Does the Church eventually lose every argument on social issues?

[Rock_Happy]

I was have been listening more and more to historical theologians lately, and one from Yale Divinity made the startling comment the other day, on the topic of gay rights, that the Church has lost every debate on social issues in which it has ever engaged. I found the statement shocking, but then with my limited knowledge of history, I could not come up with a single example in which the Church has not eventually been required to change its moral position.

It is currently trying to hold its ground on contraception, gay rights and abortion. It appears to be losing, and even Catholic countries reject Church doctrine. The list of past issues, in which the Church has eventually changed its own teachings and practices in order to conform to changing societal norms, in areas like slavery, money lending, divorce, etc… is a significant one.

Can you think of a social justice issue in which the Church has prevailed over time?

 

[Gianniugo]

Are we really losing the arguments: or is it really those who live according to the values and mores that do not correspond to the principles and teachings of Christ.

What we need to do is listen to the still, small, voice of God within us before we respond to others: this is the proactive art of Christianity. The loud majority may be out there: but do they know the fullness and scope of truth?

I believe that it is by far the best option to allow the revelations of God to be your voice as you highlight that your faith life is based on a faith that has pure unadulterated trust as its core feature.

Don’t forget that all of us have been made in the Imago Dei, even though we may not always show that to be a verity in our lives. Try to show that you have achieved much as you demonstrate that you have been transformed into the image of Christ.

I say – let others show their bluster; all you need to do is have the presence of God within you: this will be obvious even to our enemies, even if they are much louder in voice.

Would you agree with this as a starting point

 

[Tietjen]

I was have been listening more and more to historical theologians lately, and one from Yale Divinity made the startling comment the other day, on the topic of gay rights, that the Church has lost every debate on social issues in which it has ever engaged. I found the statement shocking, but then with my limited knowledge of history, I could not come up with a single example in which the Church has not eventually been required to change its moral position.

It is currently trying to hold its ground on contraception, gay rights and abortion. It appears to be losing, and even Catholic countries reject Church doctrine. The list of past issues, in which the Church has eventually changed its own teachings and practices in order to conform to changing societal norms, in areas like slavery, money lending, divorce, etc… is a significant one.

Can you think of a social justice issue in which the Church has prevailed over time?

Can you define “prevailed” for the sake of this discussion? If, by prevailed, you mean swayed the masses to permanently stay fixed to a moral obligation or position, then no, the Church hasn’t prevailed, but the game isn’t over yet. However, in saying that, I also have to disagree with your assertion that the Church “changes its moral position.” It has not. Divorce within a valid marriage is and always has been impossible. Abortion, has been, is today, and always will be a grave evil. On the issue of homosexuality, the Church stands firm, as it always has, that it is sinful. So, perhaps in the eyes of society the Church is “losing every argument” but really how valid is that position when society is the one making the judgment call on who wins and looses? In the end, the real Judge will make the call and then I’d be interested in how that Yale theologian refutes the Truth.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Who do you think is responsible for homosexuality being socially unacceptable to begin with?

Think about all of the practices of the pagan cultures that the Church supplanted. Pederasty, gladiator combat, human sacrifice, sati, polygamy… I am sure there are more.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I

Great challenge that you put on me. The list:

1. 
   *]roman slaveery abolished
   *]poligamy in many countries abolished
   *]if the christian princes (Charles Martel) did not win in Poitiers and Vienna (several, an alliance), the USA would be muslim with poligamy. I would not mid having 4 wives, but if I cannot understand 1 woman, how could I understand 4?
   *]forgive your enemies instead of cutting their heads, hands, feed whatsovever did the criminal job.
   *]ascension of women: in old times (and still in muslim countries today), women were considered below zero. Mary was elevated as the mother of God.
   *]Henry VIII have 7/8 wives, many of them lost their heads when he changed wives. CC did not go along
   *]I do not remember any country whose majority was Catholic who had “apartheid”.
   *]the rights of the unborn.
   
