortal sin can consign us to hell, and mortal sin has three parts: grave matter (the act itself), full knowledge, and complete intent. The act is only 1/3 of the equation.

True. Catholics are expected to believe all that the Church teaches, but disbelief is not sinful, provided certain conditions are met:

• You must recognize your disbelief is a personal flaw that needs to be corrected
• You must make a sincere, ongoing, good-faith effort to resolve your disbelief
• You may not teach your disbelief to others as truth

If you want to believe but are having difficulty, it is not sinful because there is no sinful intent (quite the opposite). It’s not OK to disbelieve, but unwilling disbelief is not sinful and does not endanger our salvation, even if we are unable to reconcile our disbelief before we die.

I struggled with the Catholic faith for most of my entire life. And finally said enough of this. It is not a personal flaw. It’s ok. I’m who God created me to be. God doesn’t want me tortured like this. I disbelieve. I left the faith. So there you have it. Catholics teach I’m going to hell. They teach a loved one of mind who attended Mass and received the Eucharist and was active in their parish but who was married by a Protestant pastor, knew too what the Catholic Church teaches but did not believe in or practice it all. Did not go to confession. Died without receiving the Sacrament of Anointing, is in hell too if they didn’t make a good enough act of contrition before taking their last breath. Fortunately I don’t believe either case to be certain even in my human state. Or else I’d lose my mind.

 

[DavidFilmer]

But one still must have faith.

No, you don’t need faith. Or works or beliefs or any such thing. You need Grace.

If you received valid Christian Baptism (and I believe you did) then you were placed into a state of Grace. If you received it as an adult then you were expected to have had faith when you receive Baptism (and what adult would desire Baptism without faith?), but you are not required to maintain faith as a condition of remaining in a State of Grace.

You don’t need to do anything to remain in a state of Grace. You need to NOT do something, namely commit mortal sin. As I said earlier, the Church does not teach whether it is “easy” or “hard” for a person of good will to commit mortal sin. Since you are not availing yourself of Sacramental Confession then I hope, for your sake, that it is “hard.”

 

[Sy_Noe]

No, you don’t need faith. Or works or beliefs or any such thing. You need Grace.

If you received valid Christian Baptism (and I believe you did) then you were placed into a state of Grace. If you received it as an adult then you were expected to have had faith when you receive Baptism (and what adult would desire Baptism without faith?), but you are not required to maintain faith as a condition of remaining in a State of Grace.

You don’t need to do anything to remain in a state of Grace. You need to NOT do something, namely commit mortal sin. As I said earlier, the Church does not teach whether it is “easy” or “hard” for a person of good will to commit mortal sin. Since you are not availing yourself of Sacramental Confession then I hope, for your sake, that it is “hard.”

Yes you’re right. I did. I have a Baptismal certificate issued shortly after birth and an updated copy with my Confirmation just 10 yrs later duly noted. So iow I lost my grace because I didn’t follow what I don’t have faith or belief in. That’s not hard to do. So iow faithful Catholics and the Catholic Church say I’m certain to go to hell in my current state. I could have missed one Mass and if I never repented it I’m in a state of mortal of sin and certain of going to hell. I get it. I don’t believe it. But I get it. And I’m not at all meaning to be disrespectful. On the contrary I respect this is your faith. It’s just not mine and I sometimes get irritated when I’m told I’m going to hell if I don’t keep trying to believe and don’t repent things I don’t even believe. Anyways. I just wanted to point to where the CCC speaks about people like me going to hell. Peace.

 

[steve_b]

If the church can write the rules that will be bound in heaven; why are there so many ways to fall short and end up in hell? It is supposed to be so easy a child can understand. I’d like to meet the child that can understand the entire catechism.

The one who will do ALL the judging (Jesus), told us in advance how it will be in the end.

• Mt 7: 13 “Enter by the narrow gate; … 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.*
  

  Where then do the rest go? Not purgatory. Because those in purgatory ultimately go to heaven. Therefore, the rest go to Hell.

The question you have to ask yourself is, WHY so few go to heaven and why do the rest go to hell?

The faith is easy to understand. It’s obedience to faith that’s tough.
u:

To clarify* it seems* the early church just needed Jesus and to follow his rules. Now you have to believe in the saints, Mary, Trinity, abstain, go to mass, etc. etc. etc.

To pick just one item you mentioned

Do you know why missing mass deliberately on Sunday is so grave to one’s soul?** #**22
u:

If the church dropped all of the trappings and went back to a basic worship in Jesus it would be easier for many to enter heaven.

just my nickles worth

What Protestant group are you getting all your responses from?

