Does the church call sex 'bad?'

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holyrood said:
Thank you.

I think my frustration with this is that I feel in hifs choice of words, he’s condemning the conclusion of the Church as stemming from dark ulterior motives, rather than recognizing that it’s about what’s healthy spiritually. Maybe it’s really in his tone, or maybe it’s that I, of course, bring to the discussion years of hearing people condemn our bishops and priests as having some bizarre desire to ‘control’ people by ‘controlling’ their sex lives.

Anyway, he did concede that the Church does not make a blanket condemnation of all sex as being bad. He seems to feel that a great deal of positive good has come out of his lifestyle of lots of free sex with lots of women. He feels it’s a way of connecting emotionally and feels that sex is very much on a level with any other recreational activity except that it can be a profound emotional and even spiritual experience with the right person.
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That’s how HE feels about it. Maybe he should ask all the women he’s dumped how THEY feel about it. He might get the surprise of his life!
 
He feels it’s a way of connecting emotionally and feels that sex is very much on a level with any other recreational activity except that it can be a profound emotional and even spiritual experience with the right person.
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Well, he’s somewhat correct. But… every fornication diminishes that “profound emotional and even spiritual experience,” because you are in the habit of fornicating.

It’s like eating while reading, watching TV, and/or playing a computer game. It just goes down your throat. You don’t fully experience the taste. If you do enough of that, the habit will form.

Then, you go to a famous gourmet restaurant. You sit in front of some exquisitely delicious food, and swallow it as if it was a frozen dinner. Perhaps you taste the first bite or two, but the rest…

Unfortunately, I speak from experience - both kinds. 😦
 
Della said:
That’s how HE feels about it. Maybe he should ask all the women he’s dumped how THEY feel about it. He might get the surprise of his life!
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Della, that’s a good question. I suspect he believes they feel much as he does, that it’s good memories. I know of one of them who was quite hurt in the end (and because it was an online relationship, they didn’t even sleep together) and I think he’s trying to justify it as he’s sorry she got hurt, but she knew everything upfront and knew it wasn’t going anywhere.

To be clear, I agree with everything said here. It just bothered me that he keeps saying the Church says sex is bad, because of all I also bring to the discussion–for instance, years of ‘the Church calls sex bad’ really being a judgment call on the cardinals, bishops, and Pope, and the claim that their motive is really to ‘control’ people and ‘control people’s sex lives.’ (like they have nothing better to do 🤷)

So…he did conceded that the Church doesn’t actually call all sex ‘bad.’ But he’s right that it calls sex outside of marriage bad. And our disagreement (his and mine, not mine with anyone on this board,), then, is more about why it says that and whether it’s correct.

And at this point, I expect he has no intention of, nor interest in, changing his mind. His attitude is that, once realize that sex isn’t bad, everything changes, in effect stating objectively that there’s nothing bad about any of it. When I suggested that premarital sex *does *harm people in many ways, he glossed over it, saying that those people were messed up and would have been hurt by things without having gone so far as sex. (We were talking emotional harm; we didn’t even get to STDs and unplanned pregnancies and abortion, but I think he would have dismissed those in much the same way, that those who are careful and wise never have problems with those things.)

As a result, I don’t expect he and I will be talking about this much. I figure if it comes up, I’ll say what I think and let God take over from there. The funny thing is, he is quite respectful of my faith and admires what he calls chastity and purity. I personally believe God is calling him. I hope everyone will pray for him and of course for this whole society that largely shares these views.
 
holyrood said:
Della, that’s a good question. I suspect he believes they feel much as he does, that it’s good memories. I know of one of them who was quite hurt in the end (and because it was an online relationship, they didn’t even sleep together) and I think he’s trying to justify it as he’s sorry she got hurt, but she knew everything upfront and knew it wasn’t going anywhere.

To be clear, I agree with everything said here. It just bothered me that he keeps saying the Church says sex is bad, because of all I also bring to the discussion–for instance, years of ‘the Church calls sex bad’ really being a judgment call on the cardinals, bishops, and Pope, and the claim that their motive is really to ‘control’ people and ‘control people’s sex lives.’ (like they have nothing better to do 🤷)

So…he did conceded that the Church doesn’t actually call all sex ‘bad.’ But he’s right that it calls sex outside of marriage bad. And our disagreement (his and mine, not mine with anyone on this board,), then, is more about why it says that and whether it’s correct.

And at this point, I expect he has no intention of, nor interest in, changing his mind. His attitude is that, once realize that sex isn’t bad, everything changes, in effect stating objectively that there’s nothing bad about any of it. When I suggested that premarital sex *does *harm people in many ways, he glossed over it, saying that those people were messed up and would have been hurt by things without having gone so far as sex. (We were talking emotional harm; we didn’t even get to STDs and unplanned pregnancies and abortion, but I think he would have dismissed those in much the same way, that those who are careful and wise never have problems with those things.)

