Does the Catholic Church recognize the story of Noah and the flood as being literally true?

[itinerant1]

Then you seem to say we need not treat the genealogies literally. I’m ok with that.

Literally, the message is that Jesus is connected to the leading recipients of the messianic promises. He is the one Israel has waited for. The details of how Matthew conveys that message are not that precise in how we think of genealogies, perhaps due to the Mormons, and our sense of history, which is a sense of history that wasn’t shared by the ancient Jews. The numerical symbolism in the Matthew’s genealogy conveys more of a message than would an historically accurate Mormon like genealogy.

The Gospel According to Matthew is full of symbolism, the meanings of which were not lost on his readers. In Luke, for instance, we have a sermon on the plain. Matthew changes the context and describes a sermon on a mountain. The readers knew what a sermon on the mountain indicated. It meant that Jesus is the New Lawgiver, just as Moses was the Old Lawgiver who having received the Old Law on a mountain. Matthew portrays Jesus as the new Moses and the new lawgiver. And this is what his readers needed to know.

Any over-concern about the details of the genealogy can cause one to miss the message.

 

[diggerdomer]

Literally, the message is that Jesus is connected to the leading recipients of the messianic promises. He is the one Israel has waited for. The details of how Matthew conveys that message are not that precise in how we think of genealogies, perhaps due to the Mormons, and our sense of history, which is a sense of history that wasn’t shared by the ancient Jews. The numerical symbolism in the Matthew’s genealogy conveys more of a message than would an historically accurate Mormon like genealogy.

The Gospel According to Matthew is full of symbolism, the meanings of which were not lost on his readers. In Luke, for instance, we have a sermon on the plain. Matthew changes the context and describes a sermon on a mountain. The readers knew what a sermon on the mountain indicated. It meant that Jesus is the New Lawgiver, just as Moses was the Old Lawgiver who having received the Old Law on a mountain. Matthew portrays Jesus as the new Moses and the new lawgiver. And this is what his readers needed to know.

Any over-concern about the details of the genealogy can cause one to miss the message.

Yep, sounds good to me. Just like Noah and the Flood can be interpreted in a non-literal sense.

 

[itinerant1]

Concerning the idea that a flood literally covered the entire earth, Fr. Jaki says,

For such a Flood should have left sediments all over the globe, geological evidence of which are, however, sorely missing. Should one then assume that God had obliterated the traces of a global Flood? Possibly, but what are the biblical proofs of this?

One may be tempted to appeal to the fact that in some deeper layers of the Mesopotamian soil it is possible to find sediments characteristic of flooding. For such sediments to exist, vast amounts of water of floodwaters had to be on hand. Natural rainfall would have had to be enhanced enormously, and far beyond a mere forty days’ worth, if the sea level was to be raised by the three miles necessary to carry Noah’s Ark to the top slopes of Ararat. In that case, the Flood would have expanded far beyond the general region known as Ararat, or a part of the northwestern Mesopotamia. It would have been a global event that would have spared only the upper portions of the Himalayas.

But if heights much lower than the three-mile high peaks of Ararat were meant by the phrase, “the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat,” the Flood would not have been so extensive as to destroy all mankind with the exception of a couple dozen men and women (Noah and “his sons, his wife and his sons’ wives”). Now would all animals on earth have been destroyed save those which Noah entered in the Ark. At any rate, an ark about 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet tall…,could not accommodate samples of the bestiary of the Middle East, nor even a significant portion of it. There was also the logistics of providing all those animals with food for at least forty days, assuming that this number was not a symbol of a very long period. The argument that those animals became comatose while in the Ark works only if one lets one’s intellect fall asleep. Reports about traces of Noah’s ark still lying on the highest slopes of Ararat are best ignored.

One should therefore settle with a fairly localized flood, a flood limited to the Mesopotamian basin, the memory of which survived in Sumerian and Babylonian lore (the Gilgamesh and Athrasis Epics), as well as among Iranians and Hindus, a consensus that must not be taken lightly. (Yet, curiously missing is a clear tradition of a deluge in ancient Egyptian lore.) Physically, the biblical Flood implies the enhancement of natural forces for a purpose which puts Noah’s story in a class apart from other Flood legends. The narrator of Noah’s story stresses God’s mercy together with the assurance that God’s plan of salvation would prevail, physical and moral catastrophes notwithstanding. This spiritual side to the story is also subtly intimated by the symbolism of the dimensions of the ark given in close multiples (or fractions) of 60, the Babylonian base of counting. Such an ark successfully rides out the Flood, whose devastating power is symbolized by its duration of forty days. As to the rainbow, it is not stated that it had not been seen prior to the Flood. Rather, the rainbow, which in other cultures often was taken, because of its resemblance to a huge bow, for a sign of divine punishment, is now presented as a token of the permanence of God’s mercy.”

