Does the Catholic Church recognize the story of Noah and the flood as being literally true?

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It was originally intended to be historical.

However if it is not historical, does that mean the rainbow really is not a promise from God?

To me I see it 3 options -

A) The flood was only localized (thus giving the possibiltiy of all types of animals fitting)

B) The flood happened world wide, and there was a miracale allowing all animals to fit. (like a portal inside the arc).

C) It is a story, and the rainbow is not a promise of God.
 
Cutting edge geological research from 100 years ago?
Edwest is giving a skewed picture of the Catholic Encyclopedia in regard to the Deluge account. I had already made several posts in this thread clarifying what the majority of Bible scholars have to say about the Deluge, and also what the Catholic Encyclopedias have to say.

Here is an excerpt from the 1913 CE edition article Deluge :

"The Biblical account ascribes some kind of a universality to the Flood. But it may have been geographically universal, or it may have been only anthropologically universal. In other words, the Flood may have covered the whole earth, or it may have destroyed all men, covering only a certain part of the earth. Till about the seventeenth century, it was generally believed that the Deluge had been geographically universal, and this opinion is defended even in our days by some conservative scholars (cf. Kaulen in Kirchenlexikon). But two hundred years of theological and scientific study devoted to the question have thrown so much light on it that we may now defend the following conclusions:

The geographical universality of the Deluge may be safely abandoned

"Neither Sacred Scripture nor universal ecclesiastical tradition, nor again scientific considerations, render it advisable to adhere to the opinion that the Flood covered the whole surface of the earth.

"(a) The words of the original text, rendered “earth” in our version, signify “land” as well as “earth”; in fact, “land” appears to have been their primary meaning, and this meaning fits in admirably with Genesis 4, 5 and 10; why not adhere to this meaning also in Genesis 6:9, or the Flood story. Why not read, the waters “filled all on the face of the land”, “all flesh was destroyed that moved in the land”, “all things wherein there is the breath of life in the land died”, “all the high mountains under the whole heaven (corresponding to the land) were covered”? The primary meaning of the inspired text urges therefore a universality of the flood covering the whole land or region in which Noah lived, but not the whole earth.

(b) As to the cogency of the proof from tradition for the geographical universality of the Flood, it must be remembered that very few of the Fathers touched upon this question ex professo. Among those who do so there are some who restrict the Deluge to certain parts of the earth’s surface without incurring the blame of offending against tradition.”

The 1963 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia, from which I previously posted excerpts: Here it is again.
**

**
Historical and Scientific Issues**

"The composite character of the Biblical account and the variations in details within the Mesopotamian accounts suggests that no one of these is an account of a particular historical flood. Floods were common in ancient Mesopotamia, and occasionally devastated whole cities; but no scientific, geological, or historical evidence even suggests that at one time a single flood totally wiped out all of civilization in ancient Mesopotamia, let alone the whole world. That marine fossils are commonly found in the mountainous areas throughout the world is the result of geological uplifts. Periodically, news accounts appear about wood that is claimed to be from the ark, recovered on Mt. Ararat in Turkey. Carbon 14 tests consistently show that the wood is from the current era, about 1600 years old. The wood is thought to come from the ruins of an ancient monastery that served the pilgrims’ hostel.

"The various flood accounts from Mesopotamia suggests that experiences with devastating local floods helped human imagination to construct accounts of an even worse flood in the distant past that did almost destroy humanity. The accounts reflect the helplessness that humans experience in the face of raging flood waters capable of devastating entire cities. The accounts similarly reflect belief that such natural phenomena were expressions of divine power and will, brought on out of spite or irritation or capriciousness. Because some humans survived each local flood, in each account some humans survive, sometimes due to chance, and other times to the intervention of a sympathetic divine power.

“The ancient authors of the Genesis flood wove their Israelite traditions around one such devastating flood to create a compelling story about their God and His relationship with humanity. The scientific or historical accuracy of the biblical narrative, measured by modern standards, is irrelevant to the accounts’ abiding theological significance.”
 