   I could be going on and on…
   GBY

 

[Sherry_G]

The Church has NEVER changed position on a moral issue. Secularism can say and do what it wills, but the true teachings of the Church have not changed and will never change. All the advances in our world since Jesus walked the earth have been taught by the Church and are still fully embraced until the end of time. People individually may accept evil and call it good, but the Church of Jesus Christ - the one, holy Catholic and Apostolic church never will. following Christ faithfully for 2,000 years and counting!

 

[Contarini]

I was have been listening more and more to historical theologians lately, and one from Yale Divinity made the startling comment the other day, on the topic of gay rights, that the Church has lost every debate on social issues in which it has ever engaged. I found the statement shocking, but then with my limited knowledge of history, I could not come up with a single example in which the Church has not eventually been required to change its moral position.

It is currently trying to hold its ground on contraception, gay rights and abortion. It appears to be losing, and even Catholic countries reject Church doctrine. The list of past issues, in which the Church has eventually changed its own teachings and practices in order to conform to changing societal norms, in areas like slavery, money lending, divorce, etc… is a significant one.

Can you think of a social justice issue in which the Church has prevailed over time?

I don’t think the Church has changed its position on divorce.

Weakened its position on money lending, sure, but remains critical of capitalism (though many in this country want to forget the fact);

On slavery, I would say that the Church has prevailed, because the historic Catholic position was one of modest disapproval of slavery. Not pressing for abolition, but certainly not upholding slavery as a good. The Church ought, in my opinion, to have been more forthright in its opposition, but the idea that the Church “lost” that battle misinterprets what side the Church was on (even though that’s partly the Church’s fault for not being less ambiguous).

On infanticide and abortion, the Church prevailed for a long time, at least to some degree. Obviously that’s changing with abortion, and unfortunately may change with infanticide. But the widespread acceptance that these things were wrong (even if they were still practiced to some degree) is thanks to the Church.

The Church was the only major organization in the early 20th century opposing eugenics and the attempt to sterilize the poor. Again, that battle turns out not to have been won as thoroughly as one might hope–these things are coming back under a more “humane” face (or maybe never really went away). But it was won in the sense that most people agree that eugenics in its early-20th-century form was abominable and that the Church was right to stand up to it.

The Church was for centuries the main voice opposing the absolutist claims of the nation-state. Granted, as with slavery, there were many compromises and the Church could have been clearer. Today, many people recognize the damage done by the nation-state, though I could still wish that more did (especially more Catholics).

Even the 19th-century Church’s criticisms of liberal democracy become increasingly plausible, to my mind, in the wake of the invasion of Iraq. The imposition of democracy through a violent invasion is a travesty of democracy and shows that democracy does have its demonic side, as the Popes warned long ago.

These last two cases are obviously controversial–but I mention them because secular/liberal folks who make the argument mentioned in the OP typically are wary of nationalism and oppose the invasion of Iraq. My point is that on these issues the Catholic Church has been long ahead of them. Progressive, enlightened people in the 19th century were nationalists and believed democracy would solve everyone’s problems. Now it’s becoming increasingly clear, at least to “left-wing” folks, that these positions have been very destructive. Yet they never think to credit the reactionary Church for holding firm against the absolutization of what turns out, in fact, to be relative.

I don’t think the Church will, in this world, finally “win” any of its battles, and what look like victories often turn out to be Pyrrhic. But the fact is that the Church has opposed many inhumane things which modern people also oppose, but probably would never question if the Church hadn’t done so first. The fact that some of those things (like abortion and, more recently, eugenics) come back–well, that’s the reality of living in this fallen world.

Edwin

 

[AntalKalnoky]

I was have been listening more and more to historical theologians lately, and one from Yale Divinity made the startling comment the other day, on the topic of gay rights, that the Church has lost every debate on social issues in which it has ever engaged. I found the statement shocking, but then with my limited knowledge of history, I could not come up with a single example in which the Church has not eventually been required to change its moral position.

It is currently trying to hold its ground on contraception, gay rights and abortion. It appears to be losing, and even Catholic countries reject Church doctrine. The list of past issues, in which the Church has eventually changed its own teachings and practices in order to conform to changing societal norms, in areas like slavery, money lending, divorce, etc… is a significant one.

Can you think of a social justice issue in which the Church has prevailed over time?

