Does the Catholic Church recognize the story of Noah and the flood as being literally true?

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Oh, ye of little faith! 😃

Thankfully, faith and the miraculous are not bound by the laws of science.
Well, yea … but I think God as lawgiver is really acting out of character when He capriciously breaks the laws he created to govern the universe. One just cannot outwit the God of Nature – sin bites back HARD!! Nature offers a very severe payback for man’s greed and sin - putting Nature in a position of bringing about famine and pestilence. The drought conditions in Africa can be directly linked to the greedy policies of the government’s in power.

MY POINT: God already set in motions laws that DO NOT REQUIRE His constant and direct intervention. So, when scientists tell me the “foolishness” to consider a worldwide flood and give substantial reasons to consider – it’s not a lack of faith in God on my part to believe them – it’s rather just the opposite; a demonstration how God BUILD INTO Nature the means to do His will without any overt intervention on His part. To my way of thinking - THAT IS TOTALLY AWESOME!!

MonFrere
 
And if not, on what basis is it considered allegorical and not true? Why would Noah’s story be false, and our original parents Adam and Eve be true? How do you reconcile the similarities between the story of Noah and other ancient flood stories?
The contrast between allegorical and true is misleading. An allegory can be true. It can express truth in a figurative way. The question of the allegory’s meaning pertains to what the author is teaching, what his message is. Not everything in an allegory is what is being taught. For instance, many details may just provide the setting for the story. Those details of place, time, persons, and so on, may be fact or not. That does not matter because those kinds of things are not the message.

An allegory may have an historical basis, but that is not a necessary, or even common feature, especially if the message is a religious or moral one. Aesop’s fables are easily recognized as fables, so no one asks if they are historical, as if a fox could talk, and so on. Still, the fables are still true. The truth in Aesop’s fables is often a moral truth.

When it comes to the Deluge story with Noah, the matter is not as simple as it is with identifying Aesop’s works as fables. The Deluge story needs to be recognized as to its proper literary genre, or genus litterarium, in order to correctly interpret the story and discern the author’s message. Identifying the* genus litterarium *of an ancient text requires familiarity with the cultural milieu and its literature. For example, one good source is The Ancient Near East, Volume I and Volume II by James Pritchard.

Regarding the deluge, floods were common in the Ancient Near East. And there are a number of flood stories, notably the Babylonian stories, which refer to a flood that happened a very, very long time in the past. There may have been one flood that was greater than the others and is being recalled via tradition in the Babylonian stories as the basis for such stories as the Epic of Gilgamesh. The Gilgamesh epic involving the hero, Ut-napishtim, a resident of Shuripak on the Euphrates, is the longest and best preserved of the Babylonian flood stories.

The idea there there was an actual world-wide flood is a physical impossibility. But then again, a flood covering the known world at the time, far back in history from the time of the stories, may be literary hyperbole, but it would not involve an actual global flood, just one of the known world.

The similarities, as well as the very distinct differences, between the Babylonian *Epic of Gilgamesh *and the biblical Deluge story are very revealing. The similarities are discussed in a well-known book titled, The Epic of Gilgamesh and Old Testament Parallels by Alexander Heidel. The similarities between the Babylonian stories and the O.T. are too numerous to assert an independence.

So, what is the relationship? The Hebrew’s ancestors came from Mesopotamia and would have passed on the flood stories they knew by means of oral tradition.The Hebrews later took this ancient tradition and re-worked it to conform to their own religion. In Gilgamesh, the gods are arbitrary and vent their irrational anger on the human race with acts of nature, such as floods, without distinguishing between good and evil. When the gods decree a deluge, the god Ea secretly reveals the decree to Ut-napishtim, and instructs him to build a boat described as a cube, 10 dozen cubits on a side. In* Genesis*, the ark is rectangular. It is not a ship or a boat. It is a large box.

The Deluge story may be interpreted Judaism’s response to the Gilgamesh epic. In the Deluge account there are not many gods. There is the one true God. The Deluge account in Genesis incorporates the Hebrew notions of divine providence and justice. The disaster occurs because “all flesh was corrupt” (Gn. 6:12). Noah is a hero of righteousness. And a deluge covering the entire world expresses the idea that God’s justice extends to the farthest regions of the world. There is no escaping God’s justice.

When addressing the *genus litterarium *of the biblical Deluge account, we see that it is a theological polemic against the Babylonian flood stories. The Genesis story is now a true account, without it being an historical account. It’s truth involves a religious or theological message about God, his providence and justice.