Chiastic Structure of the Flood Story

A violence in creation (6:9-12)
B God resolves to destroy (6:13-22)
C God commands Noah to enter (7:1-10)
D flood begins (7:11-16)
E flood waters rise (7:17-24)
X God remembers Noah (8:1)
E’ flood waters recede (8:2-5)
D’ the earth dries (8:6-14)
C’ God commands Noah to leave (8:15-19)
B’ God resolves to preserve order (8:20-22)
A’ covenant with creation (9:1-17)
 
It was originally intended to be historical.

However if it is not historical, does that mean the rainbow really is not a promise from God?

To me I see it 3 options -

A) The flood was only localized (thus giving the possibiltiy of all types of animals fitting)

B) The flood happened world wide, and there was a miracale allowing all animals to fit. (like a portal inside the arc).

C) It is a story, and the rainbow is not a promise of God.
Your three options are not true options.

Consider the genus litterium of the Deluge account to be a theological polemic against the Babylonian flood stories, especially the Epic of Gilgamesh. The details of the Deluge account find their meaning when viewed in the context of being responses to specific characteristics of pagan culture in the Ancient Near East. This includes the symbol of the rainbow, and such things as the symbolic significance of the numerical dimensions of the ark.

This polemic, when put down in its final written form, was worked into the religious narrative of Genesis.
 
It was originally intended to be historical.
However if it is not historical, does that mean the rainbow really is not a promise from God?
The flood is one of those marvelous historical events that has many elements which also serve as symbols.
To me I see it 3 options -
A) The flood was only localized (thus giving the possibility of all types of animals fitting)
In my opinion, this is the best option.

When one looks at the time period and how people viewed the world, the flood would be considered as local in the sense that it covered the known area. Scripture writers were not aware of places like California. There are a number of posts above that talk about this.
B) The flood happened worldwide, and there was a miracle allowing all animals to fit. (like a portal inside the arc).
Because I look at the flood as a way used by God to bring us to Him, I don’t think it would be necessary to flood California and other unknown places at that period of time.
C) It is a story, and the rainbow is not a promise of God.
God, being Spirit, often used the material things of our world to remind us of His love and mercy. On our part, we can read good messages into old writings. For example. Where I live there is a break in the trees which at certain times of the year is a perfect opening for sunshine during gentle rain. This means rainbows for me, including an ocassional double rainbow. My imagination is unlimited regarding symbolic meanings.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
has a number of paragraphs which talk about symbolism regarding the flood. Do two searches – flood and Noah on this Catechism link
Be sure to scroll down to find the search box for the Catechism.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for knowledge is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
 
The story of Noah is not a story. The same tired words are repeated regarding pagan sources while people attempt to divide the Bible into two parts: What God actually did and what is just a story to illustrate some truth. Jesus showed what God can do. When He spoke in parables, the Bible identifies the parables as such. Science, which is supposedly silent about God and the supernatural, is presented here as a theological interpretive, which it clearly is not. Also, the sense of urgency regarding the constant, repetitive threads here indicates - clearly - that the goal is not the truth but an ideology.

The current enemies list:

Genesis - None of it can be real.

Biblical literalism - God is a being standing off to the side while ‘natural’ forces do their work without further guidance and without intelligence.

Fundamentalism - This is connected to the idea that the Word of God is not the word of God, just the writings of primitive people with limited knowledge.

Creationism - God didn’t create anything. Purely mechanical forces, unguided by any intelligence, did.

Intelligent Design - Had to go to court to prevent competition with anti-theistic ideas currently being taught in public schools.

And then there are those who post here with the ‘fairy tale’ explanation. Why? Evangelism for anti-theism, which they are convinced, is somehow superior. This is idolatry. Idolatry that involves placing the mind of man above the mind of God – a real, living person.

Peace,
Ed
 
Granny,

You seem to be saying that you actually think what I’ve been writing about has credibility in your mind. Is that correct? If not, where do you disagree?

MonFrere
I learned a lot from your discussion of natural ramifications and agree with its credibility. I took a different route to the same conclusion. This is a “both /and” agreement.

I reread your well written post 950. It does have credibility in my mind. You have written what I often think. Thank you. However, I would like to add a few personal points.