The Catholic Church has never lost on any social Issue, nor changed it’s position. The Church has condemned Slavery since a Papal encyclical in the 1400’s, before the New World was discovered. The Pope worked hard to Ban Slavery in South America in the 1500’s. The Church has Never changed it’s position on Abortion: It was considered Killing since the First Century. Abortion was condemned as killing by All Faiths, until the 1930’s: Anglican Church.

                                                                                                                     Ditto   'Gay  Rights',  which is  a new   misnomer  of Bias For.  Gays  don't have the equipment for sex.  The   Church is Unique in  Not  Condeming Gays, only the  Practise, the  Act.  The Church teaches Love for Every person,  as Christ did.  I know   Gay  'marrieds', it is    not often lifetime,  and the  case I  know Best   had the  2  women fighting each other fior  superiority  of the couple,  within  a few years.                                Your   University  'theologian'     sounds  highly  misinformed,  maybe very  biased  against the  Church he does not know.  

                                                                                                                     Public Opinion  is  often changed by massive propaganda, like  'gay rights',     An Increasing Majority of Americans now Oppose  Abortion,  All  Age Groups,  mostly  Young people.

 

[ANNE_2]

I was have been listening more and more to historical theologians lately, and one from Yale Divinity made the startling comment the other day, on the topic of gay rights, that the Church has lost every debate on social issues in which it has ever engaged. I found the statement shocking, but then with my limited knowledge of history, I could not come up with a single example in which the Church has not eventually been required to change its moral position.
It is currently trying to hold its ground on contraception, gay rights and abortion. It appears to be losing, and even Catholic countries reject Church doctrine. The list of past issues, in which the Church has eventually changed its own teachings and practices in order to conform to changing societal norms, in areas like slavery, money lending, divorce, etc… is a significant one.
Can you think of a social justice issue in which the Church has prevailed over time?

The teachings of the Catholic Church, not individual opinions, is contained in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”.which was published in the USA in March 2000. (It has a dark green cover.)

The CCC contains the Doctine of the Faith regarding all Faith and Morals.
The Church has not changed it’s positions on Faith and Morals in its 2000+ years of existance.
Footnotes in the CCC point to Bible passages.
" The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I have approved…and the publication of which I order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of Catholic Doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the Faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion." - Pope John Paul II

Homosexual acts (which includes gay-marriage), divorce in a valid marriage with re-marriage, abortion, contraception, fornication, adultary, and not attending Mass on Sunday, etc., are all MORTAL sins.
Catholics who remain in the state of Mortal Sin may not receive Holy Communion, although they must attend Mass.

Some (but not all) social justice issues/positions are personal opinions which Catholics are not required to follow. In fact, personal opinions may or may not contain error.

For the accurate teachings of the Church please read the CCC. The CCC is available through Catholic internet catalogues and even Amazon.

When you read the CCC in its entirety, you will probably be smarter and more accurate than those at Yale Divinity regarding the Catholic Faith.
Just because some call themselves “theologians” of any Faith, does not mean they are always correct. Theologians make errors as well.

 

[mlldrl]

I’m unclear of how the OP is using the word lose. Are you trying to say that the Church is ‘losing’ because so many people are embracing sin? Or something else. I must be missing your point.

If a ship is sinking and I tell people to get in a life boat yet they choose to go down with the ship I haven’t ‘lost’ because they failed to heed good advice. I may feel sad that they made the choice they did but in the end it was their choice.

M

 

[GEddie]

As someone else said, the Church has never changed or been forced to alter a moral position as a matter of Church teaching. It is the general society that has stepped back from the Church as they have progressively deconverted.

ICXC NIKA

 

[ANNE_2]

The teachings of the Catholic Church, not individual opinions, is contained in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”.which was published in the USA in March 2000. (It has a dark green cover.)

The CCC contains the Doctine of the Faith regarding all Faith and Morals.
The Church has not changed it’s positions on Faith and Morals in its 2000+ years of existance.
Footnotes in the CCC point to Bible passages.
" The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I have approved…and the publication of which I order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of Catholic Doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the Faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion." - Pope John Paul II

Homosexual acts (which includes gay-marriage), divorce in a valid marriage with re-marriage, abortion, contraception, fornication, adultary, and not attending Mass on Sunday, etc., are all MORTAL sins.
Catholics who remain in the state of Mortal Sin may not receive Holy Communion, although they must attend Mass.

