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TK421
Guest
How can a Church make it too hard to get into Heaven? It creates nothing: it only reveals what God reveals to it. There are metaphysical realities about what is good, and by default, what is evil.
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steve_b
Guest
This isn’t quite what the Church says, as the CCC doesn’t carry any decimals to the thousandths…Please note that the term “Full Knowledge” is not equal to perfect knowledge, the latter likely equating with your “100%”. Full knowledge is described as "
knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law." - that’s all, and it’s pretty straight forward. Did you extrapolate the “100%” from another source, or did you ignore the rather mundane level of knowledge actually contained in the CCC??
In addition, “along with complete (100%, not 99.999%) freewill consent” is also a distortion of what is actually said. The degree of consent is described as “a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice” . Once again, that is not some ridiculously high standard that anyone needs to be doubting we can achieve. So I’m not sure why you have this insistence that mortal sin is rare.
I am sure that what you’ve provided to justify believing it (CCC#1859) doesn’t actually justify your believing it.
Once again you’ve distorted the text; there simply is no language that says or even implies that we won’t be “kicking or screaming that there has been some mistake.”
**1033 **We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. **To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. **This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
The bolding is mine - the black bolded phrase containing “our own free choice” is referring to those free choices we made during our mortal lives at the top of the paragraph. The blue bolded sentence also, again, refutes your notion that we don’t need to “do anything other than be Baptized” as it explicitly states that we have an obligation to “meet the serious needs of the poor …” and that failure TO DO so results in separation from Him.
Duly noted. The problem with your questioning - as I have demonstrated - is that you base it on faulty extrapolations of what the CCC actually says.
By the way, what is meant by a Christian person of good will?? Is good 50%? Can a Christian person who is engaging in adultery or murder simultaneously be a Christain person of good will? If so, would that be the exception or the rule?
No, it does not support his position at all. It simply fails to refute it. But plenty of other things refute it:
- The Sacraments other than Baptism - they’re essentially useless if mortal sin is impossible.
- Mass - total waste of time
- Declaring Canonized Saints, as if their lives were somehow worthy of imitation when in reality (your reality anyhow) billions of average people are in Heaven. This last point is also completely at odds with your claim that we don’t need to “do” anything as Christians…since most of them led lives of action with respect to their faith and the Church, through the inspiration of the HS has seen fit to hold up their lives as an example while ignoring the “average” people who went to Heaven.
- The fact that canonized Saints went to Confession regularly during their earthly lives - why would they do this if they didn’t believe they were in mortal sin and the Church only required it once a year?
well said.
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Philthy
Guest
Hi Sy Noe
The Church never judges an individual as “going to Hell”. The Church simply tries to communicate the Truth regarding faith and morals. The Truth is that there are certain free will choices that are sinful; some of these sins are so serious that they can jeopardize your state of grace. The Church has a duty to communicate this to all mankind. At the same time the Church reveals that one’s degree of guilt with respect to these sins is affected by what they know and the degree of freedom they used in choosing to sin. While the Church may have a decent idea of one’s state of knowledge, it DOES NOT AND CANNOT know the degree of freedom exercised in choosing to sin. THEREFORE the Church can NEVER JUDGE AN INDIVIDUAL as going to Hell or not.
Get over it. The Catholic Church does not condemn you. It’s not that complicated.
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TK421
Guest
That isn’t the reason canonized saints went to regular Confession.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
I’m a mathematician. I realize the Magisterium is not comprised of mathematicians, but I expect they understand the plain meaning of the words “full” and “complete.”
Please note that the term “Full Knowledge” is not equal to perfect knowledge, the latter likely equating with your “100%”. Full knowledge is described as"
knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law." - that’s all, and it’s pretty straight forward.
But, surely, “knowledge of the sinful character of the act” would include knowledge of the MORTALLY sinful character of the act (especially since this definition was given in context to mortal sin). Otherwise, you would claim that we can be guilty of mortal sin without knowing it (and I don’t think that’s what you are claiming).