The story was then worked into the biblical narrative of a religious history, which is not a literal, chronological history as we think of history. The majority of bible scholars do not see any evidence for the Noah story being historical. To emphasize this point, the story is true, yet it is not historical.

The literal sense of the story is the basis for interpreting the account. A true literal reading is one that fully recognizes and appreciates the *genus litterarium , *and how it functions to convey the author’s message. A literal reading in the common usage of “literal”, then, is not truly literal if it takes the story to be an historical account. The interpretation is simply wrong because it does not correctly recognize the genus litterarium.

We cannot arbitrarily apply a method for interpreting one text in the Bible to any other such as the Adam and Eve story, since the Bible contains numerous ancient literary forms and genres that need understood as to how they function.

For studying the Bible, see Dictionary of the Bible by Fr. John L. Mckenzie.
 
Well, yea … but I think God as lawgiver is really acting out of character when He capriciously breaks the laws he created to govern the universe. One just cannot outwit the God of Nature – sin bites back HARD!! Nature offers a very severe payback for man’s greed and sin - putting Nature in a position of bringing about famine and pestilence. The drought conditions in Africa can be directly linked to the greedy policies of the government’s in power.

MY POINT: God already set in motions laws that DO NOT REQUIRE His constant and direct intervention. So, when scientists tell me the “foolishness” to consider a worldwide flood and give substantial reasons to consider – it’s not a lack of faith in God on my part to believe them – it’s rather just the opposite; a demonstration how God BUILD INTO Nature the means to do His will without any overt intervention on His part. To my way of thinking - THAT IS TOTALLY AWESOME!!

MonFrere
You are correct when you say that “sin bites back hard.” This is why Scripture states:

2 Chronicles 7:13-15
**When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people, **14 if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. 15 Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to prayer made in this place.

This is why it does matter what two consenting adults do behind closed doors (or anywhere else). If these acts are sinful, then everyone on earth will suffer for these sins. All flesh was killed, including the animals, when God flooded the earth as punishment for mankind’s sins. God commanded Nature to let loose her fury upon the whole earth in order to purify the earth of mankind’s sins.

Since God made all the natural laws and also put them into place and/or motion, then He can suspend them when He desires. When He does suspend them, we call these unnatural occurrences “miracles.” 🙂 Jesus liked to miraculously heal people. Mark 8:22-25

Matthew 4:24
Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.

His Will will be done in the end regardless of what man does to try to thwart His will. He created mankind in His image and likeness in order to have fellowship with them. After Adam sinned and broke this relationship, He sent His Son to redeem mankind, by giving Him a human nature along with His divine nature so that He could pay the blood price for our transgressions, and by doing so, He thereby reconciled mankind to Himself. Those who cooperate with Him while they are alive on earth will then have the right to everlasting joy after their deaths, but those who do not cooperate with Him while on earth will reap everlasting suffering after death. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Matthew 7:20-24

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

After we are baptized, which redeemed us; if we continue to obey God’s commandments and do the Father’s will (which means that we truly love Him) until our deaths, then we will inherit eternal life and have fellowship with Him forever in heaven.

Noah, his ark, and the flood are all real. Noah had other sons after the flood. This is in the genealogy of this patriarch and this cannot be dismissed.

Genesis 10:1-5
Now this is the genealogy of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And sons were born to them after the flood.
2 The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.
 
There has been much debate about whether this was a localized flood (the whole known world at the time) or actually a global flood.

There is compelling evidence that it was actually a global flood.

allaboutcreation.org/global-flood-faq.htm

Excerpt:
…Oceanographers took core samples of sediments in the Gulf of Mexico that included fossils shells from one-celled plankton called foraminifera and made an interesting discovery. They discovered that at locations in the core samples that represent thousands of years ago, the salinity in the water was suddenly reduced based upon the shells locked-in permanent record of the conditions. This reduction in salinity could only be caused by a huge fresh water deluge.
There is much archaeological evidence confirming the Flood of Noah. There is a tablet in Babylon on which one of the Babylonian kings mentions his enjoyment in reading the writings of those who lived before the Flood. Another Babylonian tablet gives an interesting confirmation. Noah was the tenth generation from Adam according to the Bible, and this Babylonian tablet names the ten kings of Babylon who lived before the Flood. Another tablet names all the kings of Babylon, and after the first ten there are the words: “The Deluge came up. . .”
 
There has been much debate about whether this was a localized flood (the whole known world at the time) or actually a global flood.

