does the Catholic Church make it too hard to get into heaven?

[Sy_Noe]

I don’t think that this is an accurate portrayal of the early church. Have you ever read the Didache? It was written sometime in the first century. Many people think of it as a catechism, or a treatise for the early Christians. I like it because it illustrates a big picture of how the early church worshipped…Whenever I read it, I find it to be very Catholic.
thedidache.com/

1. They believed in Saints…The Didache speaks of the Saints as also returning with Christ at his return.
   "And thou shalt seek daily the presence of the saints, that thou mayest find rest in their words. "
   "And “then shall appear the signs” of the truth. First the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead. But not of all the dead, but as it was said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him.
   Then shall the world “see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven.”
2. The early Christians believed in the Trinity: The Didache teaches to Baptize Christians in the name of the Holy Trinity…
   "Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, “baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost,” in running water;
   But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
   But if thou hast neither, pour water three times on the head “in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.”
3. The Early Christians did so believe in abstaining, in fact they had more stricter abstinence rules than the church has today:
   From the Didache:
   “Let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on Mondays and Thursdays, but do you fast on Wednesdays and Fridays.”
4. Concerning Sunday Mass and the Holy Eucharist: The early church believed in this too.

"And concerning the Eucharist, hold Eucharist thus: First concerning the Cup, “We give thanks to thee, our Father, for the Holy Vine of David thy child, which, thou didst make known to us through Jesus thy Child; to thee be glory for ever.”
And concerning the broken Bread: "We give thee thanks, our Father, for the life and knowledge which thou didst make known to us through Jesus thy Child. To thee be glory for ever.
As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains, but was brought together and became one, so let thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into thy kingdom, for thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever.
But let none eat or drink of your Eucharist except those who have been baptised in the Lord’s Name. For concerning this also did the Lord say, “Give not that which is holy to the dogs.”

“On the Lord’s Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure;”

1. etc, etc, etc…there is much more in the Didache that shows the early as being Catholic.
   A) They had the sacrament of confession:
   “In the congregation thou shalt confess thy transgressions, and thou shalt not betake thyself to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life.”
   “On the Lord’s Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure;”

B) They had a structured church, in fact the Didache gives instructions on the selection of Bishops and Deacons.
“Appoint therefore for yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, meek men, and not lovers of money, and truthful and approved, for they also minister to you the ministry of the prophets and teachers.”

Again then it’s back to having faith… in this case in the ECFs, in their writings, in the Catholic interpretations of those writings.

 

[Sy_Noe]

none of them. i have issues with the bible that they claim is inerrant and take literally.

I have read the New Testament and some of the Old but i find too many verses (like ask and you shall receive; where two are gathered; two luminaries; the moon will turn off its light; the smallest seed; etc.) that don’t hold water to follow it blindly. i have seen footnotes in catholic bibles which state such and such verse wasn’t in earlier bibles. we don’t even know if what we have are the real teachings of Christ.

as important is the confusion among the members of the church; just look at the confusion on this thread. even off the net some say you need to believe all the church teaches and others say you don’t. i have talked to priest who seemed to shy to say other then its okay. which brings me to the original question …why all the rules. I guess the narrow gate is paved with these rules and they are the reason few enter in.

but i do believe in the call of the Holy Spirit and that is why I seek answers.

Who truly knows? When one gets right down to it, it does take a leap of faith. Even Catholics who insist they know can only do so by faith and believing they do. To even begin to get to that point they have to have faith in God. Something atheists do not. Faith in the NT story of the Risen Christ. Something those of the Jewish faith do not. Faith in the Catholic Church and what the Catholic Church teaches and faith in the Catholic Church over the course of time. Something those of Protestant faith do not share. But I sure do wish you well in your search and journey. God’s blessings and peace be with you.

 

[Millie123]

Again then it’s back to having faith… in this case in the ECFs, in their writings, in the Catholic interpretations of those writings.

I’m a little confused by your post to me. I kind of think that your post to me is somewhat of a non-sequitur. My initial post was not in any way a response to any of your points …But was a response to Upant. He hypothesizes that the early church did not worship or hold beliefs in the way the Catholic church believes and worships today. I disagree with his conclusion, and I believe in fact that the church does continue to believe and worship in very much the same way the early Christians believed and worshiped. My response to him was to illustrate why I disagree with his hypothesis.