Oh, c’mon. I cited it already. I’ll cite it again, in the way that Steve prefers (because I think he was right, and have reverted my Perl program):
[Philthy goes on to cite the same article with a bunch of color tags that I don’t care to try to detangle/quote. I write *programs to decode markup. But on to the essence]
It is whatever is meant by the angel in Luke 2:14: “Glory to God in the highest; and on earth peace to men of good will.”
I can think of examples in which people of good will might be forced to engage in these acts, against their free will.
The rule is full knowledge and complete consent. The exception is anything that diminishes either knowledge or consent. Such as having a gun to your head (or your child’s head).
But that is, at least, a type of support. Yes, it is not definitive, but it would be SO EASY for the Church to teach otherwise.
This ought to be good.
I never said mortal sin was impossible. Gangsters can commit mortal sin. And they can find forgiveness in the Church. The Church is here for gangsters also.
But, you DO understand that I’m NOT talking about gangsters, don’t you?
Eucharist nourishes and fortifies our souls, making us less susceptible to mortal sin.
Mass is, indeed, a waste of time to anyone who is actually GUILTY of mortal sin, as they receive no Grace, and can suffer additional culpability if they dare to receive Eucharist.
Well, on second thought, it is better that they attend (but not receive). Maybe this will dispose them to repentance.
That’s an unusual objection. Would a lot of people in heaven somehow render the lives of the Saints irrelevant?
So you think that only canonized Catholic Saints who practiced heroic virtue are in heaven?
There’s a Canonized Catholic Saint (and Doctor of the Church) who taught that ordinary people living workaday lives can become Saints. This Saint is Thérèse of Lisieux, and she was named Doctor of the Church for her teaching of the “Little Way.” She is the third Carmelite Saint named Doctor of the Church for similar teachings (the two others being St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila).
This is like a current thread in this forum asking how Mary could have obeyed the requirement to offer a sacrifice for sin after the birth of Jesus.
The Church encourages frequent Confession. If Saints exceed the minimum, it should not be considered a personal flaw.
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zz912
Guest
Actually Jesus AND the Church have both taught that hell is NOT empty. Belief in an empty hell is contrary to the faith. The Church has not declared that any particular person is in hell, but it DOES teach that people are and will go to hell.
1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 **Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,”**615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death** the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell**, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,** that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. **For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619
1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"623 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."624 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."625
1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare.626 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:
All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When “our God comes, he does not keep silence.”. . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."627
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fred_conty
Guest
Does the Church make it too hard to get into heaven?
That question sounds very similar to … does Jesus make it too hard to get into heaven? For the Church is his right hand.
The Church was established for the opposite reason … to help people into heaven.
Jesus said he came to save sinners and not the just. He left with his Church the spiritual tools to do that. And one of those tools is the truths of God which never change.
The Church is the shepherd who continuously looks after her flock, watching over them, feeding them, and bringing them back.
Sometimes a person may have a problem with some moral teaching of the church, or for that matter that of faith. And it may seem that there is too much to be able to live by. And so it seems that the church just loads up our camel’s back with more that we can bear and makes it all the more difficult to be good christians.
Ah but, the moral and faith teachings are diamonds in the rough. Many don’t see them as treasures, but only see the outside roughness. That is, they do not see the love of God in those very treasures … to help us become good as he is good … to help us to be good as heaven is good. To see his valuable lessons as part of his legacy of love for us.
Jesus gave us his church and said, “he who hears you hears me” because he wanted us to know that he is still our shepherd and gives us good things from his treasures. And telling us what is right and wrong is one of them … if the person has his faith glasses on. For then we keep out of danger from the enemy who is filling us with lies.