There is compelling evidence that it was actually a global flood.

allaboutcreation.org/global-flood-faq.htm

Excerpt:
I followed the link and I did not see any evidence presented for a global flood. For instance, the site says. “This reduction in salinity could only be caused by a huge fresh water deluge.”

“A huge fresh water deluge” does not by itself constitute evidence. How extensive was the deluge? Was it an extensive local deluge. Was dating done on the samples to determine the age? Without answers to any of these and many more questions that need to be asked, there is no evidence in the example cited for a global flood.

Next to the last paragraph says: "There is much archaeological evidence confirming the Flood of Noah. There is a tablet in Babylon on which one of the Babylonian kings mentions his enjoyment in reading the writings of those who lived before the Flood. Another Babylonian tablet gives an interesting confirmation. Noah was the tenth generation from Adam according to the Bible, and this Babylonian tablet names the ten kings of Babylon who lived before the Flood. Another tablet names all the kings of Babylon, and after the first ten there are the words: “The Deluge came up. . .”

Do you know which Babylonian tablet is being referred to? Do you know what it actually says?

What are the names of the ancestors that supposedly put Noah as “the tenth generation from Adam”? From which translation will you count the generations?
 
This is a continuation of my previous post #198. Here I will explain how the covenant God made with Noah works in the account viewed as theological polemic or answer to the Mesopotamian account. In brief recapitulation, the Mesopotamian flood story was brought from Mesopotamia, the Hebrew’s ancestral home, by Abraham. Abraham moved into the Palestine region perhaps in the nineteenth century B.C.

The Hebrews re-worked the ancient flood story, which was folk lore without much historical basis. The Noah story depicts Noah building an “ark” in the shape of a giant box, 450’ long, 75’ wide, and 45’ high. These dimensions are estimated from the “cubit”, which was the measure of the elbow to the fingertip, approximately one and half feet.

This box is usually translated as an “ark”. In the Hebrew it is called the “tebah”. This is an important symbolic reference. Tebah is only used elsewhere in the Bible in Exodus 2:3, 5. In Exodus it is used to refer to the basket, which was also daubed with pitch, in which the infant Moses escaped from the Egyptians. Hence, the “ark” was a symbol of God’s protection. (See A Path Though Genesis by Bruce Vawter.)

In contrast to the Mesopotamian accounts in which the gods decree a deluge out of irrational anger, the Hebrew tradition speaks of one God who decrees a flood. In Gilgamesh, as I have already noted, the god Ea secretly reveals the decree of the gods to Ut-napishtim. In the biblical account God reveals His plan to Noah.

In the Mesopotamian account, there is a sacrifice and a quarrel amongst the gods. The Hebrews replace this part of the story with their own story of a covenant of God with Noah.

The covenant is a guarantee that the course of nature will remain stable. No similar catastrophe will occur again. That is, the whole human race will not be indiscriminately destroyed. This may be the Hebrew response to the Canaanite fertility myth in which the victorious combat of the creative deity with the monster of chaos is annually repeated. (Fr. John L. Mckenzie)

The Hebrew confidence in the stability of nature is securely grounded on the promises of their creative God. The season will recur in an orderly fashion and so there is no need to resort to cultic myths and rituals.

I will note here the Hebrews were forever being seduced into the fertility cults of the neighboring peoples. The Noah story is a clear message to the Hebrews that there is no reason for them to resort to the fertility cults with its temple prostitutes and so on. So, there are without excuse for their defections from God’s covenant with them.

The rainbow is the appropriate sign to be used as a sign of the stability of nature, since often after a storm, when everything returns to normal, a rainbow appears.

The covenant story reflects the Hebrew understanding of God’s mercy. God’s mercy is needed because the heart of man is inclined toward evil from his youth.

The Hebrew Deluge story is an outstanding example of how the Hebrews rework the folklore and tales of other peoples and use them for their own purposes. The Noah story, unlike Mesopotamian deluge stories, is one that teaches a true theology.

I guess the Hebrews could brag that their Deluge story was better than any others.
 
Hi, itinerant1 -

Yes, you have very well presented a thesis which tries to remove both God and the global deluge from Genesis. Only, it doesn’t work. You see, Genesis is not about remaking of one myth nor another. Genesis is about God’s personal relationships with Adam up to Noah and with the post-deluge Patriarchs.

Genesis is about God’s personal relations with humankind. His love, His prophets and all His creatures. How some people and tribes go astray and some follow Him. The consequences to the people and nations which go astray and the consequences to the individuals and nation that follows Him. Other myths are records of others who went astray.