 

[CRATUS]

If the church can write the rules that will be bound in heaven; why are there so many ways to fall short and end up in hell? It is supposed to be so easy a child can understand. I’d like to meet the child that can understand the entire catechism.

To clarify it seems the early church just needed Jesus and to follow his rules. Now you have to believe in the saints, Mary, Trinity, abstain, go to mass, etc. etc. etc.

If the church dropped all of the trappings and went back to a basic worship in Jesus it would be easier for many to enter heaven.

just my nickles worth

Lol. I do not know why this sounded funny to me. Going to mass is the 3 or 4 Commandment. The sacraments are supposed to bring us closer to heaven? I guess. I do not know much either. I think Lent is optional - if that is what you mean by abstain. Do you mean abstain from meat every Friday or from sex before marriage? I can understand why other Christian denominations are critical of the complexity of the Catholic faith.

 

[CRATUS]

Jesus said the road to Heaven is narrow and difficult to follow and the road to Hell is wide and easy to follow. If properly understood the teachings of the Catholic Church is much easier. safer, and peaceful to follow. Sin is a heavy burden, guilt is a pull on your heart! No one who lives a life of sin is truly happy, free or peaceful. The Sacraments of the Catholic Church are the source of strength to live a good life. Children can understand the Catholic Church if taught to them at their level of understanding in truth. You want to eliminate the very things that help us walk that narrow path to Heaven. I wouldn’t trade the Peace and Joy and security for following the teachings of the Catholic Church for any sinful pleasure on the face of this earth. God Bless, Memaw

Do you honestly believe people outside of the Catholic faith who live in sin carry guilt? I am not saying this to sound rude but that is question I battle with. I actually want to write a book centered on the idea - who really needs God?

 

[DavidFilmer]

Yes you’re right. I did. I have a Baptismal certificate issued shortly after birth

Then you were placed in a state of Grace.

and an updated copy with my Confirmation just 10 yrs later

That’s nice, but not necessary.

So iow I lost my grace because I didn’t follow what I don’t have faith or belief in.

But you don’t need faith or beliefs. You need Grace. You got that.

So iow faithful Catholics and the Catholic Church say I’m certain to go to hell in my current state.

There is no such certainty. Did you miss my post where I explained that nothing you do (or don’t do) is automatically a mortal sin? That idea is actually heresy. If you wish to accuse the Church of teaching this heresy, please do us the courtesy of citing the Catechism or Canon Law or something.

I could have missed one Mass and if I never repented it I’m in a state of mortal of sin and certain of going to hell.

Missing Mass is not automatically mortally sinful. The only way it could be mortally sinful is if you ALSO had complete knowledge that missing mass COULD be mortally sinful, and you willingly and deliberately did it, with full knowledge and complete freewill consent that deliberately missing Mass consigns you to hell.

Did you do that? Would you do that? Would you willingly do ANYTHING that you knew would consign you to hell? If you would never do such a thing, then you have (probably) not committed a mortal sin. On the other hand, if your recreational hobby is shooting up schoolyards full of children then you may (MAY! really, may!) fall into a different category.

The Church teaches that a sin is not mortal unless we have 100% knowledge of the mortally sinful nature of the act, and we have 100% freewill consent. 99.9% of EITHER criteria renders the sin venial, not mortal. A hundred billion venial sins do not endanger your salvation.

This is WHY the Church’s top theologians have discussed and argued this for at least 700 years (which is 200 years longer than they argued Immaculate Conception). Is it “easy” or “hard” for a person of good will to even commit a mortal sin? Is it even possible? Any Catholic is free to believe that it is possible but highly unlikely (because any Catholic is free to believe that hell exists, but it is empty).

 

[steve_b]

There are how many Catholics in the US? In the world? And how many of those practice? And counting the non Catholics who Jesus will undoubtedly include due to not knowing any better, exactly how is it that you know what Jesus meant by a few?

And what does Jesus saying only a few go to heaven, mean to you?
S:

I know your question was not addressed to me but how’s this for a short version? Missing Mass is believed to be grave by those of Catholic faith due to the Catholic Church believing it is the one true Church and Catholics are to be obedient to the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. And it is thus an obligation and it is believed the Mass is where Christ is and Catholics join with Him in worship to honor and love God and to keep holy His day.