It is rare that I comment on miracles simply because I don’t know enough about how they should be treated. The exception to this comes from my study of extraordinary events connected with the Catholic Eucharist. The event at Lanciano, Italy, is definitely a miracle in my estimation.

Personally, I tend to stay away from the issue of infallibility regarding Scripture. I prefer the Catechism’s paragraphs 109-119 as a guide.

Your mention of theologians seeking understanding brings up another personal preference of mine. In major issues of Catholic faith, I rely on the *Catechism of the Catholic Church *as having the final say.

Because I am studying the evolutionary theory, I find that the appearance of conflict is based on a lot of assumptions which may or may not fit the situation. This presents a challenge, not a roadblock. The answers do exist and they will be brought forth in due time.

Divine Revelation Trumps!

Blessings,
granny

The quest for knowledge is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
 
Today’s meanings of these words can be traced way back. However, there are times when the modern meaning of these words cannot be applied to ancient cultures.

What I am apparently failing to do is to have people either read the Hebrew conception of the world found in footnotes or look at the drawing that is between pages 4 and 5 in some of the older bibles. If one is to follow CCC paragraph 116 point about good interpretation, then one needs to look at the Hebrew world in the way that the Hebrews did. See post 955.

There are a number of people who hold that there were not two sole parents of the human species. Adam & Eve, Mr. and Mrs. John Doe, or whatever names are given, did not exist. To them the story of Adam & Eve is figurative just like Noah’s flood.

The Catholic Church sees a huge difference between the reality of Adam & Eve and a possible flood in California or any place else outside of the ancient Hebrew world.

This is why I continue to defend the real existence of Adam and Eve. When it comes to a choice between the world and the Spirit, Divine Revelation trumps.

Blessings,
granny
Thank you, Granny, for the courtesy of your reply,

In at least one of my Holy Bibles, here, I have an illustration of the Hebrew view of the world in its day, on four pillars. I know it’s a different view.

I know that there are Catholics who think Noah’s flood is figurative, and they’re entitled to their opinion. It only bothers me, when they act like I’m not entitled to my different opinion. It’s Ok, that we see things differently. It’s not Ok for either one to go into bashing or name calling the other one, over a difference in opinion.

That’s where I’m really at.

Don
 
Hi All,

Whether we take the story to be literally true or not, the big picture that you all apparently accept as Catholics is that God once got so angry about the wickedness of some people that he regretted creating man all together (does God really have regrets?) decided to kill everyone including children, babies, and the unborn by drowning them. He also decided to drown every animal on earth (does this sound like divine justice to you?). He later changed his mind about one righteous man in particular and his family (does it make any sense at all for an omniscient God to change his mind?) and decided to save him and a few animals from the flood. Afterward, God promised to never again kill everyone and all the living things on earth in a flood. (Sweet!)

Do I have that right? Is this story consistent with your idea of what God’s justice is like? Not only do I not take this story as literally true, I don’t even want to think of it as saying anything true about the character of God. Any God worth believing in wouldn’t drown innocent babies and animals because he got angry at wicked people, would he???

Best,
Leela
 
Hi All,…Do I have that right? Is this story consistent with your idea of what God’s justice is like? Not only do I not take this story as literally true, I don’t even want to think of it as saying anything true about the character of God. Any God worth believing in wouldn’t drown innocent babies and animals because he got angry at wicked people, would he???Best,Leela
Leela, I share your dismay at the character of God that comes across through a literal interpretation of the flood story. E.g. drowning all the babies makes God into a big-time abortionist.

But instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, what about drawing from the story the beautiful idea that God preserved life, that creation was deemed worthy of redemption? God could simply have made an end to the whole mess; instead, God decided to redeem creation with all of its faults. Would that work for you?

StAnastasia
 
Is this story consistent with your idea of what God’s justice is like? Not only do I not take this story as literally true, I don’t even want to think of it as saying anything true about the character of God.

Best,
Leela
If I may, since we are talking about ideas of what God is like, offer the comment that ideas coming from human knowledge don’t necessarily apply to a transcendent spiritual being known as God.

What is helpful when dealing with various passages in Scripture is look at them from God’s desire to have all human beings be with Him in eternal love and peace. The questions Why are we here? and "How do we get there? take priority.