Did it ever occur to you, that God called Abram and his family and servants, slaves and livestock out of Ur, to save and preserve them from false gods and a faulty creation account?
What makes me wonder are the Catholics who stray from the Holy Bible’s and the CCC’s presentation of what happened. The truth? Jesus Christ is, to paraphrase, ‘the truth, the way, the life and the resurrection’. That’s the truth. Anything that contradicts that is not true, imho.

So, here we are disagreed. But I think it only fair for me to express what I understand as God’s side of the story. We are free to agree to disagree.
 
Hi, itinerant1 -

Yes, you have very well presented a thesis which tries to remove both God and the global deluge from Genesis. Only, it doesn’t work. You see, Genesis is not about remaking of one myth nor another. Genesis is about God’s personal relationships with Adam up to Noah and with the post-deluge Patriarchs.

Genesis is about God’s personal relations with humankind. His love, His prophets and all His creatures. How some people and tribes go astray and some follow Him. The consequences to the people and nations which go astray and the consequences to the individuals and nation that follows Him. Other myths are records of others who went astray.

Did it ever occur to you, that God called Abram and his family and servants, slaves and livestock out of Ur, to save and preserve them from false gods and a faulty creation account?
What makes me wonder are the Catholics who stray from the Holy Bible’s and the CCC’s presentation of what happened. The truth? Jesus Christ is, to paraphrase, ‘the truth, the way, the life and the resurrection’. That’s the truth. Anything that contradicts that is not true, imho.

So, here we are disagreed. But I think it only fair for me to express what I understand as God’s side of the story. We are free to agree to disagree.
I’m not sure what compels you to profoundly misrepresent the interpretation I presented. Your response is nothing more than a straw-man fallacy. And since you claim to be speaking for God, I never thought God’s side of the story would be based on a logical fallacy.

My interpretation is in the general trend of exegesis among the majority of reputable Catholic Bible scholars and the kind of interpretation accepted by the Catholic Biblical Commission.

It’s very revealing that you claim the interpretation strays from the Bible and also imply that it also contradicts the CCC. Yet you cannot present any facts or evidence to support your personal, private interpretation of Genesis. All you have done is skew what I said.

So, until you can make an informed and rational response your post remains totally without merit.
 
The late Fr. Stanley L. Jaki was a theologian, physicist, historian of science, philosopher, and member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences.

In his book Bible and Science, published by Christendom Press, Jaki explains why the Noah story is not historical literature. First, he explains the insurmountable problems with claiming that there was a global flood. Next, he explains how the ark, as described, would be incapable of accommodating every type of creature (p. 155-156). Such matters as these are inescapable clues or evidence that the sacred writer did not intend the Flood story as an historical account.

Jaki continues to say,
“One should there settle with a fairly localized flood limited to the Mesopotamian basin, the memory of which survived in Sumerian and Babylonian lore (the Gilgamesh and Athrasis Epics), as well as among Iranians and Hindus, a consensus that must not be taken lightly. (Yet, curiously missing is a clear tradition of a deluge in ancient Egyptian lore.) Physically, the biblical Flood implies the enhancement of natural forces for a purpose which puts Noah’s story in a class apart from other Flood legends. The narrator of Noah’s story stresses God’s mercy together with the assurance that God’s plan of salvation would prevail, physical and moral catastrophes notwithstanding.

“This spiritual side to the story is also intimated by the symbolism of the dimensions of the ark given in close multiples (or fractions) of 60, the Babylonian base of counting. Such an ark successfully rides out the Flood, whose devastating power is symbolized by its duration of forty days. As to the rainbow, it is not stated that it had not been seen prior to the Flood. Rather, the rainbow, which in other cultures often was taken, because of its resemblance to a huge bow, for a sign of divine punishment, is now presented as a token of the permanence of God’s mercy (p.156-157).”

From what I have seen, the insistence on interpreting the biblical Flood story as an historical account is primarily characteristic of Protestant fundamentalism. Fundamentalism makes erroneous assumptions about how Divine inspiration of the sacred writers works. On the other hand, the Catholic Church has a much deeper understanding of inspiration and revelation in regard to the Bible.

The kind of interpretation favored by the poster “donsnow”, et al, is closer to the mindset of Protestant fundamentalism than it is to modern Catholic Biblical exegesis…
 
The late Fr. Stanley L. Jaki was a theologian, physicist, historian of science, philosopher, and member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences.

