Does the church have equal Authority as the Bible?

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EndTimes said:
Not so… The Magisterium is the Teaching Authority of the Church.
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And the Bible is an exercise in the Church’s teaching authority.

There are something like 100 known Gospels, and several times that in surviving epistles.

It was the Church that propounded the canon, in the early councils, selecting from the various choices those which could be certainly be said to be authoritative, and those which it could not confirm (or which were just plain loopy in some cases . . .)
OrbisNonSufficit said:
Oh I see now. Thank you for clarification. I was pretty sure poster meant Catholic Church when he said Church…
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The Church was not yet split between Orthodox and Catholic at the time it propounded the Bible . . . It was the Orthodox and Catholic Church that dis so.
MasterHaster said:
That cannot be correct since Scripture predates the Church.
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???

Only the Old Testament.

The church was present in 33 AD, and it would be decades before the books of the New Testament were written.
 
dochawk said:
And the Bible is an exercise in the Church’s teaching authority.
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The Magisterium IS - The Catholic Church’s Teaching Authority

It is “servant to” Sacred Scriptures -

CCC -

[81] Sacred Scripture is the speech of God
as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."

The Magisterium of the Church

**[85] “The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.” This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

[86] "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

[102] Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:

You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.65

[103] For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord’s Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God’s Word and Christ’s Body.

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”. "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68

II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture . “The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”
 
Whoosh!

[there really isn’t a politer way to put this.]

You are missing the fundamental point that there is no way of telling what is and isn’t scripture without the teaching authority of the Church.

But, hey, it’s just ecumenical councils of the undivided church saying this, so . . .
 
dochawk said:
You are missing the fundamental point that there is no way of telling what is and isn’t scripture without the teaching authority of the Church.
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That is False = The Gospel Itself was and is Solid as a Rock -
before the Bible Canon circa 400AD came to be…

We are allowed to and encouraged to - read JUST the Bible -

Part of The Church IS the Bible - which, is distinct from Magisterium

Yes - we can learn Directly from The Author wrt Sacred Scriptures

Albeit - preferably in a manner such as Lectio Divina

God’s Holy Spirit has and can indeed speak to Individuals .

_+
 
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Again you are completely missing the point.

NOTHING in what I’ve written, or the church teaches, denies a word of the Bible.

But we DO NOT KNOW what is and isn’t God’s Word without the Church’s authority.

As I mentioned, there are about a hundred known Gospels, of which for were selected, and at least several hundred Epistles. The Church determined which can be conclusively be said to be God’s word, and “the Bible” is those writings for which it made this conclusion.

Not a word of this contradicts the authority of the Bible; it’s about what the Bible is.

Yes, Truth is Truth, and the Gospel is God’s Word.

But we can’t tell which pious writings are God’s Word without the Church’s authority.

Labeling identified pieces of God’s Word as “the Bible” is the Church’s teaching, and use of the Deposit of Faith. Suggesting that the individual, rather than the Church, can make this determination is protestantism.
 
dochawk said:
But we DO NOT KNOW what is and isn’t God’s Word without the Church’s authority
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I agree with what you’re saying in the sense that I’m not Sola Scriptura
and in fact have a very decent working knowledge of Magisterium (IMHO)

Pertinent Encyclicals - 16 Docs of Vat II - the CCC, etc…

That said, and since the Church indeed approved the current Bible circa 400 AD,
One can indeed Prayerfully Read and Know what’s in it -
most especially when God Himself is the Guide

=
 
Point: Scripture was used against those who doubted. Jesus in the desert was not believed to be the Son of God - by the devil. Scripture was used against him. Saint Luke wrote the Gospel and Acts so that the unnamed “Theophilus” would no longer doubt, but have certainty of the teachings - correct apostolic teachings - that he had already received (Prologue to Luke).

Those who demand scriptural proof due to doubt have some very interesting company indeed. New Testament Scripture by itself is no argument per se, because it nowhere claims to be the inspired word of God. However, when it backs up; when it accords with the apostolic teaching which came first and which produced the bible, they defend each other. The teaching/interpretive authority (Magisterium) is the third leg of the stool.

Which of the following stands on its own?
  1. Unicycle?
  2. Bicycle?
  3. Tricycle?
God knew this, so He made certain that the Church had three legs to stand on. So called bible alone (ego alone) has not even one leg to stand on, as the ego is fickle in its interpretation.
 
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dochawk said:
… we can’t tell which pious writings are God’s Word without the Church’s authority.
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You forget that authority has to do with power over others. Accepting or rejecting writings in regard to a canon does not mean that the Scriptures were unidentifiable before authoritive decrees.

Scripture is Divine Revelation, not just authoritive writings. Without the Church affirming its canonical status, Scripture is able to speak to any given individual as God’s Word.

When Jesus spoke to people, He didnt rely on any authority. He spoke and said, “My sheep hear My voice!”

The Church is a servant of the Scriptures, and is given faith and power to Confirm faith and morals with authority.
 
Ammi said:
Scripture is Divine Revelation, not just authoritive writings. Without the Church affirming its canonical status, Scripture is able to speak to any given individual as God’s Word.
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Amen and Exactly… A ‘quantum leap’ difference

Jesus was Obedient to Scriptures aka God…

He’d say, "For Scriptures MUST BE fulfilled!"
 
Ammi said:
Scripture is Divine Revelation, not just authoritive writings. Without the Church affirming its canonical status, Scripture is able to speak to any given individual as God’s Word.
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And without the Church affirming its canonical status, “scripture that is speaking”, looks like this after a couple hundred years -

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I think what @dochawk is suggesting is only the church, not scriptures themselves, has the authority to prevent this out of control growth of “scriptures”.

Peace!!!
 
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“…the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ…sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God’s most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others.” (Dei Verbum #10)
 
Even the Scripture agrees, the FOUNDATION of truth is the Church.

1 timothy 3:15

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
 
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