Does the Church teach that the prophecy of Revelation 20:1-10 is being fulfilled now?

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Others have chimed in, but my thought has always been that this knowledge belongs solely to the Father, thus he chooses who it is revealed. Jesus, being one in being with Father, knows when the the world will end, but out of humble obedience does not reveal it to humanity.

I’ve liken it to a priest and the seal of the confessional. The priest knows the penitent’s sins, but does not reveal the sins to anyone because this knowledge belongs to Christ alone. Likewise, Christ does not reveal the hour the world will end because this knowledge belongs to the Father. It is sacred knowledge that we humans do no have a right to know.
I think that is a pretty good answer. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paras 470-474 make it clear that Jesus did indeed possess all the knowledge the Father had. The Catechism referred the reader to footnote # 109, Mark 13:32. The Douay-Rheims w/Haydock has some excellent notes ( see below )

But how can the Son be ignorant of that last day? Were this the case, we must thence conclude that his nature was imperfect: since he was under the necessity of a second coming, and yet was ignorant when that time should be. But we must remember, that the meaning of this sentence is not, that Christ was really ignorant of this circumstance, but only that it was not then a convenient time to disclose the secret. S. Austin. — Not as if Christ were ignorant himself, as certain Eutychian heretics, called Agnoitæ, held; but because he knew it not as our teacher, to teach it others, as being not expedient. S. Ambrose de fide, l. v. c. viii. — The Son of God is ignorant of this day, not according to his divinity, which sees and knows all things; but according to his humanity, which does not know it of itself, of its own light, but by revelation which is made to it by the divinity, which is intimately united to it. In naturâ quidem divinitatis novit, says S. Gregory, non ex naturâ humanitatis. See S. Matt. xxiv. 36. 👍
 
Careful. Don’t want to get caught up in either Nestorianism or Monophysitism. One declares the separation of Christ’s natures, one proclaims only one. These are both heresies.

I wonder if any knowledgeable Apologist has an understanding of Triniterian theology as it applies to this statement made by Christ. I believe I heard that Christ spoke as He did not know the hour, as in it was up the Father to decide. He did not know it as in He did not determine it and it was not His to reveal, but He is consubstantial with the Father, and thus nothing can be ‘hidden’ from Him. I have heard the ‘completely dual nature and ignorance on Christ’s part’ as being a Nestorian heresy.

From a post on the subject from an older thread:

Be careful when considering His dual nature too separately. Hopefully someone with more experience can weigh in on this.
Granted. See my post #21. 👍
 
I do agree that some issues are probably more severe now than in the past. Pornagraphy for instance is more accessible now than ever before in a million years of human history. However, some interrelated evils such as abortion, infanticide, prostitution and sexual slavery have existed for time immortal. I think it is therefore a fallacy to believe that we are significantly more decadent now than in the past. We are merely sinners now, and our grandparents and great grandparents were also sinners.

Further, and this is just my opinion of the matter, is that it is fallacious to attribute all sin and evil to Satan. We humans are just as capable of committing evil as the devil, and just as deserving of eternity in Hell were it now for the Grace of God available to us through the sacrament of penance. Satan once had a choice to accept God’s grace or futilely work against Him for all eternity. God has given us that choice, and the means to avoid Satan’s fate within our lifetimes.

To blame Satan for all the wrongs in the world is to open ourselves to discouragement. Christ has given mankind the gifts to avoid sin, but we sin anyways. It is not Satan who causes us to sin, but our own choices. To blame Satan causes us to loose hope, because Satan is far more powerful than ourselves. When we repent however, we accept responsibility for ours sins, and place our faith and confidence in an infinitely powerful God.

The world is full of evil deeds caused by evil men. Satan would love credit for these deeds, because it discourages our Faith. Without Faith in an infinitely powerful God, it is easy give up and participate in these evils. With faith, we know our choices matter, and can choose to live a virtuous life, and know that God has our backs.

The Father chooses not to tell us when the world will end, because he does not want us to despair. All evils in this world highlight how good our God is by contrast. In a blink of an eye, God could vanquish all evil men and all evil angels and leave only the repentant. But God wants all men to repent. There is no time limit save death, knowing the sun will rise the next day gives us more hope than knowing when the Son will return to judge us!
Opinions are not truth. The Church tells us all evil comes from satan. We are not free agents in this. We all carry the stain of Original Sin that was caused by our first parents. We will all suffer from temptation until we die. Even the Pope goes to Confession.

bible.cc/james/1-13.htm

Peace,
Ed
 
COPLAND 3:

First of all, I want to thank you, and God for the wonderful collating and gathering of scriptures with commentaries that you have made availabe regarding this subject and other subjects. It is a friendly user resource. You must have spent hundreds of hours on this project.