As a result, I don’t expect he and I will be talking about this much. I figure if it comes up, I’ll say what I think and let God take over from there. The funny thing is, he is quite respectful of my faith and admires what he calls chastity and purity. I personally believe God is calling him. I hope everyone will pray for him and of course for this whole society that largely shares these views.
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There was a recent film about an aging lothario who had the same attitude until he actually went back to visit the women he’d dumped. It opened his eyes to the fact that he’d be selfish and uncaring–that lust ruled his life not love. If your friend actually talked to those gals instead of assuming they’re fine with it all, I’m sure that would help he see things differently. But, he’s probably not at that place in his life. He has to see it for himself instead of making lame excuses/projecting his guilt onto the Church. Only the Holy Spirit can do that, so let’s indeed pray for him. :crossrc: If God could change and use St. Augustine, who was a libertine before his conversion, he can do the same for your friend. :yup:
 
Della said:
There was a recent film about an aging lothario who had the same attitude until he actually went back to visit the women he’d dumped. It opened his eyes to the fact that he’d be selfish and uncaring–that lust ruled his life not love. If your friend actually talked to those gals instead of assuming they’re fine with it all, I’m sure that would help he see things differently. But, he’s probably not at that place in his life. He has to see it for himself instead of making lame excuses/projecting his guilt onto the Church. Only the Holy Spirit can do that, so let’s indeed pray for him. :crossrc: If God could change and use St. Augustine, who was a libertine before his conversion, he can do the same for your friend. :yup:
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Thank you, Della. What was the name of the film?

This brings me to another question: the way this has all come about in his life is that he’s a swinger in an open marriage. Presumably, most or all of these encounters are with women who feel much the same way about sex, who were at these events and taking part in the whole open marriage lifestyle willingly, looking for the same exact things…
 
His attitude is that, once realize that sex isn’t bad, everything changes, in effect stating objectively that there’s nothing bad about any of it.
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Ah, so to him it’s all black and white. Either it’s all good, or all bad. I hope he grows out of that soon. Perhaps you could present this argument:

Having sex is a good thing, so we can have as much as we want.
Since food is also a good thing, we can eat all we want.
Then why are obese people unhealthy?
 
holyrood said:
Thank you, Della. What was the name of the film?
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Just looked it up, it starred Jack Nicholson in “Something’s Got to Give.”
This brings me to another question: the way this has all come about in his life is that he’s a swinger in an open marriage. Presumably, most or all of these encounters are with women who feel much the same way about sex, who were at these events and taking part in the whole open marriage lifestyle willingly, looking for the same exact things…
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And none of them have any regrets? If your friend is so happy with his life and his choices, why is he asking questions? Shouldn’t he be totally happy and fine and even trying to get others into the same lifestyle? I have to wonder how many of those gals are truly happy, either. People can fool themselves when they have an addiction to anything. Sounds like he has a sexual addiction and is trying to find ways to stay with it instead of facing reality. What do you think?
 
Della said:
Just looked it up, it starred Jack Nicholson in “Something’s Got to Give.”
This brings me to another question: the way this has all come about in his life is that he’s a swinger in an open marriage. Presumably, most or all of these encounters are with women who feel much the same way about sex, who were at these events and taking part in the whole open marriage lifestyle willingly, looking for the same exact things…
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I’ll look into that movie.

I realized I didn’t actually finish that thought about the women. I suspect that many of them, at any given point, would say they were perfectly happy with it all. But I do wonder how their minds and views of it will change years down the road… Maybe some won’t. I’m sure some will. And of course, any given person’s feelings on an issue don’t change objective truth. But in his situation, I do wonder how many would tell him they wish they hadn’t.

My feeling on the matter is similar to yours, that he’s a little too uncomfortable with things to be as fine with it as he says. He jokes about it–but only half-joking–how he doesn’t belong in church or around children or around decent people.

Ruthie, I agree. And as I said, we didn’t quite get as far as STD’s, unplanned pregnancies, and abortions, but I think his answer at this point would be you can guard against all of those if you’re just smart. Obviously, I disagree with him on that point, but I think there’d be no way of convincing him.
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no the church doesn’t call sex bad. the church calls misuse of sex bad
 
Della said:
There’s something in that, actually. A lot of people have puritanical attitudes towards sex that promote the idea that is it “dirty” or wrong. I believe it’s one reason why our sex-soaked society is so obsessed about it–because they’re apostate Protestants/Jansenist Catholics who are trying to flee this notion, but taking it way too far the other way. Of course, human weakness and sin contribute a great deal to this, but if people truly understood the propler place sex should have in our lives and lived by that, most of the porn shops and the internet sites would disappear. It’s really a form of misogyny–the idea that sex is inherently “evil”. For it makes women objects, making it only worse.
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Women can experience lust and sexually objectify men too.
The idea that women are asexual (or at least non-sexual) on the mental level is unfair to both men AND women.
 
Della said:
There’s something in that, actually. A lot of people have puritanical attitudes towards sex that promote the idea that is it “dirty” or wrong. I believe it’s one reason why our sex-soaked society is so obsessed about it–because they’re apostate Protestants/Jansenist Catholics who are trying to flee this notion, but taking it way too far the other way. Of course, human weakness and sin contribute a great deal to this, but if people truly understood the propler place sex should have in our lives and lived by that, most of the porn shops and the internet sites would disappear. It’s really a form of misogyny–the idea that sex is inherently “evil”. For it makes women objects, making it only worse.
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I would say humanity’s greatest and most consistent vice on the social level is our tendency to take everything to unhealthy extremes.
 
edwest2 said:
First of all, who decides when you, or anyone, has sex? The Church? No.