You didn’t open up the link. #22

Your argument isn’t with me, it’s with scripture

 

[St_Redemption]

Of course, the Church says no such thing. There is no such thing as an act that you could do (or not do) and automatically go to hell. Only unconfessed mortal sin can consign us to hell, and mortal sin has three parts: grave matter (the act itself), full knowledge, and complete intent. The act is only 1/3 of the equation.

If a person lives life wonderfully and admirably, sincerely loves Jesus and goes about his life in a charitable and loving manner, but has a weak moment and commits a mortal sin, and 5 minutes later he dies suddenly, he is doomed? And the person who has lived a much less admirable life, he commits a mortal sin, yet has sufficient time to repent, does so and is saved? Would this be considered a true statement by Catholic Theology?

I honestly don’t know. That’s why I ask.

 

[steve_b]

none of them. i have issues with the bible that they claim is inerrant and take literally.

I have read the New Testament and some of the Old but i find too many verses (like ask and you shall receive; where two are gathered; two luminaries; the moon will turn off its light; the smallest seed; etc.) that don’t hold water to follow it blindly. i have seen footnotes in catholic bibles which state such and such verse wasn’t in earlier bibles. we don’t even know if what we have are the real teachings of Christ.

your skepticism of scripture is noted. Now what?
u:

as important is the confusion among the members of the church; just look at the confusion on this thread. even off the net some say you need to believe all the church teaches and others say you don’t.

Do you ever ask people for references properly referenced for what they believe and why they believe?
u:

i have talked to priest who seemed to shy to say other then its okay. which brings me to the original question …why all the rules.

You want to live in society with no rules?
u:

I guess the narrow gate is paved with these rules and they are the reason few enter in.
but i do believe in the call of the Holy Spirit and that is why I seek answers.

You’re in the right place for answers

 

[Bookcat]

Tis not “about rules” though of course rules (even in games and on the road) are important…

“Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI Deus Caritas Est

““To gaze upon Christ!” If we do this, we realize that Christianity is more than and different from a moral code, from a series of requirements and laws. It is the gift of a friendship that lasts through life and death: “No longer do I call you servants, but friends” (Jn 15:15), the Lord says to his disciples. We entrust ourselves to this friendship. Yet precisely because Christianity is more than a moral system, because it is the gift of friendship, for this reason it also contains within itself great moral strength, which is so urgently needed today on account of the challenges of our time. If with Jesus Christ and his Church we constantly re-read the Ten Commandments of Sinai, entering into their full depth, then a great, valid and lasting teaching unfolds before us. The Ten Commandments are first and foremost a “yes” to God, to a God who loves us and leads us, who carries us and yet allows us our freedom: indeed, it is he who makes our freedom real (the first three commandments). It is a “yes” to the family (fourth commandment), a “yes” to life (fifth commandment), a “yes” to responsible love (sixth commandment), a “yes” to solidarity, to social responsibility and to justice (seventh commandment), a “yes” to truth (eighth commandment) and a “yes” to respect for other people and for what is theirs (ninth and tenth commandments). By the strength of our friendship with the living God we live this manifold “yes” and at the same time we carry it as a signpost into this world of ours today.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI 8 September 2007

““I want them to understand that it is beautiful to be a Christian! The generally prevailing idea is that Christians have to observe an immense number of commandments, prohibitions, precepts, and other such restrictions, so that Christianity is a heavy and oppressive way of living, and it would therefore be more liberating to live without all these burdens. But I would like to make it clear that to be sustained by this great Love and God’s sublime revelation is not a burden, but rather a set of wings—that it is truly beautiful to be a Christian. It is an experience that gives us room to breathe and move, but most of all, it places us within a community since, as Christians, we are never alone: first of all, there is God, who is always with us; secondly, we are always forming a great community among ourselves: a community of people together on a journey, a community with a project for the future. All of this means that we are empowered to live a life worth living. This is the joy of being a Christian: that it is beautiful and right to believe!””

~Pope Benedict XVI 2005

(quotes snipped from Vatican website:www.vatican.va)

 

[zz912]

If a person lives life wonderfully and admirably, sincerely loves Jesus and goes about his life in a charitable and loving manner, but has a weak moment and commits a mortal sin, and 5 minutes later he dies suddenly, he is doomed? And the person who has lived a much less admirable life, he commits a mortal sin, yet has sufficient time to repent, does so and is saved? Would this be considered a true statement by Catholic Theology?