The Catholic Church teaches that “God created man in His image and established him in His friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God.” (CCC 396)

Taking apart these two sentences belong in another thread. Their relevance to Noah is that when we read the account of the flood, our thoughts should be. Ooops. Someone, like myself, was not freely submitting to God. Someone freely chose a substitute. That means we are not in God’s friendship. How is God going to demonstrate what went wrong? How is God going to tell us that to be in friendship with Him, we need to be on the same boat as He is?

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred.
 
Hi All,

Whether we take the story to be literally true or not, the big picture that you all apparently accept as Catholics is that God once got so angry about the wickedness of some people that he regretted creating man all together (does God really have regrets?) decided to kill everyone including children, babies, and the unborn by drowning them. He also decided to drown every animal on earth (does this sound like divine justice to you?). He later changed his mind about one righteous man in particular and his family (does it make any sense at all for an omniscient God to change his mind?) and decided to save him and a few animals from the flood. Afterward, God promised to never again kill everyone and all the living things on earth in a flood. (Sweet!)

Do I have that right? Is this story consistent with your idea of what God’s justice is like? Not only do I not take this story as literally true, I don’t even want to think of it as saying anything true about the character of God. Any God worth believing in wouldn’t drown innocent babies and animals because he got angry at wicked people, would he???

Best,
Leela
This is the same tired, old rhetoric: How can you love a god that kills puppies and babies?

In the Bible, it is very clear: The wages of sin is death. God is just. He created the world and everything in it. He warned the people, who apparently decided He didn’t matter. He warns us all today. He is the Living God, not your imaginary friend.

Before raising Lazarus from the dead, Jesus wept.

Peace,
Ed
 
What you are asking me to do seems to be saying that I must have a blind faith. You are saying that I can only “know” through revelation. If you are saying that then I think that is absurd…
Thanks MonFrere; What I am merely suggesting is to have faith even when you don’t find a rational answer. Don’t expect there will always be one available to you at the time you are seeking it. But you have assumed by what I wrote I was denying you the right to question and attempt to understand, I was not. Reread what I wrote; *“**It is no less rational to accept the regeneration of nature or of any living entity including vegetation after the receding of the flood waters merely by the will of God then it is to accept the healing of the blind man or the dead returned to life, all of which are equally consistent with each other as all are forms of life created by God and created from nothing.” ***

Scripture does not account for many things that we accept by the word of God. Do you not understand how any living organism could be returned to its intended state of existence, regardless whether man or beast or vegetation and so on? Of course it is an interesting question how it may have transpired but just because we are not capable of rationalizing a particular issue does not mean it could not have occurred.
Example; Jesus rose from the dead and was approached by Mary outside the tomb. I believe you accept that yet how did He rise from the dead if He was dead. If we accept it was our Heavenly Father who raised Him from the dead, what limitations do you believe God is bound by? Do you know how the stone was moved that He could exit the tomb or where He obtained the garments He clothed Himself with outside the tomb? He certainly would have stood out and attracted attention without them, which would have created a threat against Him with His enemies, and He would have been trapped in the tomb if the stone had not been moved. These are after affects that would have been generated from the specific occurrence of His resurrection but no one has a rational explanation to these questions. I realize it to be simplistic but God’s bringing back a person who had been dead for several days is only complimentary to the saving or regenerating abilities He possesses and there can be no limit for one more so than the other when it comes to sustainable growth after the flood.
Of course we are of a rational faith, but failure to recognize a rational answer in cases such as this does not justify a resolve there is none. It is no sin or violation of God or Church to question or fail to comprehend. On the other hand, let us remember much comes over time as He determines suitable.

John CH16; 12*** I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things so ever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. 14 He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. 15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you. ***

You speak of clues to help one better understand events and quoting you; “SEEKING implies testing and questioning and probing.”