Having said that, there are two main objections that seem to contradict the amillenial interpretation that states that the kingdom of God is now reigning over the earth, while Satan is bound (restrained) for a thousand years (in a general way of speaking).

The first objection is mainly NT scriptures which say otherwise. Scriptures which are quoted by Bishop Ignatius, Bishop Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen and others. Here is a partial list of such scriptures:

1 Peter 5:8:Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.

Ephesians 6:11-12 : Put you on the armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil. For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places

Ephesians 2:1-2: And you, when you were dead in your offences, and sins,
Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of this air, of the spirit that now works on the children of unbelief:


2 Corinth. 11:13-14:For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.And no wonder: for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

Revelation 2:13: I know where thou dwells where the seat of Satan is: and thou holdeth fast my name, and hast not denied my faith. Even in those days when Antipas was my faithful witness, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.

1 John 5:18-19: We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.


Matthew 7:15: Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Acts 20:29:** I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock.**.

God’s peace

micah
 
COPLAND 3:

First of all, I want to thank you, and God for the wonderful collating and gathering of scriptures with commentaries that you have made availabe regarding this subject and other subjects. It is a friendly user resource. You must have spent hundreds of hours on this project.

Having said that, there are two main objections that seem to contradict the amillenial interpretation that states that the kingdom of God is now reigning over the earth, while Satan is bound (restrained) for a thousand years (in a general way of speaking).

The first objection is mainly NT scriptures which say otherwise. Scriptures which are quoted by Bishop Ignatius, Bishop Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen and others. Here is a partial list of such scriptures:

1 Peter 5:8:Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.

Ephesians 6:11-12 : Put you on the armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil. For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places

Ephesians 2:1-2: And you, when you were dead in your offences, and sins,
Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of this air, of the spirit that now works on the children of unbelief:


2 Corinth. 11:13-14:For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.And no wonder: for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

Revelation 2:13: I know where thou dwells where the seat of Satan is: and thou holdeth fast my name, and hast not denied my faith. Even in those days when Antipas was my faithful witness, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.

1 John 5:18-19: We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.


Matthew 7:15: Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Acts 20:29:** I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock.**.

God’s peace

micah
Thank you for the comments!

As for those Scriptures, the amill view does not suggest that during the 1000 year reign that Satan is powerless. Satan is still very dangerous. But he does not have the control like he used to have before the Passion when most of the world was under his control and God’s chosen people were limited to a small area and dispersed most of the time. But when the Holy Spirit was sent, the Gospel spread like wildfire and God’s people turned from being an isolated remnant into being in all corners of the earth. Just look at how the Church grew and transformed into a massive body of God! Compare that to the very small percentage of God’s people prior. But when the Antichrist comes at the end of the world, Satan will regain that power he had once before and God’s people, the Church, will be suppressed once again for a short time until Jesus comes to judge the world.

Satan once ruled the world, but now he is more like a leader of a terrorist organization. But for a short time he will regain that power and will work through the Antichrist and the False Prophet and lead the nations of the world to try to destroy the Church.
 
Thank you for the comments!

As for those Scriptures, the amill view does not suggest that during the 1000 year reign that Satan is powerless. Satan is still very dangerous. But he does not have the control like he used to have before the Passion when most of the world was under his control and God’s chosen people were limited to a small area and dispersed most of the time. But when the Holy Spirit was sent, the Gospel spread like wildfire and God’s people turned from being an isolated remnant into being in all corners of the earth. Just look at how the Church grew and transformed into a massive body of God! Compare that to the very small percentage of God’s people prior. But when the Antichrist comes at the end of the world, Satan will regain that power he had once before and God’s people, the Church, will be suppressed once again for a short time until Jesus comes to judge the world.

Satan once ruled the world, but now he is more like a leader of a terrorist organization. But for a short time he will regain that power and will work through the Antichrist and the False Prophet and lead the nations of the world to try to destroy the Church.
Well, 1 John 5:19 says that ‘the whole world lies in the power of the evil one’. When I think of the untold millions who have died in WWI and WWII, the American Civil War, the genocides, tortures, persecutions, the dropping of the atom bomb, and the countless horrors of sin and death how can anything be worse than this?