(Bible and Science by Stanley L. Jaki; Christendom Press,155-7)

 

[itinerant1]

Typo in post above:

“Now would all animals on earth have been destroyed save those which Noah entered in the Ark” should read “Nor would all animals on earth have been destroyed save those which Noah entered in the Ark.”

 

[SHW]

Concerning the idea that a flood literally covered the entire earth, Fr. Jaki says,

For such a Flood should have left sediments all over the globe, geological evidence of which are, however, sorely missing. Should one then assume that God had obliterated the traces of a global Flood? Possibly, but what are the biblical proofs of this?

One may be tempted to appeal to the fact that in some deeper layers of the Mesopotamian soil it is possible to find sediments characteristic of flooding. For such sediments to exist, vast amounts of water of floodwaters had to be on hand. Natural rainfall would have had to be enhanced enormously, and far beyond a mere forty days’ worth, if the sea level was to be raised by the three miles necessary to carry Noah’s Ark to the top slopes of Ararat. In that case, the Flood would have expanded far beyond the general region known as Ararat, or a part of the northwestern Mesopotamia. It would have been a global event that would have spared only the upper portions of the Himalayas.

But if heights much lower than the three-mile high peaks of Ararat were meant by the phrase, “the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat,” the Flood would not have been so extensive as to destroy all mankind with the exception of a couple dozen men and women (Noah and “his sons, his wife and his sons’ wives”). Now would all animals on earth have been destroyed save those which Noah entered in the Ark. At any rate, an ark about 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet tall…,could not accommodate samples of the bestiary of the Middle East, nor even a significant portion of it. There was also the logistics of providing all those animals with food for at least forty days, assuming that this number was not a symbol of a very long period. The argument that those animals became comatose while in the Ark works only if one lets one’s intellect fall asleep. Reports about traces of Noah’s ark still lying on the highest slopes of Ararat are best ignored.

One should therefore settle with a fairly localized flood, a flood limited to the Mesopotamian basin, the memory of which survived in Sumerian and Babylonian lore (the Gilgamesh and Athrasis Epics), as well as among Iranians and Hindus, a consensus that must not be taken lightly. (Yet, curiously missing is a clear tradition of a deluge in ancient Egyptian lore.) Physically, the biblical Flood implies the enhancement of natural forces for a purpose which puts Noah’s story in a class apart from other Flood legends. The narrator of Noah’s story stresses God’s mercy together with the assurance that God’s plan of salvation would prevail, physical and moral catastrophes notwithstanding. This spiritual side to the story is also subtly intimated by the symbolism of the dimensions of the ark given in close multiples (or fractions) of 60, the Babylonian base of counting. Such an ark successfully rides out the Flood, whose devastating power is symbolized by its duration of forty days. As to the rainbow, it is not stated that it had not been seen prior to the Flood. Rather, the rainbow, which in other cultures often was taken, because of its resemblance to a huge bow, for a sign of divine punishment, is now presented as a token of the permanence of God’s mercy.”

(Bible and Science by Stanley L. Jaki; Christendom Press,155-7)

Fr. Jaki is entitled to his OPINION just as all of us are. Since God is the Creator of all “natural” things, then at any time He can choose to make an adjustment in this “natural” order so that His will is fulfilled according to His purpose. He can use natural things such as a comet to fulfill His plan or He can create something entirely new for a special purpose such as choosing to create the Blessed Virgin to be Immaculate and Full of Grace in order to be the mother of His only-begotten Son so that He could redeem us. We call these adjustments or new creations “miracles.”

Evidence of a worldwide flood:
gnmagazine.org/issues/gn47/noahsflood_worldwideflood.htm

earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung/scientific_evidence_for_a_worldwide%20flood.htm

 

[steve711]

I have always seen the Old Testament as a way of teaching the Jewish religion in the form of stories. You must understand that many of these teachings were passed generation to generation by word of mouth, and many things were taught in story form. This does not mean that there was not a great flood in that part of the world that destroyed what was thought of as civilization, as we have found that there have been many huge floods in the past from natural dams breaking and ice melting from glaciers left from the ice age.

I do believe that God did guide the people to do the right things, they just told and wrote the stories in the way people understood them in that era.

I believe when Jesus Christ our Savior was born and the new testament was written, this is the part of the Bible that was written, so that many generations in the future would come to know the truth.

Go with Gods Grace!