I honestly don’t know. That’s why I ask.

You’re portraying the mortal sin in a manner that it was an accident or mistake. A mortal sin is deliberate. Your understanding of this will be flawed if you equate mortal sins with mistakes or accidents.

 

[Sarcelle]

none of them. i have issues with the bible that they claim is inerrant and take literally.

I have read the New Testament and some of the Old but i find too many verses (like ask and you shall receive; where two are gathered; two luminaries; the moon will turn off its light; the smallest seed; etc.) that don’t hold water to follow it blindly. i have seen footnotes in catholic bibles which state such and such verse wasn’t in earlier bibles. we don’t even know if what we have are the real teachings of Christ.

as important is the confusion among the members of the church; just look at the confusion on this thread. even off the net some say you need to believe all the church teaches and others say you don’t. i have talked to priest who seemed to shy to say other then its okay. which brings me to the original question …why all the rules. I guess the narrow gate is paved with these rules and they are the reason few enter in.

but i do believe in the call of the Holy Spirit and that is why I seek answers.

I would caution you against using this forum solely as a source for the answers to your question. It can be used as a supplement but your best bet would be a class in your local parish. Even better yet pray for a spiritual advisor.

It can be daunting. I was raised atheist so I have been in your shoes and you bet I had a lot of issues with Catholic doctrine. However through the grace of God, it has been mostly resolved. Now the teachings of th Church make perfect sense to me.

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. So just put one foot in front of the other and begin your journey. Pray the whole time.

 

[zz912]

Any Catholic is perfectly free to believe that hell exists but it is empty. This is not contrary to any Catholic doctrine.

It most certainly is. The belief in an empty hell is contrary to Catholic doctrine.

1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “**Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”**616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. I**mmediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”**617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, **and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth.”**619

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"623 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, **and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."624 **Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and **he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, **but the righteous into eternal life."625

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare.626 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When “our God comes, he does not keep silence.”. . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . “I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. **But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence.”**627

 

[dsfgsadfgsdfg]

none of them. i have issues with the bible that they claim is inerrant and take literally.

I have read the New Testament and some of the Old but i find too many verses (like ask and you shall receive; where two are gathered; two luminaries; the moon will turn off its light; the smallest seed; etc.) that don’t hold water to follow it blindly. i have seen footnotes in catholic bibles which state such and such verse wasn’t in earlier bibles. we don’t even know if what we have are the real teachings of Christ.

as important is the confusion among the members of the church; just look at the confusion on this thread. even off the net some say you need to believe all the church teaches and others say you don’t. i have talked to priest who seemed to shy to say other then its okay. which brings me to the original question …why all the rules. I guess the narrow gate is paved with these rules and they are the reason few enter in.

but i do believe in the call of the Holy Spirit and that is why I seek answers.

Upant, as I was reading through this thread then got to your comment–just look a the confusion on this thread–I snickered. Sometimes it can seem like folks are picking up a stick to hit someone else. But that’s not the case. Faith is deeply personal.

Bless you for reaching out in the first place.
You’re right about reading the Bible. Sometimes I just get lost in the words. Sometimes I find myself just saying-wait, what, and have to re-read something. I’m very fortunate that there are a few priests/pastors who I greatly admire and I can just say–hey, I was reading this last night and I just don’t get it. I usually get a chuckle then an explanation that I can understand. It really does help. And the parables–sometimes I can understand and sometimes I can’t. So back to the priest/pastor–oh, got another one. Have you reached one of the parts that lists the lineage? Its hard getting through the list of names and quite honestly I have to say the names real slow, like when you’re trying to pronounce a word. Sometimes it sounds like I’m in 3rd grade. But that’s ok. I’m pushing through.

I love that you have started your walk in faith.
I love that you have questions.
I love that you are reading the bible.

Peace be with you.

 

[St_Redemption]

You’re portraying the mortal sin in a manner that it was an accident or mistake. A mortal sin is deliberate. Your understanding of this will be flawed if you equate mortal sins with mistakes or accidents.

Are there human beings, aside from Jesus (and some would say Mary) who have lived an entire adult life free of mortal sin?

But I take it from your response that the answer is yes. Am I right? Im trying to figure out why some people would get a chance to repent and some wouldn’t. Probably an unanswerable question.

