Does the Catholic concept of God devolve a lot of power away from him?

[Bohm_Bawerk]

One tenet in Christian theology is that God is omnipotent - that is, God is all-powerful. One would think that this would mean that the concept of God’s power is homogeneous in across virtually every Christian denomination, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

In Catholicism, God’s power seems to be by and large devolved. Saints are invoked regularly. Angels are said to watch over the faithful. Mary is said to be a dispenser of graces; she is co-mediatrix. It seems as if God doesn’t do very much but simply employs other people to do it. He’s like a CEO, but on a bigger scale. Some Catholics have gone on to say that if you don’t invoke the saints, Mary or your Guardian Angel, then you aren’t really Catholic. Of course, this is not Church teaching as far as I know, but I’m just stating that to put things into context about the “cultural pressure” of engaging in these devotions.

Contrast this with the view held in mainstream Protestantism. You do not resort to saints; they are dead. You do not call to angels; they don’t or can’t do very much. And you definitely don’t go to Mary. “Who is she?”…you don’t hear her mentioned even once in services. God does everything. If you need something, you go to God.

Would you say that the Catholic concept of God devolves a lot of power away from him? He doesn’t do much; he gets others to do it.

 

[Acapiteadcalcem]

No. First of all, God’s omnipotence is not communicable, as St Thomas teaches: “…divine omnipotence which cannot be communicated to any creature.” (II-II.178.1). This is because omnipotence is not a quality that can be shared, but identical with God’s essence. Mary, as mediatrix, and the saints, and the angels, do not ‘share’ God’s omnipotence; they participate in it. “Furthermore, Again, every act inhering in another is terminated by that in which it inheres, since what is in another is in it according to the mode of the receiver.” (Summa Contra Gentiles, 1.43.5).

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

One tenet in Christian theology is that God is omnipotent - that is, God is all-powerful. One would think that this would mean that the concept of God’s power is homogeneous in across virtually every Christian denomination, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

In Catholicism, God’s power seems to be by and large devolved. Saints are invoked regularly. Angels are said to watch over the faithful. Mary is said to be a dispenser of graces; she is co-mediatrix. It seems as if God doesn’t do very much but simply employs other people to do it. He’s like a CEO, but on a bigger scale. Some Catholics have gone on to say that if you don’t invoke the saints, Mary or your Guardian Angel, then you aren’t really Catholic. Of course, this is not Church teaching as far as I know, but I’m just stating that to put things into context about the “cultural pressure” of engaging in these devotions.

Contrast this with the view held in mainstream Protestantism. You do not resort to saints; they are dead. You do not call to angels; they don’t or can’t do very much. And you definitely don’t go to Mary. “Who is she?”…you don’t hear her mentioned even once in services. God does everything. If you need something, you go to God.

Would you say that the Catholic concept of God devolves a lot of power away from him? He doesn’t do much; he gets others to do it.

Nothing you’ve listed takes away any power from God. Christ delegated authority to His Church. Everything is through His power.

 

[Warrior1979]

Would you say that the Catholic concept of God devolves a lot of power away from him? He doesn’t do much; he gets others to do it.

There are certain elements that I believe remove power, notably the Catholic concept of infallibility. This concept in practice means certain things are irreformable, which has the result of not allowing God to do things without causing what appears to us as a conflict in Catholic dogma.

As a simple example being discussed as on this forum, consider the Israeli slaughter of the Canaanites. Could God order such a thing to occur again, which would include the slaughter of babies. The answer is obviously yes, because it is God we are dealing with. OTOH, the Church absolutely prohibits the harming of children in any way shape or form, thus if it occurred, and clear and blatant conflict in morals would occur.

 

[tonyrey]

For anyone who believes in free will God shares His power with us to such an extent that we able to reject His love and frustrate His will for all eternity. You could hardly have greater devolution than that!

Of course free will is impossible to explain unless it has a supernatural origin because it infringes the law of conservation of energy…

 

[jbarbaretta]

There are certain elements that I believe remove power, notably the Catholic concept of infallibility. This concept in practice means certain things are irreformable, which has the result of not allowing God to do things without causing what appears to us as a conflict in Catholic dogma.