 

[itinerant1]

Fr. Jaki is entitled to his OPINION just as all of us are. Since God is the Creator of all “natural” things, then at any time He can choose to make an adjustment in this “natural” order so that His will is fulfilled according to His purpose. He can use natural things such as a comet to fulfill His plan or He can create something entirely new for a special purpose such as choosing to create the Blessed Virgin to be Immaculate and Full of Grace in order to be the mother of His only-begotten Son so that He could redeem us. We call these adjustments or new creations “miracles.”

Evidence of a worldwide flood:
gnmagazine.org/issues/gn47/noahsflood_worldwideflood.htm

earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung/scientific_evidence_for_a_worldwide%20flood.htm

You discount views on the bible and science by learned Catholic scholars in favor of a sectarian literalism. Your sources have more holes in their logic than Swiss cheese.

For example, “Evidence of a Worldwide Flood” by Mario Seiglie, cites Cesar Emiliani who says, “A huge amount of ice-melt water rushed into the Gulf of Mexico and produced a sea-level rise that spread around the world with the speed of a tidal wave.” One would really have to stretch the scientific evidence presented by Emiliani to make it evidence for a global deluge. That is, a rapid rise in sea level due to ice-melt water is hardly the same thing as a three-mile deep inundation. Seiglie just ignores the real difference.

Emiliani next states “It clearly shows that there was a major period of flooding from 12,000 to 10,000 years ago, with a peak about 11,600 years ago.” Oops, the scientific evidence again doesn’t agree with Seiglie’s creationist views, so he has to arbitrarily discount scientific dating of the ice-melt and say Emiliani’s ice melt had to have been 4,300 years ago. LOL This is comical at best.

The same poor logic is used in Seiglie’s discussion of flood stories. People’s that live in areas that have experienced dramatic flooding have flood stories. However, as Jaki noted Egypt lacks a strong flood tradition, but more interesting is the Mesopotamian stories point to a flood that would have been much older than Seiglie’s 4,300.

Still, there is no evidence for a global inundation, which would have left sediment deposits around the world at the same period of time. No such evidence has been found.

Creationists like Seiglie must do mental gymnastics with scientific evidence and biblical interpretation to a least appear to have some basis for their sectarian views.

 

[prettylarge]

The flood narrative is copied from the epic of Gilgamesh but they just threw Yahweh into the mix.

 

[itinerant1]

The flood narrative is copied from the epic of Gilgamesh but they just threw Yahweh into the mix.

There are numerous parallels with Gilgamesh; too many to discount a dependence. But the relationship is certainly not one of “copying”, which is obvious to anyone who has read the Epic of Gilgamesh.

The biblical Flood story is a theological response to the older Gilgamesh stories. The Hebrews re-worked the ancients myths according to their religion and made it stand as a theological polemic against the Babylonian accounts; and it was later worked into the Genesis narrative of Yahweh’s faithfulness to his people.

 

[prettylarge]

There are numerous parallels with Gilgamesh; too many to discount a dependence. But the relationship is certainly not one of “copying”, which is obvious to anyone who has read the Epic of Gilgamesh.

The biblical Flood story is a theological response to the older Gilgamesh stories. The Hebrews re-worked the ancients myths according to their religion and made it stand as a theological polemic against the Babylonian accounts; and it was later worked into the Genesis narrative of Yahweh’s faithfulness to his people.

Yeah, you pretty much said what I said but in much more elegant way.

 

[twinc]

Yeah, you pretty much said what I said but in much more elegant way.

it seems strange to say the least that those who can visualise and imagine other fantastic scenarios like evolution and local floods so vividly cannot imagine what a global flood would entail viz land subsiding to great depths and mountains being pushed up to great heights and tropical lands being turned into deserts and volcanoes erupting in many places where sand[sediment] may not be found and marine fossils being found on high mountains and deserts and millions of dead things buried in sedimentary rock layers all over the earth.A frequently asked question to fault the very idea of a global flood is “where did all the water go to” - the answer is pretty obvious to creationists so may we ask in turn where did all the sand come from where they are found - twinc

 

[prettylarge]

it seems strange to say the least that those who can visualise and imagine other fantastic scenarios like evolution and local floods so vividly cannot imagine what a global flood would entail viz land subsiding to great depths and mountains being pushed up to great heights and tropical lands being turned into deserts and volcanoes erupting in many places where sand[sediment] may not be found and marine fossils being found on high mountains and deserts and millions of dead things buried in sedimentary rock layers all over the earth.A frequently asked question to fault the very idea of a global flood is “where did all the water go to” - the answer is pretty obvious to creationists so may we ask in turn where did all the sand come from where they are found - twinc

Well I can’t imagine a global flood because it is scientifically impossible. Unless the global flood was because every bit of ice on the earth melted, it COULD NOT HAPPEN. And, if anything, the time of the flood was during an ice age. AND the bible said it was a result of rain…which is not possible. It is also not possible to get 2 of every species (or 7 of some animals or whatever version you want to believe) on a boat together. It would not be possible for a man to live 100 years to create the ark or however long it was said to take, and there is no way one man could even construct an ark that big, no matter how long he had. This story, at least how it is told in the Bible, is as likely as Jack in the Bean Stalk or any other fairy tale.