I have many, many years experience as a licensed professional investigator and researcher so trust me when I say I question everything and it was such work that lead me through my own investigation of Christianity along the lineage of scripture that lead me directly to the CC. But in all honesty, I can assure you we as a race in general have advanced in intelligence to such a degree we have grown arrogantly stupid. Our society prides itself on advancements in technology of all forms, whether it is in the fields of mobility or transportation, conveniences, medicine, sources of energy or agriculture, yet there is not a single scientific advancement made by man that does not have an immediate or prolonged adverse affect on man or the environment. Why do you think that is?

continued next post…
 
continued from previous post…

I’ll tell you what I found… Simply because man was not satisfied with what God provided for us to proceed through life, it was just not convenient or comfortable enough and there had to be solutions so man proceeded to experiment and design and manufacture to a point where society as we call it no longer has a connection with nature or life among what God created for us but rather suffers from the after affects of what WE have made of our lives. Do you think God is going to provide us or guide us to the answers as long as we insist we can learn them without Him independently and through our own experimentation? Not all of us, but most of us today live according to what our senses will support… that includes our “intelligence”.

I can assure you some people rely so much on rational conclusions they miss the big picture in the process. But you are right when you speak of clues to help one better understand events and “SEEKING implies testing and questioning and probing”, there is nothing wrong with seeking as long as we avoid our own pride and prejudices even when it comes down to acknowledging we may never find the answer or that a rational explanation is not available but that its OK.

I do not suggest anything other than never stop seeking… My relationship with Our Lord only came to grow when I turned back to Him and began researching everything I could with a growing hunger to know Him like nothing I have ever experienced in my life. It was the Holy Spirit that guided my work but not until I recognized my humanity and turned myself over to Him. Like someone once said, “the more I learn, the more I realize what I don’t know.”
 
This is the same tired, old rhetoric: How can you love a god that kills puppies and babies?

In the Bible, it is very clear: The wages of sin is death. God is just. He created the world and everything in it. He warned the people, who apparently decided He didn’t matter. He warns us all today. He is the Living God, not your imaginary friend.

Before raising Lazarus from the dead, Jesus wept.
You’re missing the point, Ed. The question is not how could a just God allow puppies to die. The question is how a just God could punish infants and puppies by drowning them in response to the sins of others?

In other words, would you find it just for God to punish you for my sins? Apparently the God of the Noah story thinks this practice was actually unjust since he promised never to do it again. If it was in fact just in the past, why the new convenant and rainbow and all that?

Best,
Leela
 
Leela, I share your dismay at the character of God that comes across through a literal interpretation of the flood story. E.g. drowning all the babies makes God into a big-time abortionist.

But instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, what about drawing from the story the beautiful idea that God preserved life, that creation was deemed worthy of redemption? God could simply have made an end to the whole mess; instead, God decided to redeem creation with all of its faults. Would that work for you?
Not being a Christian I don’t have any need to spin the story in that sort of way, but I can see how that sort of spinning is completely necessassary for anyone who wants to take the complete Bible seriously as a guide to relating to God. Having no stake I can just take what articulates love and justice well and leave what doesn’t ring true.

Your solution doesn’t really work for me in this case. It reminds me of the sacrifice of Isaac. God tells Araham to kill his son and then we are supposed to be impressed by the compassion of God for telling Abraham that he doesn’t actually have to do it. It was just a test! What a swell God!

It’s like me claiming that I did two good deeds today: I decided to kill someone. But then I changed my mind! And I stole some money, but later I gave it back. What a great day for me!

Would that be a good story for explaining people how virtuous I am? Likewise, I don’t think the Noah story has anything useful to teach us about love and justice today.

Best,
Leela
 
Not being a Christian I don’t have any need to spin the story in that sort of way, but I can see how that sort of spinning is completely necessassary for anyone who wants to take the complete Bible seriously as a guide to relating to God. Having no stake I can just take what articulates love and justice well and leave what doesn’t ring true.

Your solution doesn’t really work for me in this case. It reminds me of the sacrifice of Isaac. God tells Araham to kill his son and then we are supposed to be impressed by the compassion of God for telling Abraham that he doesn’t actually have to do it. It was just a test! What a swell God!

It’s like me claiming that I did two good deeds today: I decided to kill someone. But then I changed my mind! And I stole some money, but later I gave it back. What a great day for me!