In his book Bible and Science, published by Christendom Press,
Itinerant,

I look for this book at Christendom press and it’s not listed in their science collections. Amazon doesn’t sell the book (it does list for $10.00) but the have used copies for sale - the least expensive being close $45.00!! I’d really like to do some reading on how some of Church’s best minds view these issues.

Don’t know if you’ve read Credo for Today by (then) Cardinal Ratzinger. It’s based on several of his lectures but he goes over the statements of the creed and explains them based on how they can be understood in light of current science. It makes for very interesting reading.

BTW - there was a book listed at Christendom Press called Miracles and Physics that may cover some of the same type controversies.

Any help on obtaining reading material on this topic (without refinancing my home) would be appreciated.

MonFrere
 
Itinerant,

I look for this book at Christendom press and it’s not listed in their science collections. Amazon doesn’t sell the book (it does list for $10.00) but the have used copies for sale - the least expensive being close $45.00!! I’d really like to do some reading on how some of Church’s best minds view these issues.

Don’t know if you’ve read Credo for Today by (then) Cardinal Ratzinger. It’s based on several of his lectures but he goes over the statements of the creed and explains them based on how they can be understood in light of current science. It makes for very interesting reading.

BTW - there was a book listed at Christendom Press called Miracles and Physics that may cover some of the same type controversies.

Any help on obtaining reading material on this topic (without refinancing my home) would be appreciated.

MonFrere
I’m back. I’ll put together a list and post it within the hour. The list may be worth refinancing your home. Wisdom is priceless. LOL
 
Itinerant,

I look for this book at Christendom press and it’s not listed in their science collections. Amazon doesn’t sell the book (it does list for $10.00) but the have used copies for sale - the least expensive being close $45.00!! I’d really like to do some reading on how some of Church’s best minds view these issues.

Don’t know if you’ve read Credo for Today by (then) Cardinal Ratzinger. It’s based on several of his lectures but he goes over the statements of the creed and explains them based on how they can be understood in light of current science. It makes for very interesting reading.

BTW - there was a book listed at Christendom Press called Miracles and Physics that may cover some of the same type controversies.

Any help on obtaining reading material on this topic (without refinancing my home) would be appreciated.

MonFrere
It seems that my interpretation of the Flood was not understood too well by some people. That’s understandable, since its probably a very different way of looking at the story. One important point I want to mention is that even though the Flood story is not necessarily historical, there was still a genuine historical covenant between God and the Hebrews, which we still must refer to as the covenant with Noah. It’s just the way we understand that covenant is a little different now. It doesn’t change the reality of the covenant, which as I say, is as real and historical as it gets.

I haven’t read Credo for Today. I just finished a book by Ratzinger called “n the Beginning: A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall. (ISBN: 9780802841063) The book has very good insights. These are theological reflections. He does not treat much of evolution or problems in Biblical interpretation in this particular book as he does elsewhere, but anything he writes is like gold.

Jaki’s Miracles and Physics is probably not what you are looking for at this time. He discusses miracles through the ages, but just a little from the Bible, if I remember correctly, which are the miracle of Creation and maybe Joshua and the miracle of the sun standing still.

I did a little Windows shopping and came up with a budget reading list.

I did not find any good prices yet on the Bible and Science. Tooo bad. I’ll look a little more.

Genesis I Through the Ages, by Stanley L. Jaki, 317 pages, is out of print. I got my copy about a month ago for $3.00, now the prices are starting at $25.00 through Amazon resellers. However, Real View Books sells it new for $19.00. I don’t know what their S&H charge is, though. Real View Books has other great titles by Jaki available, but I didn’t see any other ones that deal specifically with the Old Testament.

Dictionary of the Bible by Fr. John L. Mckenzie, $16.32 at Amazon. A very useful resource.

The Two-Edged Sword: An Interpretation of the Old Testament by Fr. John L. McKenzie.
$34.00 new at Amazon but plenty of used copies available through Amazon resellers starting at $2.00.

A Path through Genesis by Bruce Vawter. This has been a very popular book with priests and lay folks. It’s an excellent introductory level book. Amazon resellers have it starting at $5.00.

The Yahwist: The Bible’s First Theologian by Peter Ellis, C.SS.R
Amazon resellers start about about $3.00.

With these prices, it looks like you can probably keep your house and get some books, too.

Let me know anytime, if you have any questions.
 
You are free to believe whatever you desire.

There is archeological evidence of a worldwide flood. Anyone who takes the time to research can find web pages on this topic. They have even found seashells in countries throughout the whole world; on mountaintops, in the plains, and in the deserts.