The second objection that I have to the amillenial position is that according to Rev.19, Jesus Christ and the saints battle the anti-christ and the false prophet at the appearance of Jesus Christ. The anti-christ and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. Then Rev.20 says that Satan is bound in the abyss for a thousand years. After the thousand years he is let loose for a little while and deceives the nations to attack the holy city. At which point they are judged by God. Satan and those who followed him are then cast into the lake of fire where the anti-christ and false prophet had been cast one thousand years previously.

God’s peace

micah
 
Well, 1 John 5:19 says that ‘the whole world lies in the power of the evil one’. When I think of the untold millions who have died in WWI and WWII, the American Civil War, the genocides, tortures, persecutions, the dropping of the atom bomb, and the countless horrors of sin and death how can anything be worse than this?

The second objection that I have to the amillenial position is that according to Rev.19, Jesus Christ and the saints battle the anti-christ and the false prophet at the appearance of Jesus Christ. The anti-christ and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. Then Rev.20 says that Satan is bound in the abyss for a thousand years. After the thousand years he is let loose for a little while and deceives the nations to attack the holy city. At which point they are judged by God. Satan and those who followed him are then cast into the lake of fire where the anti-christ and false prophet had been cast one thousand years previously.

God’s peace

micah
As for those passages from Rev 19 and 20, keep in mind that the whole book of Revelation is not in chronological order, but in many places it tells about the same events but with some different details, basically recapitulates. That is the puzzle of Revelation. I have done a work on Revelation where I put Revelation in chronological order and I will post the link later whe i get to my PC. Most prophetic writings are usually not in chronological order, but they are a series of visions, and in the case of Revelation John explains the same events multiple times but gives fewer or more details in each description.

As for your first objection, I understand what you are saying, but if you compare those times against those of the times of the Antichrist, there is no comparison. Satan’s control is turning the world against God’s people, and in the worst moments in history as you mentioned, there never was a threat the existance of the Church as how it will in the end when the Antichrist comes. When that day comes the Church will be threatened world wide and Christians will basically have to operate “underground”. When Christianity began 2000 years ago it was that way, but the Church grew extremely fast even under those conditions. Even Tertullian wrote to a leader of the Roman Empire saying, “Everytime you mow us (Christians) down, our numbers increase, the blood of Christians is the seed.”. Those were bad times, even worst than those days you mentioned. Satan no longer could keep God’s people from spreading. But in the Tribulation he will persecute the Church so badly that it barely survives. Now for the most part it is not dangerous to be a Christian except for certain areas of the world, but when Satan is allowed to exercise his full power then no place on earth will be safe. The last 2000 years has been an extremely fruitful time for the Church, she is all over the world. But there are nasty times ahead, and the days of a fairly free opportunity to worship God just about everywhere will come to an end. Satan and his demons strike now like a terrorist, but when he is no longer restrained he will require a world wide worship of him through the Antichrist.
 
As for those passages from Rev 19 and 20, keep in mind that the whole book of Revelation is not in chronological order, but in many places it tells about the same events but with some different details, basically recapitulates. That is the puzzle of Revelation. I have done a work on Revelation where I put Revelation in chronological order and I will post the link later whe i get to my PC. Most prophetic writings are usually not in chronological order, but they are a series of visions, and in the case of Revelation John explains the same events multiple times but gives fewer or more details in each description.

As for your first objection, I understand what you are saying, but if you compare those times against those of the times of the Antichrist, there is no comparison. Satan’s control is turning the world against God’s people, and in the worst moments in history as you mentioned, there never was a threat the existance of the Church as how it will in the end when the Antichrist comes. When that day comes the Church will be threatened world wide and Christians will basically have to operate “underground”. When Christianity began 2000 years ago it was that way, but the Church grew extremely fast even under those conditions. Even Tertullian wrote to a leader of the Roman Empire saying, “Everytime you mow us (Christians) down, our numbers increase, the blood of Christians is the seed.”. Those were bad times, even worst than those days you mentioned. Satan no longer could keep God’s people from spreading. But in the Tribulation he will persecute the Church so badly that it barely survives. Now for the most part it is not dangerous to be a Christian except for certain areas of the world, but when Satan is allowed to exercise his full power then no place on earth will be safe. The last 2000 years has been an extremely fruitful time for the Church, she is all over the world. But there are nasty times ahead, and the days of a fairly free opportunity to worship God just about everywhere will come to an end. Satan and his demons strike now like a terrorist, but when he is no longer restrained he will require a world wide worship of him through the Antichrist.
I understand that it will be much worse when the anti-christ, the man of lawlessness is revealed. I understand that this is the time when the restraining force will be removed. In that regard, Satan is restrained from giving the man of lawlessness such diabolical authority that is unlike anything that he has been ever allowed to give to anyone. Including , the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Nero, Herod and all the other cruel and demonically inspired dicators during the last two thousand years.