As a simple example being discussed as on this forum, consider the Israeli slaughter of the Canaanites. Could God order such a thing to occur again, which would include the slaughter of babies. The answer is obviously yes, because it is God we are dealing with. OTOH, the Church absolutely prohibits the harming of children in any way shape or form, thus if it occurred, and clear and blatant conflict in morals would occur.

The concept of infallibility does not inhibit God from accomplishing His will. It merely follows logically from the biblical teaching that the Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit and the Church being the “pillar and foundation of truth” in 1 Tim 3:15. In actuality it is limiting on the Church – in that the Church cannot, by divine gift, teach (on faith and morals,) that which is not the truth. Therefore it puts no limits on God whatsoever.

 

[starsmurf]

For anyone who believes in free will God shares His power with us to such an extent that we able to reject His love and frustrate His will for all eternity. You could hardly have greater devolution than that!

Of course free will is impossible to explain unless it has a supernatural origin because it infringes the law of conservation of energy…

As a Catholic I believe in free will but what on earth does it have to do with the consevation of energy? As an astrophysicist, I can tell you that statement doesn’t make sense.

 

[runningdude]

I disagree with your assessment. Catholics, if anything, hold God to be far more powerful than Protestants believe. Protestant put God in a box, and limit how they interact with Him and visa-versa.

Catholics believe that God allows the angels and saints to hear petitions and prayers, so that the angels and saints may also pray for these intentions. Most protestants believe that there is a solid oak door between heaven and earth, and that only God can listen through the wood. Which takes more power, animating the entire heavenly host, allowing billions of prayers simultaneously, or allowing only a relative few prayers trickling through at a time?

 

[Godfollower]

There are certain elements that I believe remove power, notably the Catholic concept of infallibility. This concept in practice means certain things are irreformable, which has the result of not allowing God to do things without causing what appears to us as a conflict in Catholic dogma.

As a simple example being discussed as on this forum, consider the Israeli slaughter of the Canaanites. Could God order such a thing to occur again, which would include the slaughter of babies. The answer is obviously yes, because it is God we are dealing with. OTOH, the Church absolutely prohibits the harming of children in any way shape or form, thus if it occurred, and clear and blatant conflict in morals would occur.

I’m afraid this is a gross misunderstanding of the doctrine of papal infallibility. That charism does one and only one thing: the Holy Spirit prevents the Church (either through the ordinary Magisterirum or through the Pope himself) from proclaiming a definitive teaching erroneously in the area of faith and morals.

So, for example, let’s suppose that the Pope were to issue the following proclamation:

Accordingly, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith, and for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own:

We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the use of widgetranimuses when brilliging in the slithey tothes guarantees the user of the widgetranimus entry into that most exalted Heaven upon his or her death, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.

(Obviously, I just made that up).

We would then know by Sacred Tradition and from Holy Scripture that the teaching was free of error. In other words, it is God’s will. We would therefore know that it would be a really good idea to use widgetranimuses when brilliging in the slithey tothes.

That doesn’t limit God; it is in fact the exercise of God’s power by God through man. In this farcical example, God is announcing something He wants us to do.

More importantly, the charism of papal infallibility is a negative one; it prevents error, rather than forcing correctness. So, if HH Benedict XVI were to try to make the announcement I invented up above, just because he felt like playing a horrible prank on the world, the Holy Spirit would prevent him from doing it. So, if he did make such an announcement, it would be clear that the Holy Spirit had allowed him to do so.

What is often forgotten is that becoming Pope doesn’t mean you get to make up the rules of morality; it is in fact quite the opposite. Pope Benedict XVI no longer gets to engage in speculative theology, which he could do as Cardinal Ratzinger if he wished; as Pope, he is limited to a very specific role of discerning and proclaiming God’s Word throughout the world. So he can’t limit God by speaking ex cathedra; God would prevent him from even beginning to do that.

God is limited, that’s true; basic Catholic theology teaches us, for example, that God cannot lie and cannot contradict Himself. But all those limits are inherent in the nature of God. None of them comes from humans at all.