Some priests say that the flood never happened. So what? We even had a parish priest who said that Adam and Eve never existed. Did I believe him? No. Romans 5 Do I believe the priests who say that Noah never had an ark? No.

A scholar, by definition, is a person who studies, a learned person. However, there are many questionable “experts” in academics these days, especially in these modernistic times.

Noah and the flood: Jesus states details about it.

Matthew 24:37-39
But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Luke 17:26-29
And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

Genealogy of Jesus:

Luke 3:23-38
23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Janna, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathiah, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Semei, the son of Joseph, the son of Judah, 27 the son of Joannas, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmodam, the son of Er, 29 the son of Jose, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonan, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34** the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham**, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Genesis 11:10
This is the genealogy of Shem: Shem was one hundred years old, and begot Arphaxad two years after the flood.

I choose to believe Jesus. He said there was a flood. You are free to choose to believe whatever you desire.
 
You are free to believe whatever you desire.

There is archeological evidence of a worldwide flood. Anyone who takes the time to research can find web pages on this topic. They have even found seashells in countries throughout the whole world; on mountaintops, in the plains, and in the deserts.

A scholar, by definition, is a person who studies, a learned person. However, there are many questionable “experts” in academics these days, especially in these modernistic times.

Noah and the flood: Jesus states details about it.

Matthew 24:37-39
But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Luke 17:26-29
And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

Genealogy of Jesus:

I choose to believe Jesus. He said there was a flood. You are free to choose to believe whatever you desire.
It would interesting if you presented some real facts to support you interpretation. Just because the Bible has subsequent references to the Deluge and Noah is not conclusive proof that the genus litterarium is historical. In fact there are many Biblical references to events and things in other parts of Scripture that are parables, pre-scientific cosmological notions, and so on. When Christ, St. Paul, or various Old Testament writers speak of Noah and the Flood, there are referring to the true religious and moral message of the story. Hence, your fundamentalist interpretation is dry docked…

Almost all scientists realize that seashells on land, including mountain tops are not necessarily a sign of a flood. There are other known causes which you probably don’t know about because you haven’t studied geology. You haven’t shown that you have any awareness of the kinds of geological evidence that are genuine indications of deep flooding. Nor have you researched the issue from reliable sources.

You only pick websites that agree with your opinion. However, there are actually compelling objections to every one of your points. You have not even consulted the Catholic Encyclopedia. The 1913 edition is very conservative and many of its articles do not reflect, of course, later advances in Biblical exegesis or scientific discoveries.

Yet, what does the this older Catholic Encyclopedia say about the idea of a literal, historical universal flood? Let me quote:

" III. UNIVERSALITY OF THE DELUGE.—The Biblical account ascribes some kind of a universality to the Flood. But it may have been geographically universal, or it may have been only anthropologically universal. In other words, the Flood may have covered the whole earth, or it may have destroyed all men, covering only a certain part of the earth. Till about the seventeenth century, it was generally believed that the Deluge had been geographically universal, and this opinion is defended even in our days by some conservative scholars (cf. Kaulen in Kirchenlexikon). But two hundred years of theological and scientific study devoted to the question have thrown so much light on it that we may now defend the following conclusions:

"(I) The geographical universality of the Deluge may be safely abandoned. Neither Sacred Scripture nor universal ecclesiastical tradition, nor again scientific considerations, render it advisable to adhere to the opinion that the Flood covered the whole surface of the earth."

++++++

My gosh! :eek: **“The geographical universality of the Deluge may be safely abandoned.” **Is the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia modernist, also. Here is the link to the page right here on Catholic Answers: Deluge

Will you now say, too, that the Catholic Encyclopedia is wrong, as well, because it does not agree with your fundamentalist interpretations of the Bible? :rolleyes:

Just wait till I hit you with some quotes from Cardinal Ratzinger. I want to see you reply that Ratzinger is free to believe whatever he chooses. Sorry, but I’m saving the very best event for last.
 
I’m not sure what compels you to profoundly misrepresent the interpretation I presented. Your response is nothing more than a straw-man fallacy. And since you claim to be speaking for God, I never thought God’s side of the story would be based on a logical fallacy.

My interpretation is in the general trend of exegesis among the majority of reputable Catholic Bible scholars and the kind of interpretation accepted by the Catholic Biblical Commission.

It’s very revealing that you claim the interpretation strays from the Bible and also imply that it also contradicts the CCC. Yet you cannot present any facts or evidence to support your personal, private interpretation of Genesis. All you have done is skew what I said.