Yes, the Book of Revelations is not chronological. But one has to do backward sommersaults with Rev. 19 and Rev. 20 not to see that Satan is bound for a thousand years so as not to deceive the nations. The antichrist and false prophet were cast into the lake of fire because of the great deception that God allowed Satan to bring to this earth through the anti-christ and false prophet. This is why Satan was bound for a thousand years.

Why Satan must be released and deceive the nations again, and then be judged and cast into the lake of fire where the false prophet and anti-christ had already been cast, is a theological question open to discussion.

Quite frankly, the millenial understanding of the early church fathers seems very reasonable. According to some of them, the survivors of the judgements to come during the time of the anti-christ will live on the earth and have children. If their children have never been tempted by Satan because he is bound from deceiving anyone, then their faith too, must be challenged. Just as Adam and Eve were challenged. During this time the early church fathers teach that the earth will be restored as it was in Eden.

God’s peace

micah
 
Opinions are not truth. The Church tells us all evil comes from satan. We are not free agents in this. We all carry the stain of Original Sin that was caused by our first parents. We will all suffer from temptation until we die. Even the Pope goes to Confession.

bible.cc/james/1-13.htm

Peace,
Ed
The church does not teach that there is a source of evil. The Church teaches there is a source of goodness. Original sin is the fault of human choice, not of Satan for offering temptation.
 
Mercytruth
Yes, the Book of Revelations is not chronological. But one has to do backward sommersaults with Rev. 19 and Rev. 20 not to see that Satan is bound for a thousand years so as not to deceive the nations. The antichrist and false prophet were cast into the lake of fire because of the great deception that God allowed Satan to bring to this earth through the anti-christ and false prophet. This is why Satan was bound for a thousand years.
Throughout the book of Revelation there are different events that sort of spring up obscurely. But recognizing that they are same events and then putting them together helps us understand the whole picture. The battle of Armageddon is mentioned in 3 places in the book of Revelation (16:13-21; 19:11-20; 20:7-10), and each passage provides details that the others don’t, but all 3 give a clear picture when put together, similar to the way the details of the 4 Gospels when they are combined.

Here is a sketch I made of the details of all three passages about Armageddon, in the order that they are to happen.

Satan goes and prepares the hearts of nations to oppose the Church, and the Antichrist and False Prophet develop an army and then gets them ready to attack the Church.

20:7
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

16:13 And I saw, issuing from the mouth of the dragon and from the mouth of the beast and from the mouth of the false prophet, three foul spirits like frogs; 14 for they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.

19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who sits upon the horse and against his army.

**All the forces of evil get into position to surround God’s people throughout the world.

16:16** And they assembled them at the place which is called in Hebrew Armageddon.

20:9 And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city;

**Then Christ comes with His armies of angels to defeat the army of the Devil once and for all.

19:11** Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed which no one knows but himself. 13 He is clad in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, followed him on white horses. 15 From his mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords. 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.”

16:17 The seventh angel poured his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

**Then the battle begins and Christ begins to destroy the army with massive hail.

16:20** And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found; 21 and great hailstones, heavy as a hundred-weight, dropped on men from heaven, till men cursed God for the plague of the hail, so fearful was that plague.

**Then the forces of Heaven capture the Antichrist and the False Prophet and cast them into the Lake of Fire.

19:20** And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur.

**Then the forces of Heaven kills all those who united with the Antichrist and leaves them for dead.

19:21** And the rest were slain by the sword of him who sits upon the horse, the sword that issues from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

**Then Christ brings fire down to consume all that is left and He then has Satan thrown into the Lake of Fire with the Antichrist and the False Prophet.