Would that be a good story for explaining people how virtuous I am? Likewise, I don’t think the Noah story has anything useful to teach us about love and justice today.

Best,
Leela
You are missing the point, particularly with the Abraham/Isaac story. That particular account is a very explicit type of the Crucifixion. Even though I see your point, as I used to be a whiny agnostic myself at one point in my life, you need to get past the surface and see what is underneath.
 
You’re missing the point, Ed. The question is not how could a just God allow puppies to die. The question is how a just God could punish infants and puppies by drowning them in response to the sins of others?

Best,
Leela
Death for everyone, Noah and ourselves, came about because Adam freely chose to leave God’s friendship and thus his material body became a mortal one. Drowning is one cause of death. Is every drowning a punishment? Is it a punishment to be brought into the eternal presence of God? Is it a punishment to arrive in heaven sooner than later? Is it really possible to evaluate God’s many spiritual decisions with our limited human knowledge?

When one looks at things like floods, one needs to recognize that there are two sides to consider, that of the Supreme Creator and that of the willful created. When reading Noah we find consequences following choices. Instead of focusing on who’s guilty and who’s not, we need to focus on our own lives. Do we need a flood to remind us to check out own relationship with God?

The plight of Noah is a timeless reminder that it takes effort to walk in friendship with our Creator.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is sacred.
 
Hi granny,
Death for everyone, Noah and ourselves, came about because Adam freely chose to leave God’s friendship and thus his material body became a mortal one. Drowning is one cause of death. Is every drowning a punishment?
No, but this story specifically says that God got angry because people were being bad, so he decided to kill everyone and everything. If that isn’t a punishment for bad behavior, I don’t know what is.

(And I’m glad you didn’t blame it on Eve like people usually do!)
Is it a punishment to be brought into the eternal presence of God? Is it a punishment to arrive in heaven sooner than later?
No, but is drowning the way a just and omnipotent God chooses to deal with the situation? The babies didn’t have to drown to arrive in heaven, did they?
Is it really possible to evaluate God’s many spiritual decisions with our limited human knowledge?
This is similar to what you said previously:
“If I may, since we are talking about ideas of what God is like, offer the comment that ideas coming from human knowledge don’t necessarily apply to a transcendent spiritual being known as God.”

The problem is that if we simply can’t hope to have any intellectual understanding of God’s actions and motivations then there is no point to the Bible or any sermons or theology. We should always just throw up our hands and say “there is simply no way to comprehend God.” No one’s ideas about God are then any better or worse then anyone else’s if God is so inscrutible.
When one looks at things like floods, one needs to recognize that there are two sides to consider, that of the Supreme Creator and that of the willful created.
As I said to Ed, this isn’t “the problem evil” scenario (does God passively allow bad things happen), this is God actively choosing to do something violent and unjust out of anger and then promising never to do it again.
When reading Noah we find consequences following choices. Instead focusing on who’s guilty and who’s not, we need to focus on our own lives. Do we need a flood to remind us to check out own relationship with God?

The plight of Noah is a timeless reminder that it takes effort to walk in friendship with our Creator.
For me this interpretation is quite a stretch. But if the story functions that way for you in your life then it sounds like it is worth your periodic reflection.

Best,
Leela
 
Not being a Christian I don’t have any need to spin the story in that sort of way, but I can see how that sort of spinning is completely necessassary for anyone who wants to take the complete Bible seriously as a guide to relating to God. Having no stake I can just take what articulates love and justice well and leave what doesn’t ring true.

Your solution doesn’t really work for me in this case. It reminds me of the sacrifice of Isaac. God tells Araham to kill his son and then we are supposed to be impressed by the compassion of God for telling Abraham that he doesn’t actually have to do it. It was just a test! What a swell God!

It’s like me claiming that I did two good deeds today: I decided to kill someone. But then I changed my mind! And I stole some money, but later I gave it back. What a great day for me!

Would that be a good story for explaining people how virtuous I am? Likewise, I don’t think the Noah story has anything useful to teach us about love and justice today.

Best,
Leela
Of course you have a stake in this. If not, why do you post here? I noticed your blogspot link. What kind of hope do you offer?

Peace,
Ed
 
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