Some (but not all) social justice issues/positions are personal opinions which Catholics are not required to follow. In fact, personal opinions may or may not contain error.

For the accurate teachings of the Church please read the CCC. The CCC is available through Catholic internet catalogues and even Amazon.

When you read the CCC in its entirety, you will probably be smarter and more accurate than those at Yale Divinity regarding the Catholic Faith.
Just because some call themselves “theologians” of any Faith, does not mean they are always correct. Theologians make errors as well.

Original Poster -
After you have read the CCC - I have a question for you.
Why are so many (but not all) Protestant faiths straying so far from the teachings in the Bible? Regarding homosexual acts, fornication, abortion, divorce, etc.

 

[Wesley7]

Not if you debate for the Church.

 

[exnihilo]

To consider this we have to first define what winning a losing mean. This being a fallen world humanity will never live perfectly moral lives. There will always be sin. We dont say the Church has failed to succeed in teaching that murder is wrong simply because murder occurs.

The Church tends to focus on the bigger sins of the day. These are necessarily the more popular ones. Therefore it can easily appear as if the Church is losing the battle because the sins it condemns loudest are the most popular. At the same time the Church can be doing a pretty good job of keeping back other sins.

We also do not know what the world would be like if the Church was not active in it. The tendency of man is to believe that his age is the most moral. We tend to think we’ve successfully put down the worst sins and are just finishing off the last step to perfection. The abolitionists of 150 years ago might be more appalled by the millions of abortions performed in America alone each year. God may be as well. But without the church abortion might be even more widespread.

We cant know what the world would be like without the Church. But, we should know that there is no reason to believe that the world is supposed to improve over time. In fact, it is far more likely that the world will degenerate over time. If that is so then the Church has had tremendous success in arresting that decline.

 

[Rock_Happy]

As someone else said, the Church has never changed or been forced to alter a moral position as a matter of Church teaching. It is the general society that has stepped back from the Church as they have progressively deconverted.

ICXC NIKA

I have heard that said here. But it contradicts easily confirmed historical statements and practices by previous Popes and the Church. Well respected theologians, including Catholic ones take it as a matter of fact that the Church has always practiced moral relativism.

I know it is a hot topic now with Benedict XVI. In my view this is a new and radical position for a Pope.

I have presented evidence for this repeatedly here, and been referred to theologians who attempted unsuccessfully in my opinion to refute my sources. There is no point in beating a dead horse here.

I thank the people who have expressed their opinions here.

 

[St_Francis]

I have heard that said here. But it contradicts easily confirmed historical statements and practices by previous Popes and the Church. Well respected theologians, including Catholic ones take it as a matter of fact that the Church has always practiced moral relativism.

I know it is a hot topic now with Benedict XVI. In my view this is a new and radical position for a Pope.

I have presented evidence for this repeatedly here, and been referred to theologians who attempted unsuccessfully in my opinion to refute my sources. There is no point in beating a dead horse here.

I thank the people who have expressed their opinions here.

You provided examples which others tried to show were not examples of what you were talking about or else how the change you spoke of was not a true change, and you have apparently dismissed those explanations or clarifications without engaging them.

I think you are being unfair in your presentaions.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Well, the Church opposed Communism for one thing, and Pope John Paul II had a significant hand in its demise, as did the Church in Poland generally. Eastern Europe, at least, is no longer under its sway, and some of the holdouts might eventually change.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I was have been listening more and more to historical theologians lately, and one from Yale Divinity made the startling comment the other day, on the topic of gay rights, that the Church has lost every debate on social issues in which it has ever engaged. I found the statement shocking, but then with my limited knowledge of history, I could not come up with a single example in which the Church has not eventually been required to change its moral position.

It is currently trying to hold its ground on contraception, gay rights and abortion. It appears to be losing, and even Catholic countries reject Church doctrine. The list of past issues, in which the Church has eventually changed its own teachings and practices in order to conform to changing societal norms, in areas like slavery, money lending, divorce, etc… is a significant one.