20:9** fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 
mercytruth
Quite frankly, the millenial understanding of the early church fathers seems very reasonable.
I have studied the expositions and comments from the Fathers on this subject, and here is what I concluded in my comments in the Aquinas Study Bible, “As we can see below, the premillennial view was held by some very early Fathers of the Church, such as St. Papias, St. Justin, St. Irenaeus, etc. Origen saw that this understanding was a Jewish idea, which makes sense because many Jews were expecting the Messiah to come and to overthrow the Roman empire, in which their false messianic hope led them to not recognizing the Suffering Servant who came not to establish an earthly kingdom but a heavenly one. Perhaps some of the Jewish Christians held on to that understanding and applied it to the 1000 year reign found in Revelation 20. Since it was very common for Jewish rites and traditions to be practiced from time to time in order to avert the lack of belief of the Jewish Christians so that they would not feel as if they were being dragged away all at once from their beliefs, more than likely the earthly messianic kingdom that many Jews had hoped for while under Roman oppression was then transferred over to Christ’s second coming and gained some popularity among some early Christians, even Gentile Christians.”

I continued on with this, "Another observation I find concerning the premillennial views of some of the Fathers is that their explanation about the 1000 year reign is very limited in the sense of an exposition and articulation of the passage found in Revelation. Their whole eschatology is quite undeveloped as well as often being inconsistant and contradictory to some of their own words in their whole body of writings.

Eusebius seemed to think that St. Papias is the main reason why some Church Fathers after him adopted a premillennial position, because he was among the Apostolic times. Eusebius was fortunate enough to have access to his writings, which are lost now, and he did not appear to be impressed with Papias’ ‘understanding’ on many things. Perhaps some of the misunderstandings of Papias was adopted by later Fathers like St. Irenaeus, who also had spurious ideas such as Jesus living to an old age (Against Heresies, 2:22:4-6), which is another tradition that he very likely got from Papias."
 
Mercytruth

Throughout the book of Revelation there are different events that sort of spring up obscurely. But recognizing that they are same events and then putting them together helps us understand the whole picture. The battle of Armageddon is mentioned in 3 places in the book of Revelation (16:13-21; 19:11-20; 20:7-10), and each passage provides details that the others don’t, but all 3 give a clear picture when put together, similar to the way the details of the 4 Gospels when they are combined.

Here is a sketch I made of the details of all three passages about Armageddon, in the order that they are to happen.

Satan goes and prepares the hearts of nations to oppose the Church, and the Antichrist and False Prophet develop an army and then gets them ready to attack the Church.

20:7
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

16:13 And I saw, issuing from the mouth of the dragon and from the mouth of the beast and from the mouth of the false prophet, three foul spirits like frogs; 14 for they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.

19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who sits upon the horse and against his army.

**All the forces of evil get into position to surround God’s people throughout the world.
I don’t think we can assume that these are same event either

God’s peace

micah
 
mercytruth

I have studied the expositions and comments from the Fathers on this subject, and here is what I concluded in my comments in the Aquinas Study Bible, “As we can see below, the premillennial view was held by some very early Fathers of the Church, such as St. Papias, St. Justin, St. Irenaeus, etc. Origen saw that this understanding was a Jewish idea, which makes sense because many Jews were expecting the Messiah to come and to overthrow the Roman empire, in which their false messianic hope led them to not recognizing the Suffering Servant who came not to establish an earthly kingdom but a heavenly one. Perhaps some of the Jewish Christians held on to that understanding and applied it to the 1000 year reign found in Revelation 20. Since it was very common for Jewish rites and traditions to be practiced from time to time in order to avert the lack of belief of the Jewish Christians so that they would not feel as if they were being dragged away all at once from their beliefs, more than likely the earthly messianic kingdom that many Jews had hoped for while under Roman oppression was then transferred over to Christ’s second coming and gained some popularity among some early Christians, even Gentile Christians.”

I continued on with this, "Another observation I find concerning the premillennial views of some of the Fathers is that their explanation about the 1000 year reign is very limited in the sense of an exposition and articulation of the passage found in Revelation. Their whole eschatology is quite undeveloped as well as often being inconsistant and contradictory to some of their own words in their whole body of writings.

Eusebius seemed to think that St. Papias is the main reason why some Church Fathers after him adopted a premillennial position, because he was among the Apostolic times. Eusebius was fortunate enough to have access to his writings, which are lost now, and he did not appear to be impressed with Papias’ ‘understanding’ on many things. Perhaps some of the misunderstandings of Papias was adopted by later Fathers like St. Irenaeus, who also had spurious ideas such as Jesus living to an old age (Against Heresies, 2:22:4-6), which is another tradition that he very likely got from Papias."
I think it would be assumption to think that Ireneaus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Lactantius, Barnabas, and others were depending on St.Papias for their understanding of the millenium. They quoted from Isaiah and the prophets, the book of Romans and from the concept of Eden being restored.