So a good man, and a wise man, will use the church because he sees in it the love that Jesus has for us to keep us away from harm and close to him…seeking the will of the Father.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
Hi Philthy,
I am over it. I did leave the practice. I have the CCC verse I quoted which I know you say doesn’t apply in my case. And David says being aware is not enough to mean someone knows. But then otoh I have someone say on another thread which I linked to, that being aware of what the Church teaches is indeed enough to know. And Steve says what the CC says is truth must be believed by faith.
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Vico
Guest
They fall short because they do not love one another.
John 13
34 I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
Matthew 7
13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
Matthew 23
13 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter.
**Matthew 25
** 41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Philippians 2
12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
I am a mathematician by training (ie, it was my college major). So I do these conversions in my head. Is there a definition of “full” or “complete” that would fall short of 100%?
I’m not sure that human beings are capable of any sort of “perfect knowledge.” I’m pretty sure only God has perfect knowledge of anything.
Do you deliberately insert color tags into your posts? It makes it hard to quote you in replies.
I didn’t “extrapolate” anything. I transliterated natural words like “full” and “complete” into a mathematical concept (ratio of unity). If you have a definition of “full” or “complete” that could be represented as 99.999% then I would be interested to hear it.
Um, yeah. I think that’s what I said. Are you saying that a “personal choice” is somehow distinct from freewill consent? Yeah, you can change the words around, but you cannot change their meaning.
Are you saying the Church has some ridiculously high standard?
On the contrary, I think it is widespread. But I think that many are not people of good will (whatever the Angel meant by that phrase). I think mortal sin is uncommon among Christians of good will.
As you well know, neither of us can cite any actual Church teaching regarding whether it is “easy” or “hard” for a Christian of good will to fall into mortal sin. So I cannot justify my opinion in the CCC, and neither can you. I have never maintained that my opinion represents Church doctrine (except with obvious sarcasm, intended to critique Steve’s unfounded insistence).
Oh, c’mon! I cited it, and so did you. I will cite it again (hey, Steve, this is what you prefer. I was wrong in my previous experiment):
OF COURSE! It is our own free choice. Otherwise, we could commit mortal sin without complete consent. Which we CANNOT do.
CONTINUED
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DavidFilmer
Guest
Um, yes, I am aware (and have said many times on this Forum) that mortal sin can be either a sin of commission or omission.
Again, if you think I have mathematically misrepresented the plain meaning of the plain English words “full” and/or “complete” then I ask you to demonstrate it. Hey, I gave you the dictionary links. Show me what you’ve got.
Or do you claim that the English translation of the Catechism is faulty?
I don’t know. It is whatever the Angel meant when proclaiming,
As far as the exact criteria I think that is known to God alone.
No, [the fact that there is no actual Catholic doctrine here] does not support his position at all. It simply fails to refute it.
But that is a type of support.
This ought to be good.
I agree completely (though I would have chosen “ineffective” over “useless”). But I have never said mortal sin is impossible. Lots of Catholics commit mortal sin (Catholic gangsters, for example).
Mass has nothing to do with (actual) mortal sin. Those in mortal sin are not welcome at Eucharist in the first place. But valid reception of Eucharist can nourish and fortify us to make us less disposed to temptation.
- Declaring Canonized Saints, as if their lives were somehow worthy of imitation when in reality (your reality anyhow) billions of average people are in Heaven.
I never made any such claim. But let’s look at your argument.
So can we agree that it is possible that SOMEBODY is in heaven who has not been canonized? And, if we can agree on that, why can we not agree that billions are likewise in heaven? Besides the fact that we cannot actually agree, because I have never said such a thing. But we could agree that it is possible, yes?
That seems to be a very condescending attitude.
There is a Carmelite Saint who was named a Doctor of the Church for her teaching that ordinary laypeople can achieve spiritual PERFECTION (not just sainthood) through their workaday secular lives. I doubt you are aware of what spiritual perfection is. It is the complete aversion to ALL sin, both venial and mortal. This Carmelite Saint further completed the teachings of two other Carmelite Saints and Doctors of the Church, namely St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross.
This Saint and Doctor of the Church is St. Thérèse of Lisieux, who was recognized as Doctor because of her teaching of her “Little Way.”