Can you think of a social justice issue in which the Church has prevailed over time?

What is your church, and in what social justice issue has it prevailed over time? Be specific, so we can look it up. Telling us you’re “Christian” doesn’t tell us anything because there are 40,000 or more protestant sects.

So we can really engage in this, perhaps you would also provide us with a link to the doctrines of your church, so we can know what social justice issues you consider important or worthy of discussion. Just asking us to review 2,000 years of history to pick out this event or that out of many of them doesn’t really give us a chance at anwering what it is that you even consider a social justice issue. “Social justice” can mean a lot of things, and is often a subjective term.

One social justice issue in the U.S. in which the Church has made significant progress, though not a complete victory, is the issue of anti-Catholic bigotry. I well remember when Catholics were severely discriminated against by “Christians” where I live. Most of that is gone, but one still runs into it now and then. Goodness, I remember when a gang of “Christians” beat up the priests in a town not far from here and destroyed the trailer they were then living in. My father was a businessman, and the local “Christian” KKK boycotted him. But he was a patient, forgiving and hard-working man, and was good at what he did. Some of the local “Christians” even sneaked phone calls to him to do business with him when they didn’t dare be seen going into his place of business to do it. My father is dead now, but “Christians” are no longer afraid to come to my place of business for fear of being ostracized by their fellows for patronizing a Catholic. At least it’s so rare I can’t tell that any of them are.

Well, a friend of mine, a Catholic lawyer, was rejected in his candidacy for city attorney because the “Christian” aldermen (so they told him) couldn’t hire him because of his religion. I would call that a lack of “social justice” on their part.

But still, it’s a lot better now than it was when I was a kid.

Since I don’t know what your denomination is, though, I really can’t tell whether it still bears anti-Catholic bigotry in its soul or not. As soon as you tell us, I can make my observations about that.

And I can assure you that the Church has opposed anti-Catholic bigotry for an immensely long time. So it can, and does, make progress at times.

But of course, mankind returns to its sins now and then, like a dog returns to its vomit. That’s human nature. How did Jesus put it? That even the just man sins seven times/day? So it’s not a struggle in which ultimate victories take place and stay in place, any more than the human body achieves total victory over all germs. It’s an ongoing battle.

 

[Tietjen]

I have heard that said here. But it contradicts easily confirmed historical statements and practices by previous Popes and the Church. Well respected theologians, including Catholic ones take it as a matter of fact that the Church has always practiced moral relativism.

I know it is a hot topic now with Benedict XVI. In my view this is a new and radical position for a Pope.

I have presented evidence for this repeatedly here, and been referred to theologians who attempted unsuccessfully in my opinion to refute my sources. There is no point in beating a dead horse here.

I thank the people who have expressed their opinions here.

I’m thinking that you had no intention of actually having a discussion. You asked a question in the OP and made a statement asserting that the Church changes its position and dogmas and when corrected by the members of this form, you dismiss their argument as fictional. This only shows how little you actually know or understand about the Catholic Church. The dogma of the Church never changes. But you are free to believe what you wish. I once heard a theologian say that Protestantism rejects Christ’s Church and therefore cannot be considered Christian. If I thought as you did, I would say to myself… “Well, a theologian said it, so it must be true. I can’t let facts get in the way.” LOL Take care. I’ll leave you to your silliness.

 

[Hokomai]

I think the Church position on sexual and reproductive issues (excluding abortion) is unlikely to ever be upheld in civil law again anywhere it has been defeated, and that everywhere it still holds sway it will eventually lose. I think it is still possible that something closer to the Church’s position on abortion will become the norm, probably as a result of improvements in fetal viability. But I do not see its position on early termination ever becoming the norm again, anywhere. On a range of other social issues i think the church has done quite well, with its thinking on weapons of mass destruction, opposition to torture and capital punishment, restorative justice etc doing very well in the public mind at least in the West. I don’t have a lot of confidence that the Church’s thoughtful teaching on calumny and detraction will catch on in the reporting of celebs’ lives, but even we non-believers can hope for Church success in some areas!