So, until you can make an informed and rational response your post remains totally without merit.
Hi, intinerent -

Oh, my, what a way to start my day.

You are entitled to your opinions about me and my thoughts. I"m entitled to my opinion of logic without love or faith. Your opinions follow the majority of reputable Catholic Scholars is your defense. Nevertheless, the Holy Bible and the CCC present the Deluge as having happened. Maybe you ought to investigate the minority interpretations of Catholic Bible scholars;).

My interpretation of Genesis stems from NT quotes by Jesus Christ. He’s the authority for my interpretation.
I didn’t know I came across as speaking for God. God’s side of the story, imho, is based upon His faithfulness, truthfulness, Majesty, mercy, powers etc. So, you speak for the scholars and I’ll speak about God and His side of the story.

Now, I’d like to agree to disagree. I’m not going to argue this, anymore.
 
I find it hysterical that people get so caught up trying to “prove” Genesis(which are Creation stories, etiological stories, stories of beginnings) and then miss the whole point of the stories. Do you think that the inspired writer worried about the size of the ark or the year of creation? When we get to the Tabernacle we read of every little thing that went on. we don’t read that in the first 20 chapters of genesis.Why? because it isn’t important.The stories where the lesson- the stories are what is important. Genesis is prehistory and prehistory in a multitude of cultures is mythic. Myth -,despite what is commonly thought of in our culture, does not mean lies or untruths.Myths contain the essence of cultural beliefs- relating truths in a non- historical way. A way people of ancient past could understand their world.
Comparing the creation stories in genesis with New Testament is like comparing apples and oranges. Creation stories predate historical times. NT was very much in historical times and that makes a world of difference, you are talking about two vastly different times, cultures and use of language.

As far as the Documentary Hypothesis- there are many disputes on it. some disagree on how many , what kind of sources- but biblical scholars are almost unanimous in agreeing that there were source materials.What the argument primarily about is how much or how little these sources were used-were they as common as some believe?

Moses was a prophet- but a prophet is not a seer. A prophet is someone who speaks for God.When Moses, or Ezekiel or Isaiah say"thus says the Lord" they are speaking with and by God’s authority. Writing about his own death(which he didn’t)would not make him a prophet-but a seer or soothsayer.

Jesus acknowledging Noah-proves nothing. He was a man of His time and place .If He would have started a sermon with"well according to our source, Noah was a mythic character)do you think anyone would really get what He was saying? Or they would have listened to Him at all.?Jesus being a specific time and place had to use the cultural images of
His time that which His audience would be familiar with and relate too.
not at all - all your have written is according to you and not according to God or His teaching Church that teaches that the literal or obvious sense must always be accepted unless reason or necessity dictate otherwise “for as it was in the days of Noah so shall it be at the secong coming”[Jesus Christ]“the ark was built in the days of Noah and only eight souls were saved”[Pope Peter] or how come we are here today - twinc
 
not at all - all your have written is according to you and not according to God or His teaching Church that teaches that the literal or obvious sense must always be accepted unless reason or necessity dictate otherwise “for as it was in the days of Noah so shall it be at the secong coming”[Jesus Christ]“the ark was built in the days of Noah and only eight souls were saved”[Pope Peter] or how come we are here today - twinc

III. The Holy Spirit, Interpreter of Scripture

109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75

110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76
111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77

The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78

112 Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture”. Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God’s plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79

The phrase “heart of Christ” can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80

113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By “analogy of faith” we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

The senses of Scripture

115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. the profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.
  1. the allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
  2. the moral sense. the events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.85
  3. the anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86
118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:

The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87

119 "It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88
 
The first and greatest care of Leo XIII was to set forth the teaching on the truth of the Sacred Books and to defend it from attack. , speaking of things of the physical order “went by what sensibly appeared” as the Angelic Doctor says,[5] speaking either “in figurative language, or in terms which were comHence with grave words did he proclaim that there is no error whatsoever if the sacred writermonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even among the most eminent men of science.” For “the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately - the words are St. Augustine’s - [6] the Holy Spirit, Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things - that is the essential nature of the things of the universe - things in no way profitable to salvation”; which principle “will apply to cognate sciences, and especially to history,”[7] that is, by refuting, “in a somewhat similar way the fallacies of the adversaries and defending the historical truth of Sacred Scripture from their attacks.”[8] Nor is the sacred writer to be taxed with error, if “copyists have made mistakes in the text of the Bible,” or, “if the real meaning of a passage remains ambiguous.”
 