If your friend is feeling guilty or he is mindful of the Church and doesn’t like it what it teaches regarding sex, then he should decide. The Church never forces. If you miss Mass on Sunday, I guarantee a priest will not be pounding on your door Monday asking where you were.

Bad means doing the wrong thing. The secular world sometimes establishes their own idea of what is good or bad. How about two people living together and having sex or just ‘hooking up,’ having sex and that’s it? What’s the bad part? Everybody’s doing it.

No, the Church calls all forms of sex outside of marriage sin and bad for us. Sin can be defined as rejecting what is the greatest good for us right now and accepting a substitute, a counterfeit.

Sex in marriage is not bad.

Fornication: Sex between two people who are not married is a sin.
Adultery: Sex between two people where one or both is married to someone else is sin.
Masturbation: A sexual activity that is sinful, but the Church recognizes that there may, in certain circumstances, be mitigating factors regarding the degree of its sinfulness. But we are still taught it is sinful.

No, the Church does not call sex bad. But it can be sinful if acted out outside of marriage.

Peace,
Ed
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Completely and obviously false.
If the Church never forced anyone to do anything the Papal States could not have existed.
Governments are ALL about the legitimate use (and threat of) force.
 
Vico said:
The Church teaches that any disordered desire or any good sought improperly is sinful. The deadly sins in general are: pride, envy, anger, lust, greed, gluttony, and sloth.

To restate the friend thinks the Church says:
  1. outside of marriage, sex is sin
  2. sin is bad
    Therefore sex is bad.
This is illogical, the logical conclusion is that sex outside of marriage is bad. But even that is not precisely what the Church teaches, because sex within marriage can also be sinful. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:2351 *Lust *is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:
The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146

2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

2400 Adultery, divorce, polygamy, and free union are grave offenses against the dignity of marriage.

Also counted:
2354 *Pornography
*2355 *Prostitution
*2356 *Rape
*2388 *Incest
*​
Of course any of these entertained in thought are also gravely sinful.
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You have a point.
The modern Church doesn’t technically disapprove of all sex.
It just approves of a very very narrow range of sexual activity (so narrow that married couples may not be able to ever actually achieve it).
 
Sex is a beautiful sign of affection, bonding, and procreation given by God. It is the context that is bad - not sex itself.

God creates everything - the sun, the sky, the moon, the grass, the dogs, the cats, the flowers, the mountains, the ocean…basically everything. God also created us male and female - both in his divine beautiful image. God created marriage, and God created sex…

Sex was God’s idea – sex is sacred. Sacred, the translation from the Latin term that means “holy.” If something is sacred, it is something that God has made and something that deserves our upmost respect and honor.

But sex is so much more than a physical union that we learned about in biology class. Sex unites a married man and a married woman and then it also is procreative, or must always be open to life.

So sex is holy - but it’s not “love” that makes it holy. Sex is totally different than sex between animals - it’s a holy act between humans becasue humans are holy - made in the divine image. It’s not just a guy and a girl making love, they are open to making life!!

Because God has given us free will, we are different than animals, we must mirror Christ’s love in others lives, as we are made in the image of God who is all holy. So sex isn’t about what we get, but what we give.

If you just see sex as a means for pleasure, than you missed the point, and have disrespected the beatiful act given by God - you are using it. And using sex boils down to a lot of immoral garbage, like pornography, abuse, etc.

Mark Hard says: “Sex is an amazing gift of God and the Church proudly proclaims how incredible and beautiful sex is in the proper context and relationship of sacramentally-committed love between a husband and wife, both sacred creations of God”
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Completely and obviously false.
If the Church never forced anyone to do anything the Papal States could not have existed.
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This is obviously false. Just how does the Papal States “force” anyone to do anything? With its vast and terrible armies? Considering the number of Catholics who disobey the Church on sexual matters, it just plain ridiculous to say the Papal States are able to control anyone’s actions.
Governments are ALL about the legitimate use (and threat of) force.
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Not quite, but answering this would take us off topic. If you wish to discuss this statement, you’ll have to take it to a different thread/forum. 🙂
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
The modern Church doesn’t technically disapprove of all sex.
It just approves of a very very narrow range of sexual activity (so narrow that married couples may not be able to ever actually achieve it). …And most sex inside marriage.
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Church citations please.
 
Thank you, Della, on both posts. I find it sad to ask a question on Catholic doctrine on a Catholic forum and have someone think that spewing obvious hatred of the Catholic church is somehow an accurate answer. If someone doens’t believe Catholic theology or want to follow it, no problem, but why the hatred?

Just adding: I’ve been raised Catholic my entire life, 13 years of CCD and/or Catholic school, have been going to church pretty much weekly from birth onward, at churches literally all over the country and world, and I have never heard a single word saying sex is anything but a beautiful, holy moment between man and wife.
 
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