The Church encourages frequent Confession. The Pope confesses daily (by longstanding tradition, to a Dominican priest).
Are you saying that Saints were mortal sinners because they availed themselves of frequent confession?
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Philthy
Guest
Hi Sy -
The fact that you are here seeking opinions would seem to contradict your claim that you are “over it”.
The fact that David says one thing regarding knowledge while Steve says another and a link says something else, is irrelevant. The plain fact is that NO ONE can judge your DEGREE OF FREEDOM in choosing to act and for this reason no human can judge you perfectly. Ask any one of those sources, “Do you know whether I am in a state of mortal sin?” and you will all of a sudden see them in agreement that they don’t know. It’s that simple. If you haven’t been able to understand this after my last post then it likely you lack sufficient education to substantially participate in the discussion on this point.
In the mystery of the human person, God’s grace interacts with our free will and in the place we refer to as the “heart” or conscience, we choose to accept or reject God. Be diligent in pursuing God’s Truth in both prayer and intellectual study. Be sure that - in addition to Scripture - you have good sources that pass the tests of reason and history.
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Vico
Guest
The Church must provide the the sacraments and teaching of revealed truth, and is bound to avoid scandal (such as giving sacraments to those in objective manifest sin). Only God and the individual and who the individual reveals it to, know the state of contrition, so being culpable is not known unless a person reveals it to others. The cause of going to Hell is lack of final repentance.
As a result of baptism we receive gifts of the Holy Spirit including faith. The grace is sufficient for us to maintain faith, hope, and charity, but we may oppose it willfully. The Church teaches that we must give our assent to what it teaches with moral certainty (we do not have to understand it logically). It is*** meritorious ***to give assent by faith as opposed to agreeing because one has a logical understanding. For example, we do assent to transubstantiation dogma but it is mystery to our intellect how it can be true.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
First off, let me apologize if I lack sufficient education to substantially participate here. Nor am I looking for opinions. I am looking for the Catholic Church’s one answer. I have revealed my current state in other posts. Am I in mortal sin? And if not, may I receive Jesus in the Eucharist without confessing to a priest prior to or afterwards as long as I discern His Body and Blood and fast beforehand as required? Or in my current state is the Catholic Church saying I will go to hell?
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davidv
Guest
No one on the forum should answers these questions. These are exclusively you and your confessors responsibility to answer in the privacy of the confessional or private consultation.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
I respect that and that confession to a priest in the Catholic faith is the normative way. But the thing is I believe in more than one way to confess. I understand the power to forgive or retain. But to a priest would only be one way in which I believe I could do it. For instance everytime I recite Our Lord’s Prayer I confess my trespasses and ask for His forgiveness.
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MarkInOregon
Guest
It seems to me that you don’t “know that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ” and knowing that refuse to enter it or remain in it. Knowing that the Catholic Church is what it claims to be and knowing what it claims are not the same thing. It seems that you know what the Church claims to be but do not believe it is what is claims to be.
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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phil19034
Guest
I recommend watching Bishop Robert Barron’s keynote talk at the World Meeting of Families.
youtube.com/watch?v=yqAYiaTM67w
It starts at 12 minutes (but the first 12 minutes are worth watching)
God Bless
youtube.com/watch?v=yqAYiaTM67w
It starts at 12 minutes (but the first 12 minutes are worth watching)
God Bless
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Sy_Noe
Guest
That’s what some others have said as well which I can understand. Yet I have also been told being aware is enough which I can also understand. So if I don’t know then I’m not in mortal sin and I may receive the Eucharist? What I don’t understand though is why this needs to be so difficult to get one Catholic Church answer to with a single consensus.
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steve_b
Guest
Sorry to hear that.
Sy:
To the main question, the Church doesn’t make it hard to get into heaven. It is the way to heaven through teaching and the sacraments and obedience to this faith.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Timothy+3:15&version=RSVCE
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