 

[Sy_Noe]

The one who will do ALL the judging (Jesus), told us in advance how it will be in the end.

• Mt 7: 13 “Enter by the narrow gate; … 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.*
  

  Where then do the rest go? Not purgatory. Because those in purgatory ultimately go to heaven. Therefore, the rest go to Hell.

The question you have to ask yourself is, WHY so few go to heaven and why do the rest go to hell?

The faith is easy to understand. It’s obedience to faith that’s tough.

To pick just one item you mentioned

Do you know why missing mass deliberately on Sunday is so grave to one’s soul?** #**22

What Protestant group are you getting all your responses from?

There are how many Catholics in the US? In the world? And how many of those practice? And counting the non Catholics who Jesus will undoubtedly include due to not knowing any better, exactly how is it that you know what Jesus meant by a few?

I know your question was not addressed to me but how’s this for a short version? Missing Mass is believed to be grave by those of Catholic faith due to the Catholic Church believing it is the one true Church and Catholics are to be obedient to the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. And it is thus an obligation and it is believed the Mass is where Christ is and Catholics join with Him in worship to honor and love God and to keep holy His day.

 

[upant]

What Protestant group are you getting all your responses from?

none of them. i have issues with the bible that they claim is inerrant and take literally.

I have read the New Testament and some of the Old but i find too many verses (like ask and you shall receive; where two are gathered; two luminaries; the moon will turn off its light; the smallest seed; etc.) that don’t hold water to follow it blindly. i have seen footnotes in catholic bibles which state such and such verse wasn’t in earlier bibles. we don’t even know if what we have are the real teachings of Christ.

as important is the confusion among the members of the church; just look at the confusion on this thread. even off the net some say you need to believe all the church teaches and others say you don’t. i have talked to priest who seemed to shy to say other then its okay. which brings me to the original question …why all the rules. I guess the narrow gate is paved with these rules and they are the reason few enter in.

but i do believe in the call of the Holy Spirit and that is why I seek answers.

 

[Millie123]

To clarify it seems the early church just needed Jesus and to follow his rules. Now you have to believe in the saints, Mary, Trinity, abstain, go to mass, etc. etc. etc.

I don’t think that this is an accurate portrayal of the early church. Have you ever read the Didache? It was written sometime in the first century. Many people think of it as a catechism, or a treatise for the early Christians. I like it because it illustrates a big picture of how the early church worshipped…Whenever I read it, I find it to be very Catholic.
thedidache.com/

1. They believed in Saints…The Didache speaks of the Saints as also returning with Christ at his return.
   "And thou shalt seek daily the presence of the saints, that thou mayest find rest in their words. "
   "And “then shall appear the signs” of the truth. First the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead. But not of all the dead, but as it was said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him.
   Then shall the world “see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven.”
2. The early Christians believed in the Trinity: The Didache teaches to Baptize Christians in the name of the Holy Trinity…
   "Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, “baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost,” in running water;
   But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
   But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head “in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.”
3. The Early Christians did so believe in abstaining, in fact they had more stricter abstinence rules than the church has today:
   From the Didache:
   “Let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on Mondays and Thursdays, but do you fast on Wednesdays and Fridays.”
4. Concerning Sunday Mass and the Holy Eucharist: The early church believed in this too.

"And concerning the Eucharist, hold Eucharist thus: First concerning the Cup, “We give thanks to thee, our Father, for the Holy Vine of David thy child, which, thou didst make known to us through Jesus thy Child; to thee be glory for ever.”
And concerning the broken Bread: "We give thee thanks, our Father, for the life and knowledge which thou didst make known to us through Jesus thy Child. To thee be glory for ever.
As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains, but was brought together and became one, so let thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into thy kingdom, for thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever.
But let none eat or drink of your Eucharist except those who have been baptised in the Lord’s Name. For concerning this also did the Lord say, “Give not that which is holy to the dogs.”

“On the Lord’s Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure;”

1. etc, etc, etc…there is much more in the Didache that shows the early as being Catholic.
   A) They had the sacrament of confession:
   “In the congregation thou shalt confess thy transgressions, and thou shalt not betake thyself to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life.”
   “On the Lord’s Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure;”

B) They had a structured church, in fact the Didache gives instructions on the selection of Bishops and Deacons.
“Appoint therefore for yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, meek men, and not lovers of money, and truthful and approved, for they also minister to you the ministry of the prophets and teachers.”