Eusebius was a bit of a triumphalist in thinking once the persecution had ended under Roman pagan rule, that Constantine had initiated a golden age of the kingdom of God on earth. Naturally, he would be inclined to think that Satan had been bound in the process.

God’s peace

micah
 
Edit: I made this before your response and simply to impart more knowledge on the subject, not to chastise or prove anyone wrong. I am also confused on the subject and thought this might help. My emphasis is not meant to be chastising or rebuking:

He WOULD know. They are ONE GOD, not three separate gods. No knowledge is withheld from another, and Christ’s nature was not completely separate or confused (these are both heresies). Christ was likely speaking in terms that He did not determine the time, and/or He was not at liberty to divulge the information. It was not His place to ‘know’, so to speak. He knows all that the Father knows, but He does not KNOW (determine, reveal, decide) the time as the Father does.

From John Chrysostom:

" ‘Of that day and that hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven nor the Son, except the Father.’ By the saying ‘neither the angels’ he stopped their mouths, lest they seek to learn what even the angels did not know; and by the saying, ‘nor the Son’ he forbids them not only to learn but even to inquire. He refers this knowledge to the Father both to make the matter more awesome and to preclude their inquiring about it. If this is not the reason, and he really is ignorant of the day and the hour, when will he come to know it? At the same time we do? … He says, ‘When you do not expect it, he will come,’ because he wants them to be anxiously waiting and constantly engaged in virtuous practice. What he means is something like this: ‘If the generality of men knew when they were to die, they would strive earnestly only at that hour’ " (Homilies on the Gospel of Matthew 77:1 [A.D. 370]).

From Augustine:

“When God is said not to know something, either it is said in reference to what he does not approve, that is, of something he does not acknowledge in discipline or in doctrines, as when it is said, ‘I do not know you,’ or in reference to that which it is useless to know and from which he draws an advantage for those who do not know. It is well accepted, therefore, that when it is said that the Father alone knows, it was so stated because it is he that makes the Son know, and when it is said that the Son does not know, it is so stated because he makes men not to know, that is, he does not avail them of a knowledge which it is useless for them to have” (Eighty-Three Diverse Questions 60 [inter A.D. 389-396]).

However, there are views that as man, he did not know or not need to know. It is a rather confusing subject and it is difficult to tell where theology ends and heresy begins:

archive.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9301frs.asp

I hope someone with more knowledge can chime in.
🙂
 
St. Irenaeus didn’t say that Jesus lived to an old age. IIRC, he said basically that Jesus lived past the age of 30 (ie, to the age of 33), which counted for various prophecies as being the mature or old age of forty; and that by His rabbinic learning and wisdom He counted as being old. (There’s also something about the age of fifty, but that came from a weird textual variant or was miswritten, so scholars argue about it.) Anyway, the general point was that Jesus lived long enough to experience life as a baby, a child, a young man, and a mature man (and an old man, if you count by His wisdom), so that His life recapped and redeemed all the different ages of man.

It’s one of those Greek things. They like recaps.

Anyway, don’t be blaming Papias for that one. It’s a fulfillment of prophecy/mystical meaning of different ages thing.

Tyconius (think of him as a Donatist version of Scott Hahn – even the anti-Donatists like St. Augustine were desperate to save his Scriptural learning for the heritage of the Church) was the go-to guy for understanding Revelation. Recapitulation, mystical numbers, the wheat and the tares staying together till the end, the messages being meant for all ages of the Church and not just for specific historical times – that’s all Tyconius type stuff. (And yes, all the wheat and tares, stick with your bishop even if you don’t like him stuff that Tyconius said – not very Donatist. Even in his own time, people couldn’t figure out why he went Donatist, and then taught anti-Donatist stuff as a Donatist.)

So yeah, pretty heavy influence on most Western commentaries on Revelation: St. Victorinus, St. Primasius, St. Caesarius of Arles, St. Bede, etc., etc.
 
=lakotak;9905771]I can understand, for some reason, that this information could be withheld from him while he was on earth. But I am wondering how it is possible that him being God in union with the Father in his glorified state still would not know, if this would be the case. Just something to think about from time to time.
Christ in His human nature may not have known? Even this is unlikely. Christ was TEACHING a truth; which could easilt have excluded Himself, as He already knew it.

Christ as God; the Second Person of the Trinity HAD to Know as Each Person of the Trinity is “Co-Equal and Co Eternal” There is BUT ONE GOD.

**John 10:30 **“I and the Father are one.”

**Deuteronomy 6:4 **“Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord”.

God Bless,
Pat
 
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