Also, if you were on a boat, do you really think you would be able to tell if the whole world was flooded?? How is that even possible. You can only see so far. If you were in the middle of the of the ocean you could make the argument that the whole world is flooded!!!..and judging only by what you could see, it would sure seem that way. But the whole world wasn’t flooded, you were just stupid and in the middle of the ocean.

 

[CWBetts]

Well I can’t imagine a global flood because it is scientifically impossible. Unless the global flood was because every bit of ice on the earth melted, it COULD NOT HAPPEN. And, if anything, the time of the flood was during an ice age. AND the bible said it was a result of rain…which is not possible. It is also not possible to get 2 of every species (or 7 of some animals or whatever version you want to believe) on a boat together. It would not be possible for a man to live 100 years to create the ark or however long it was said to take, and there is no way one man could even construct an ark that big, no matter how long he had. This story, at least how it is told in the Bible, is as likely as Jack in the Bean Stalk or any other fairy tale.

Also, if you were on a boat, do you really think you would be able to tell if the whole world was flooded?? How is that even possible. You can only see so far. If you were in the middle of the of the ocean you could make the argument that the whole world is flooded!!!..and judging only by what you could see, it would sure seem that way. But the whole world wasn’t flooded, you were just stupid and in the middle of the ocean.

With man, it is impossible, but for God, all things are possible

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding.

Let God be true, and every man a liar.

I’ll stick to the Scriptures, instead of an anonymous rant on an internet forum, if you don’r mind

 

[prettylarge]

With man, it is impossible, but for God, all things are possible

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding.

Let God be true, and every man a liar.

I’ll stick to the Scriptures, instead of an anonymous rant on an internet forum, if you don’r mind

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[CWBetts]

Whatever floats your boat.

The fool has reasoned in his heart, “There is no God”

 

[prettylarge]

The fool has reasoned in his heart, “There is no God”

What are you trying to say here? That I am a fool for not believing in something that is not scientifically possible and there is no archaeological evidence to support it?

Fool: 1. One who is deficient in judgment, sense, or understanding.

I don’t believe in a story that is not scientifically possible. It is not even close to being feasible. Yet I am the fool?

And if someone reasons that there is no God, it is with their brain, and they probably have a logical and sound argument. Do you believe in unicorns too?

 

[CWBetts]

What are you trying to say here? That I am a fool for not believing in something that is not scientifically possible and there is no archaeological evidence to support it?

Fool: 1. One who is deficient in judgment, sense, or understanding.

I don’t believe in a story that is not scientifically possible. It is not even close to being feasible. Yet I am the fool?

And if someone reasons that there is no God, it is with their brain, and they probably have a logical and sound argument. Do you believe in unicorns too?

If you are so smart, then you should be able to refute St. Thomas Aquinas’ five proofs for the existence of god with no real problem. So there it is. Refute them

 

[CWBetts]

Here is a link to help you out:
newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm

 

[steve711]

I see the Noah Biblical story as a religious teaching tradition among the Hebrews. I enjoy listening to the Old Testament readings in church, but do not take them literally. I see them as guides on how to live a good Christian life.

We have similar things happening today. Many scientist saying we have global warming or climate change, when our science today does not have all the facts. So are we to believe in science all the time, I know from experience, I do not.

Go with Gods Grace!

 

[SHW]

it seems strange to say the least that those who can visualise and imagine other fantastic scenarios like evolution and local floods so vividly cannot imagine what a global flood would entail viz land subsiding to great depths and mountains being pushed up to great heights and tropical lands being turned into deserts and volcanoes erupting in many places where sand[sediment] may not be found and marine fossils being found on high mountains and deserts and millions of dead things buried in sedimentary rock layers all over the earth.A frequently asked question to fault the very idea of a global flood is “where did all the water go to” - the answer is pretty obvious to creationists so may we ask in turn where did all the sand come from where they are found - twinc

I agree. The flood did not simply come from 40 days of constant rain. The “fountains of the deep” opened up.

Also, Scripture states that the earth was watered by a mist (before the flood). The flood and the conditions which caused the flood such as underwater volcanoes and land volcanoes and underwater and land earthquakes changed the topography of the earth. This is why there are lakes on top of mountains now. pec.on.ca/other/lotm.html

Genesis 2:5-7
before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Genesis 7:4
For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.”

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Genesis 8:2
The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were also stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained.