Does the church permit socialism?

[Zerg]

If we look at Portugal 20 years ago, the government came to a problem with religion and socialism. Abortion was legalized in 2007.

What is your stance?

 

[LittleFlower378]

Reading St.John Paul II, he says socialism leads to communism.

Here is what the Popes have said about socialism:
tfp.org/what-the-popes-have-to-say-about-socialism/

Socialism as Bernie Sanders projects it is very dangerous and is what America is going through today. A false sense of love and equality for things that are immoral such as same sex marriage and abortion. Sanders platform tries to spark trouble and and get people organized and fired up over political correctness. He fires up trouble using racism and gender ideology in his Socialist Democratic Platform. Sanders believes that there should be no difference between a man and a woman which is highly dangerous to promote this in society. It destroys the family, which is what most socialism platforms do. Socialism is too focused on the material.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

No.

The Church does not permit socialism.

The Church has condemned socialism for at least one hundred years.

One of the most recent encyclicals is Centesimus Annus issued by Pope St. John Paul II.

Centesimus Annus was the subject of at least one large thread here on Catholic Answers Forums.

Here is one link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12223191&highlight=encyclical#post12223191

 

[Vonsalza]

I would avoid discussions where I use my religious philosophy to promote a specific political philosophy.

Socialism has it’s problems. In absolute form, it does require communism in order to make it function. On the other hand, we benefit enormously from the socialization of many things.

Imagine if roads, the military and public utilities were purely privatized. Could you imagine a world where you pay a toll each time you change streets, where armies are owned by the wealthy and there are jungles of power lines in front of your house from rival electricity providers???

Thus I introduce to you the concept of “natural monopoly”. If you take finance or econ in school, you’ll encounter the term. And a natural monopoly is likely best controlled to some degree by the state.

Indubitably, the free market has issues as well. It lacks an incentive for stewardship in just about any form (environmental, public health, so on). It is also a natural engine for classism. But the free market does provide an excellent engine for continuous improvement in our “ways and means”.

In the US, I see Christ when I see the democrats campaign for universal healthcare. I also see Christ when I see republicans campaign for the unborn.

He is present with and absent from both sides…

 

[Wesrock]

Social democracy or a mixed market platform are not inherently evil, regardless of the people who decry every government program from social security to post roads as socialism say (but rarely do they ever lump in the military, and rarely do they see anything distinguished between vastly different economic platforms). Neither does socialism itself come under one single form, there is of course the top down approach by the state, but you couod conceivably have market socialism without government control if each business is owned by its employees and makes decisions in a democratic fashion (not necessarily pure democracy).

But regardless of my tangent, the Church has, to my understanding, ruled that the abolishment of private property and total control centrally planned economy is not in line with Church teaching, and that is incredibly different than what’s in use in Europe or what Bernie Sanders talked about.

 

[po18guy]

The Church teaches against all forms of “collectivism” - of which socialism is a part. All such systems exalt the state above the dignity of the individual.

1883 Socialization also presents dangers. Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative. The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity, according to which "a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co- ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good."7

1884 God has not willed to reserve to himself all exercise of power. He entrusts to every creature the functions it is capable of performing, according to the capacities of its own nature. This mode of governance ought to be followed in social life. The way God acts in governing the world, which bears witness to such great regard for human freedom, should inspire the wisdom of those who govern human communities. They should behave as ministers of divine providence.

1885 The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism. It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing the relationships between individuals and societies. It tends toward the establishment of true international order.

 

[HOTI]

If we look at Portugal 20 years ago, the government came to a problem with religion and socialism. Abortion was legalized in 2007.

What is your stance?

There is no stance if you are a well informed Catholic. The Church is against it. The encyclical of Pope Leo XIII on socialism will help you in regards to this subject.

w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_28121878_quod-apostolici-muneris.html

Peace.

 

[Vonsalza]

I’m having a surprisingly difficult time discerning the orthodoxy here.

-Honestly asked-

Does a good Catholic, then, advocate for the privatization of public roads, the military, public hospitals, the police, public utilities and the like? These are, without a doubt, examples of collectivism. So are they “bad”?

 

[Cathoholic]

Vonsalza. You mentioned . . . .

I’m having a surprisingly difficult time discerning the orthodoxy here.

-Honestly asked-

Think in terms of the most basic unit of society.

The most basic unit of society centers from the family, not the Government, not coroprations, and not even the individual either.

That said, families are made up of individuals.
That also said, Government makes up necessary aspects of society.
That likewise said, businesses (or as Pope John Paul II the great says . . . The “circle of production and exchange”) make up necessary elements of society.

For an authentic Catholic position, I would suggest trying to take the principle of subsidiarity and apply it to a given situation you are thinking about.

Google has a good definition of subsidiarity . . . .

Subsidiarity is an organizing principle that matters ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest or least centralized competent authority. Political decisions should be taken at a local level if possible, rather than by a central authority.

Hope this adds to your level of discernment.

God bless.

Cathoholic

---

PS

In the US, I see Christ when I see the democrats campaign for universal healthcare.

Its tempting to look at it this way.

Ask yourself WHY Congress has exempted themselves from ObamaCare.
Ask yourself if the Government ran VA Health system is what people around the world are wishing and clamoring for.
Ask yourself if you wish YOUR healthcare system were under Government ran Indian Health. What about “The Reservation”? There is a plethora of Government “programs” there. Socialists say the people on “The Reservation” need MORE tax payer funded Government “initiatives”. THEN everything will work out.
Ask if Government ran Prison Health (“Correctional Health”) has been the pinnacle of success.

. . . . previous studies, indicate that prisoners’ access to health care and the quality of that care are often deficient.4,5 Indeed, citing deplorable conditions in California’s prison system, a federal judge recently removed prison health care from the state’s control.6

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2661478/

 

[James248]

I’m having a surprisingly difficult time discerning the orthodoxy here.

-Honestly asked-

Does a good Catholic, then, advocate for the privatization of public roads, the military, public hospitals, the police, public utilities and the like? These are, without a doubt, examples of collectivism. So are they “bad”?

I agree with both your sentiments. Jesus would put our healthcare system to shame.

 

[HabemusFrancis]

I think it does in a limited way.

Were not the early christians somewhat socialist in their thinking and form of actions?

If you look at some aspects of Catholic social teachings it seems borderline socialist itself.

 

[LittleFlower378]

The Church promotes a economic idea called Distributism

Capitalism can be ok as long as its not Crony Capitalism.

 

[HOTI]

I think it does in a limited way.

Were not the early christians somewhat socialist in their thinking and form of actions?

If you look at some aspects of Catholic social teachings it seems borderline socialist itself.

There is a difference between voluntary and by force.

 

[MPat]

I’m having a surprisingly difficult time discerning the orthodoxy here.

-Honestly asked-

Does a good Catholic, then, advocate for the privatization of public roads, the military, public hospitals, the police, public utilities and the like? These are, without a doubt, examples of collectivism. So are they “bad”?

That is not “Socialism”. That is “Not-Anarcho-capitalism”.

According to “Научный коммунизм: Словарь” (“Scientific Communism: Glossary”) by Rumjancev (А. М. Румянцев), “Socialism” is the “temporary” social order when “means of production” belong to “Society” in all sectors of economy (tapemark.narod.ru/kommunizm/195.html).

Of course, in practice this “Society” ends up being indistinguishable from “State” or “Party”…

As you can see, Socialism and Anarcho-capitalism are not the only alternatives (there are positions between “all” and “none”, there are non-governmental organisations that fit neither of them well). And teaching of the Church is incompatible with both of them.

Now, of course, while the Church does give the basic principles (Solidarity, Subsidiarity, Human Dignity, Common Good), the specific distribution of responsibilities is left to politicians. For example, there was a time when (because of slow communications) it was a good idea to have the Army extremely decentralised - “municipal” or even almost “private” (each baron had his own troops). Now it is not such a good idea.

 

[goout]

I’m having a surprisingly difficult time discerning the orthodoxy here.

-Honestly asked-

Does a good Catholic, then, advocate for the privatization of public roads, the military, public hospitals, the police, public utilities and the like? These are, without a doubt, examples of collectivism. So are they “bad”?

An “ism” tends to put the ideology ahead of the human being. Many of the things we seek are for the good of society, but socialism seeks them at the expense of human dignity and freedom, generally speaking.

 

[BackHand]

Socialism has it’s problems. In absolute form, it does require communism in order to make it function. On the other hand, we benefit enormously from the socialization of many things.

No one least of all the poor will benefit from socialism as it always leads to ruin and poverty.

Imagine if roads, the military and public utilities were purely privatized. Could you imagine a world where you pay a toll each time you change streets, where armies are owned by the wealthy and there are jungles of power lines in front of your house from rival electricity providers???

So the world we live in now? I already have to pay a road toll to the state its called taxes and I also have to pay toll booth fees on top of that, this is not a argument, as you’re depicting a world that would not happen, rival private internet companies exist just fine with out the government or a jumble of wires so would other utilities.

Indubitably, the free market has issues as well. It lacks an incentive for stewardship in just about any form (environmental, public health, so on). It is also a natural engine for classism. But the free market does provide an excellent engine for continuous improvement in our “ways and means”.

The Soviet Union was not a great champion of the environment nor is China.

In the US, I see Christ when I see the democrats campaign for universal healthcare. I also see Christ when I see republicans campaign for the unborn.

He is present with and absent from both sides…

This really triggered me Look I have to pay for that healthcare and for the healthcare of others not the Government not the rich me, personally, I make near minimum wage I can’t afford Obamacare its cheaper for me to just pay out of pocket for doctor visits, but noooo the state will fore me under threat of imprisonment to buy something I don’t want or need and is more expensive then a private plan because I’m having to subsidize the care of others, which as it so happens would include abortion. And to think my ancestors murdered government officials over a small tea tax.

 

[BackHand]

Wish we could turn back time




to the good ol days…

 

[Vonsalza]

No one least of all the poor will benefit from socialism as it always leads to ruin and poverty.

So all government (with the collectivization it requires to function on any level) leads to ruin and poverty? C’mon now…

So the world we live in now? I already have to pay a road toll to the state its called taxes and I also have to pay toll booth fees on top of that, this is not a argument, as you’re depicting a world that would not happen, rival private internet companies exist just fine with out the government or a jumble of wires so would other utilities.

Then you agree, some form of socialization is beneficial as leaving things like roads as privatized would raise an issue.
And the purely privatized economy does exist in places. Somalia comes to mind. I’m sure we agree that’s not an ideal situation.
Oh, and the rural internet company is still subject to government oversight per the FCC in the US.

The Soviet Union was not a great champion of the environment nor is China.

I quite agree. But decentralizing environmental regulation is a bit of a fools errand. Take Trump’s recent view to perhaps leave environmental regulation more to states.
Is the pollution dumped into the Mississippi river from the state of Missouri going to magically stop when it reaches Arkansas? Of course not.

This really triggered me

Then you need to learn how to “adult-up”. I don’t care if you’re “triggered”. I care about the validity of your rhetoric. Dealing with people who disagree with you is, in millennial-speak, called “adulting”.

Look I have to pay for that healthcare and for the healthcare of others not the Government not the rich me, personally, I make near minimum wage I can’t afford Obamacare its cheaper for me to just pay out of pocket for doctor visits, but noooo the state will fore me under threat of imprisonment to buy something I don’t want or need and is more expensive then a private plan because I’m having to subsidize the care of others, which as it so happens would include abortion. And to think my ancestors murdered government officials over a small tea tax.

I pay for my healthcare too. It’s my biggest single expense other than the mortgage.

A universal healthcare scheme would unburden you individually and apply the bill across the nation at large. Thus when you get sick or injured (or if your child gets sick or injured) you no longer have to perform a cost-benefit analysis as to whether you’ll go get help.
Just go get it.
And if you’re not sick? Give it time. The body fails as you age. Unless you suffer a quick, traumatic death you will develop some chronic illness. To quote my urologist:
“Every man on the planet will get prostate cancer. The only question is if something else kills him first.”

Healthcare for profit is irreconcilable with the Hippocratic Oath. It’s also irreconcilable with our Lord’s view on caring for others. This is probably why healthcare in the west was largely institutionalized through the Roman state, then the Roman Catholic Church; both had not-for-profit models.

On a per capita basis, you spend substantially more on the American military presence world-wide (if you’re American). Over 600 staffed installations globally. I’m sure you’re equally outraged about that…

 

[Wesrock]

This really triggered me Look I have to pay for that healthcare and for the healthcare of others not the Government not the rich me, personally**, I make near minimum wage I can’t afford Obamacare **its cheaper for me to just pay out of pocket for doctor visits, but noooo the state will fore me under threat of imprisonment to buy something I don’t want or need and is more expensive then a private plan because I’m having to subsidize the care of others, which as it so happens would include abortion. And to think my ancestors murdered government officials over a small tea tax.

I suspect you live in a state that rejected the Medicaid expansion included in “Obamacare” if you’re making near minimum wage but don’t qualify for subsidies. You’re in that “Medicaid window” that was rejected by your state and which any attempt to later modify in Congress was blocked by republicans.

Also, there’s no threat of imprisonment, exactly. You pay more in taxes if you’re not insured, which makes sense as you’re a public liability risk. If you refuse to pay taxes, yes, you might wind up with some problems, but that’s true of any tax. There’s just a tax you have to pay but become exempt from if you have health insurance.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Reading St.John Paul II, he says socialism leads to communism.

Here is what the Popes have said about socialism:
tfp.org/what-the-popes-have-to-say-about-socialism/

Socialism as Bernie Sanders projects it is very dangerous and is what America is going through today. A false sense of love and equality for things that are immoral such as same sex marriage and abortion. Sanders platform tries to spark trouble and and get people organized and fired up over political correctness. He fires up trouble using racism and gender ideology in his Socialist Democratic Platform. Sanders believes that there should be no difference between a man and a woman which is highly dangerous to promote this in society. It destroys the family, which is what most socialism platforms do. Socialism is too focused on the material.

Just because socialism did not work at one point in human history is no reason to believe it cannot thrive at another point in human history. As the world evolves, political systems will likely change and adapt.