I hope this helps.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

There are certain elements that I believe remove power, notably the Catholic concept of infallibility. This concept in practice means certain things are irreformable, which has the result of not allowing God to do things without causing what appears to us as a conflict in Catholic dogma.

As a simple example being discussed as on this forum, consider the Israeli slaughter of the Canaanites. Could God order such a thing to occur again, which would include the slaughter of babies. The answer is obviously yes, because it is God we are dealing with. OTOH, the Church absolutely prohibits the harming of children in any way shape or form, thus if it occurred, and clear and blatant conflict in morals would occur.

I disagree.

Infallibility works through God’s promises. To believe He could not reveal truth in His Church, for all generations, takes away, or doubts, God’s power to keep His promise.

Hypothetically is where one must go to try and show conflict between the Church, that is over 2000 years old, and God?

 

[JamestheOlder]

One tenet in Christian theology is that God is omnipotent - that is, God is all-powerful. One would think that this would mean that the concept of God’s power is homogeneous in across virtually every Christian denomination, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

-------------snipped---------------

Would you say that the Catholic concept of God devolves a lot of power away from him? He doesn’t do much; he gets others to do it.

An analogy, Bohm:

My Mother did not work outside the home. My Father did; he paid all the bills because he had all the money.

Did I ask my Father for money to go to the movies when I was in grade school? No.

I asked my Mother first, because she could “intercede for me” (I was Catholic then, too).

Dad still had all the money.

 

[Joe_5859]

Personally, I think God’s use of the angels and saints is more indicative of his power, not less so.

I know how limited I am as a human being. The fact that God can actually raise us up to do some of the things that the saints have done is very good proof of his power for me.

 

[tonyrey]

As a Catholic I believe in free will but what on earth does it have to do with the consevation of energy? As an astrophysicist, I can tell you that statement doesn’t make sense.

Free will is impossible to explain unless it has a supernatural origin because it infringes the law of conservation of energy… Does that make sense? Does any natural object have free will?

 

[Bearontherun]

I don’t see the emphasis that Catholicism places on Mary, the saints, etc. as detracting from the power of God. We see from the Bible that God chooses to work with and through His creations. He spoke to the people through Moses for example. Also, there are many instances where we are described as being actual members of the Body of Christ. He is the Vine and we are the branches…the Bible thoroughly stresses the idea that we are connected and that we have a role to play in doing His will and fulfilling His plans. Doesn’t the Bible also say that in Heaven we will rule with Christ? I think that Catholicism recognizes the way that God uses His power through all of His creations. Protestantism, IMHO sometimes downplays the understanding of mystical interconnectedness that we celebrate as Catholics.

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t see the emphasis that Catholicism places on Mary, the saints, etc. as detracting from the power of God. We see from the Bible that God chooses to work with and through His creations. He spoke to the people through Moses for example. Also, there are many instances where we are described as being actual members of the Body of Christ. He is the Vine and we are the branches…the Bible thoroughly stresses the idea that we are connected and that we have a role to play in doing His will and fulfilling His plans. Doesn’t the Bible also say that in Heaven we will rule with Christ? I think that Catholicism recognizes the way that God uses His power through all of His creations. Protestantism, IMHO sometimes downplays the understanding of mystical interconnectedness that we celebrate as Catholics.

Precisely! Otherwise what would the Communion of Saints mean?

 

[jbarbaretta]

Would you say that the Catholic concept of God devolves a lot of power away from him? He doesn’t do much; he gets others to do it.

The Catholic concept of God deals very intimately with Him as a person, literally as our Father. As such, we have the ability to talk to Him, share our ups and downs, ask for help and thank Him for favors granted or even just thank Him for a nice day.

We can also ask Him to help those we care about, our brothers and sisters in the faith. We also ask others to ask Him to assist us, much like you might as your brother to speak to your father for you about something that you were particularly concerned about or may ask a co-worker to speak to the boss about something that is of common interest, especially if that person is closer to the boss than you are. As Catholics we are less concerned about whether the person we are asking for help is currently living on earth or is in Heaven. Therefore asking some one closer to the boss, like an angel or a saint is just a way on indicating to God how concerned we are about the request.