  1. There is no one who cannot easily perceive that the conditions of biblical studies and their subsidiary sciences have greatly changed within the last fifty years. For, apart from anything else, when Our Predecessor published the Encyclical Letter Providentissimus Deus, hardly a single place in Palestine had begun to be explored by means of relevant excavations. Now, however, this kind of investigation is much more frequent and, since more precise methods and technical skill have been developed in the course of actual experience, it gives us information at once more abundant and more accurate. How much light has been derived from these explorations for the more correct and fuller understanding of the Sacred Books all experts know, as well as all those who devote themselves to these studies. The value of these excavations is enhanced by the discovery from time to time of written documents, which help much towards the knowledge of the languages, letters, events, customs, and forms of worship of most ancient times. And of no less importance is papyri which have contributed so much to the knowledge of the discovery and investigation, so frequent in our times, of letters and institutions, both public and private, especially of the time of Our Savior.
  2. Moreover ancient codices of the Sacred Books have been found and edited with discerning thoroughness; the exegesis of the Fathers of the Church has been more widely and thoroughly examined; in fine the manner of speaking, relating and writing in use among the ancients is made clear by innumerable examples. All these advantages which, not without a special design of Divine Providence, our age has acquired, are as it were an invitation and inducement to interpreters of the Sacred Literature to make diligent use of this light, so abundantly given, to penetrate more deeply, explain more clearly and expound more lucidly the Divine Oracles. If, with the greatest satisfaction of mind, We perceive that these same interpreters have resolutely answered and still continue to answer this call, this is certainly not the last or least of the fruits of the Encyclical Letter Providentissimus Deus, by which Our Predecessor Leo XIII, foreseeing as it were this new development of biblical studies, summoned Catholic exegetes to labor and wisely defined the direction and the method to be followed in that labor.
  3. We also, by this Encyclical Letter, desire to insure that the work may not only proceed without interruption, but may also daily become more perfect and fruitful; and to that end We are specially intent on pointing out to all what yet remains to be done, with what spirit the Catholic exegete should undertake, at the present day, so great and noble a work, and to give new incentive and fresh courage to the laborers who toil so strenuously in the vineyard of the Lord.
 
. What is the literal sense of a passage is not always as obvious in the speeches and writings of the ancient authors of the East, as it is in the works of our own time. For what they wished to express is not to be determined by the rules of grammar and philology alone, nor solely by the context; the interpreter must, as it were, go back wholly in spirit to those remote centuries of the East and with the aid of history, archaeology, ethnology, and other sciences, accurately determine what modes of writing, so to speak, the authors of that ancient period would be likely to use, and in fact did use.
  1. For the ancient peoples of the East, in order to express their ideas, did not always employ those forms or kinds of speech which we use today; but rather those used by the men of their times and countries. What those exactly were the commentator cannot determine as it were in advance, but only after a careful examination of the ancient literature of the East. The investigation, carried out, on this point, during the past forty or fifty years with greater care and diligence than ever before, has more clearly shown what forms of expression were used in those far off times, whether in poetic description or in the formulation of laws and rules of life or in recording the facts and events of history. The same inquiry has also shown the special preeminence of the people of Israel among all the other ancient nations of the East in their mode of compiling history, both by reason of its antiquity and by reasons of the faithful record of the events; qualities which may well be attributed to the gift of divine inspiration and to the peculiar religious purpose of biblical history.
  2. Nevertheless no one, who has a correct idea of biblical inspiration, will be surprised to find, even in the Sacred Writers, as in other ancient authors, certain fixed ways of expounding and narrating, certain definite idioms, especially of a kind peculiar to the Semitic tongues, so-called approximations, and certain hyperbolical modes of expression, nay, at times, even paradoxical, which even help to impress the ideas more deeply on the mind. For of the modes of expression which, among ancient peoples, and especially those of the East, human language used to express its thought, none is excluded from the Sacred Books, provided the way of speaking adopted in no wise contradicts the holiness and truth of God, as, with his customary wisdom, the Angelic Doctor already observed in these words: “In Scripture divine things are presented to us in the manner which is in common use amongst men.”[30] For as the substantial Word of God became like to men in all things, “except sin,”[31] so the words of God, expressed in human language, are made like to human speech in every respect, except error. In this consists that “condescension” of the God of providence, which St. John Chrysostom extolled with the highest praise and repeatedly declared to be found in the Sacred Books.[32]
 
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