 

[Church_Militant]

To the OP’s initial topic…

No…no more so than Christ Himself did. See Matthew 7

"[13] "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. [14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

 

[Sy_Noe]

I’m a little confused by your post to me. I kind of think that your post to me is somewhat of a non-sequitur. My initial post was not in any way a response to any of your points …But was a response to Upant. He hypothesizes that the early church did not worship or hold beliefs in the way the Catholic church believes and worships today. I disagree with his conclusion, and I believe in fact that the church does continue to believe and worship in very much the same way the early Christians believed and worshiped. My response to him was to illustrate why I disagree with his hypothesis.

Sorry I didn’t realize we could only respond to posts specifically addressed to us.

 

[Genesis315]

If the church can write the rules that will be bound in heaven; why are there so many ways to fall short and end up in hell? It is supposed to be so easy a child can understand. I’d like to meet the child that can understand the entire catechism.

To clarify it seems the early church just needed Jesus and to follow his rules. Now you have to believe in the saints, Mary, Trinity, abstain, go to mass, etc. etc. etc.

If the church dropped all of the trappings and went back to a basic worship in Jesus it would be easier for many to enter heaven.

just my nickles worth

All those truths and practices help us to know, worship, and follow Jesus to Heaven. Without them, it would be more difficult to actually follow him down His path. Many who claim to know and follow Jesus do not actually know His way and truth, and won’t therefore find His life. Not all who say “Lord, Lord” will be saved according to Jesus, but only those who do His will.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Then you were placed in a state of Grace.

That’s nice, but not necessary.

But you don’t need faith or beliefs. You need Grace. You got that.

There is no such certainty. Did you miss my post where I explained that nothing you do (or don’t do) is automatically a mortal sin? That idea is actually heresy. If you wish to accuse the Church of teaching this heresy, please do us the courtesy of citing the Catechism or Canon Law or something.

Missing Mass is not automatically mortally sinful. The only way it could be mortally sinful is if you ALSO had complete knowledge that missing mass COULD be mortally sinful, and you willingly and deliberately did it, with full knowledge and complete freewill consent that deliberately missing Mass consigns you to hell.

Did you do that? Would you do that? Would you willingly do ANYTHING that you knew would consign you to hell? If you would never do such a thing, then you have (probably) not committed a mortal sin. On the other hand, if your recreational hobby is shooting up schoolyards full of children then you may (MAY! really, may!) fall into a different category.

The Church teaches that a sin is not mortal unless we have 100% knowledge of the mortally sinful nature of the act, and we have 100% freewill consent. 99.9% of EITHER criteria renders the sin venial, not mortal. A hundred billion venial sins do not endanger your salvation.

This is WHY the Church’s top theologians have discussed and argued this for at least 700 years (which is 200 years longer than they argued Immaculate Conception). Is it “easy” or “hard” for a person of good will to even commit a mortal sin? Is it even possible? Any Catholic is free to believe that it is possible but highly unlikely (because any Catholic is free to believe that hell exists, but it is empty).

But I do need faith and belief to remain in a state of grace as the Catholic Church defines “in a state of grace”.

Taking just the Mass… I have 100% full knowledge the Catholic Church teaches it is Christ’s one and only true Church and I have 100% full knowledge the Catholic Church teaches that missing Mass is grave and with full knowledge of this and intent, it would be a mortal sin. And if then I miss and don’t repent missing Mass before I die, that I am assigned to hell. I have full knowledge of what the Catholic Church teaches about missing Mass. But despite receiving grace, I do not have the faith to believe it. So I willingly miss.

 

[zz912]

Are there human beings, aside from Jesus (and some would say Mary) who have lived an entire adult life free of mortal sin?

But I take it from your response that the answer is yes. Am I right? Im trying to figure out why some people would get a chance to repent and some wouldn’t. Probably an unanswerable question.

There are a few, Joseph, Job, St. Therese of Liseux, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Padre Pio just off the top of my head.

We don’t know if God gives people a chance to repent just before the final bit of life flickers out in our bodies. But to answer your question, Jesus warns us that we do not know the hour when God will call us, so we should always be prepared. If we were all promised an opportunity before dying to repent, think of the MASSIVE temptation that would bring!!! People would know they could commit any and all sins they want, and were guaranteed a chance to repent of them before death.

That’s not how God set up our universe. Every moment counts, and we do not know when our moments will end on this earth. That is why we should always strive to keep pure and free from sin, and to repent all the time of our sin.