All the saints can do for us is ask God to intervene on our behalf. Therefore, everything comes from God. It is true that God does want our involvement. He could just as easily created a universe that didn’t have the problems, issues and temptations that we deal with on a regular basis, but He chose not to. Instead He created a universe that depends on our intervention for each other, both through physically caring for each other and through prayer, to make it more heaven-like; or through our lack of care, through apathy and greed to make it more hell-like. That is our choice and we make it hundreds of times each day.

From a Catholic perspective, that involvement doesn’t suddenly stop when we get to heaven. Once in heaven we will no longer be dealing with the temptations of life, but there are people we care about that are still struggling their way through life. We will continue to ask God to help them. They may ask us to pray for something for them. As with any family, everyone helps each other and we all benefit from that help.

In the end, whether or not a prayer is answered is completely up to the will of God, an angel or a saint cannot go contrary to that will.

If you remember, I said that we are asking those that have a closer relationship with God to intervene on our behalf. As it relates to Mary, what human could be closer to Jesus than His mom.

 

[Warrior1979]

Hypothetically is where one must go to try and show conflict between the Church, that is over 2000 years old, and God?

Assume for a moment that morals are unchanging. How does one explain the slaughter of Canaanite babies in the context of Canon Law?

Note that there is nothing hypothetical about the situation. The Canaanite situation occurred, and Cannon Law exists. The discussion is therefore done in the context of reality.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Assume for a moment that morals are unchanging. How does one explain the slaughter of Canaanite babies in the context of Canon Law?

Note that there is nothing hypothetical about the situation. The Canaanite situation occurred, and Cannon Law exists. The discussion is therefore done in the context of reality.

Did Canon Law exist when the slaughter occurred?

 

[Warrior1979]

Did Canon Law exist when the slaughter occurred?

Why is that relevant?

I thought morals were unchanging. Is it your belief that morals change over time?

If they do change over time, there is a blatant problem with with using an interpretation of infallibility that implies irreformable that includes something that can by definition can change, as your are implying with morals.

 

[Godfollower]

Assume for a moment that morals are unchanging. How does one explain the slaughter of Canaanite babies in the context of Canon Law?

Note that there is nothing hypothetical about the situation. The Canaanite situation occurred, and Cannon Law exists. The discussion is therefore done in the context of reality.

Why is that relevant?

I thought morals were unchanging. Is it your belief that morals change over time?

If they do change over time, there is a blatant problem with with using an interpretation of infallibility that implies irreformable that includes something that can by definition can change, as your are implying with morals.

As an initial matter, canon law is a code for the Church. It is not really intended as an explication of right and wrong. You can see the moral law reflected in canon law, but it isn’t definitive.

That being said, your argument would make more sense if you simply compared the Canaanite issue with the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments prohibit murder; doesn’t that address your point more squarely?

The answer to your dilemma, of course, is that God made us, and He can do with us what He wants to. The Bible actually explains this issue:

Hear, O Israel: Thou shalt go over the Jordan this day; to possess nations very great, and stronger than thyself, cities great, and walled up to the sky, A People great and tall, the sons of the Enacims, whom thou hast seen, and heard of, against whom no man is able to stand. Thou shalt know therefore this day that the Lord thy God himself will pass over before thee, a devouring and consuming fire, to destroy and extirpate and bring them to nothing before thy face quickly, as he hath spoken to thee. Say not in thy heart, when the Lord thy God shall have destroyed them in thy sight: For my justice hath the Lord brought me in to possess this land, whereas these nations are destroyed for their wickedness. For it is not for thy justices, and the uprightness of thy heart that thou shalt go in to possess their lands: but because they have done wickedly, they are destroyed at thy coming in: and that the Lord might accomplish his word, which he promised by oath to thy fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Deuteronomy 9:1-5.

God – the supreme judge – determined that it was time to end the lives of certain people. He has that right. We do not. So Catholic teaching remains the same: we cannot commit murder. For one human being to kill another (in the absence of some moral justification, such as self-defense) is immoral.

But God is not a human being. He is supernatural and has the right to do what He wishes with His creation.