Does the devil exist in the Old Testament?

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I’ve heard it claimed several times that the idea of Satan as an adversary to God hadn’t developed yet in Judaism, so the reason that God in the Old Testament seems more vengeful is because there had yet to exist the notion that there was a devil who worked evil. I know that the “satan” referred to in the book of Job is not the same devil of the New Testament, but a title given to the angel meant to act as a prosecutor.
 
I know that the “satan” referred to in the book of Job is not the same devil of the New Testament, but a title given to the angel meant to act as a prosecutor.
First I’ve heard it put like this. Of course, the devil has existed since before mankind. But, he was most likely not fully nderstood via the theological development that existed in the prior covenants. The devil is, of course, the accuser, who incited Joshua to conduct the first census of Israel. The serpent was surely either the devil himself, as he did not accuse, but tempted. As well, the serpent was a liar, and this is not of an angel, who is a messenger, but rather of the devil - the liar and father of lies. Consider, the father of lies was the instigator of the first lie - eating of the forbidden fruit.

As to the scripture writers’ understanding of the devil, that was to be fulfilled at the same time as the Mosaic law was fulfilled, through the revelation of our Lord Jesus.
 
Satan existed before the Old Testament, all throughout the Old Testament , in the New Testament and from the moment of Christ’s death and resurrection…to this very minute while women are being beaten, soldiers are dying, children are being abused, people are lying and killing and stealing from each other…he will exist until God throws him and death and sin into the Lake of Fire. Only Jesus Blood is able to stop him and our faith in that Blood. We still don’t “stop” him…we only protect our souls from him and have access to Prayer to ask God, Through Jesus, to help us from the attacks that Satan makes against us.
Good Question.
Donna.
 
If you consider the book of Wisdom to be part of the Old Testament, as Catholics do, then the answer is: Yes. Wisdom 2:24 says, “But by the envy of the devil, death came into the world.”
 
First I’ve heard it put like this. Of course, the devil has existed since before mankind. But, he was most likely not fully nderstood via the theological development that existed in the prior covenants. The devil is, of course, the accuser, who incited Joshua to conduct the first census of Israel. The serpent was surely either the devil himself, as he did not accuse, but tempted. As well, the serpent was a liar, and this is not of an angel, who is a messenger, but rather of the devil - the liar and father of lies. Consider, the father of lies was the instigator of the first lie - eating of the forbidden fruit.

As to the scripture writers’ understanding of the devil, that was to be fulfilled at the same time as the Mosaic law was fulfilled, through the revelation of our Lord Jesus.
Yes, indeed, Satan has existed since before mankind. But what was Satan’s first lie?

God tells the first human being: “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Gen. 2:17).

Satan tells the woman: “Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil” (Gen. 3:4-5).

Satan tempts the woman to eat of the forbidden fruit **by lying **about what God has said would happen if she ate of it.

Satan’s first lie? Man “shall not surely die.” He is an immortal soul!

And human beings have believed in that lie ever since. Indeed, Satan not only predated mankind for probably millions of years, but he is also “the most cunning [creature] that the Lord God had made” (Gen. 3:1).
 
Yes, indeed, Satan has existed since before mankind. But what was Satan’s first lie?

God tells the first human being: “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Gen. 2:17).

Satan tells the woman: “Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil” (Gen. 3:4-5).

Satan tempts the woman to eat of the forbidden fruit **by lying **about what God has said would happen if she ate of it.

Satan’s first lie? Man “shall not surely die.” He is an immortal soul!

And human beings have believed in that lie ever since. Indeed, Satan not only predated mankind for probably millions of years, but he is also “the most cunning [creature] that the Lord God had made” (Gen. 3:1).
Welcome to the forums! We are not to be fascinated with the devil, but only to know him and his tactics, so that we may discern from whence ideas come. We live on a spiritual battlefield, and a good General knows his enemy.
 
Without doubt, the devil existed in the Old Testament. However, the devil wasn’t known as such until later in Jewish history. I’ve heard a Jewish believer in Christ teach that the idea of the devil really developed following the Babylonian captivity. He used parallel passages from 1 Samuel and 1 Chronicles to explain this. It was his view that 1 Chronicles was written after the Babylonian captivity, while 1 Samuel was written before. He saw 1 Chronicles as a reteaching of Israel’s history after the captivity. The verses are quoted below - check out the differences:

1 Samuel 24:1
The LORD’S anger against Israel flared again, and he incited David against the Israelites by prompting him to number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
A satan rose up against Israel, and he enticed David into taking a census of Israel.
 
Yes, indeed, Satan has existed since before mankind. But what was Satan’s first lie?

God tells the first human being: “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Gen. 2:17).

Satan tells the woman: “Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil” (Gen. 3:4-5).

Satan tempts the woman to eat of the forbidden fruit **by lying **about what God has said would happen if she ate of it.

Satan’s first lie? Man “shall not surely die.” He is an immortal soul!

And human beings have believed in that lie ever since. Indeed, Satan not only predated mankind for probably millions of years, but he is also “the most cunning [creature] that the Lord God had made” (Gen. 3:1).
Nice Post!

This reminds me in some ways at Easter Vigil and through Easter when the (R.C.I.A. candidates") and Faithful make their Easter Promise and their Renunciation of Satan (the Father of all lies).
Do you reject sin so as to live in the freedom of God’s children?
Do you reject the glamor of evil and refuse to be mastered by sin?
Do you reject Satan, father of sin and prince of darkness?
Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth?
Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from dead, and now seated at the right hand of the Father?
Do yo believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?
**The renunciation of the devil must have been adopted in all the churches prior to Nicaea. The North African church in Tertullian’s day had: "I renounce the devil, his pomp, and his angels. Ambrose’s church in Milan had the candidate renounce, “the devil and his works, the world, its luxuries and pleasures.”

In Gaul, the renunciation included, the devil, the world, and sins."
According to Chrysostom, at Antioch it was; “I renounce you, Satan, and your pomp, and your service,” and at Constantinople, I renounce you, Satan, and your pomp, and your service, and your angels.

The renunciation was very personal. Satan is addressed directly as if he were present and visible; he is defied “to his face” by having the candidate face the west during the renunciation, a custom apparently universal by the fourth century. In many places hands were outstretched towards the west, towards the devil, as though he were present himself. In some churches the candidates were even made to spit towards the west.

To renounce Satan thus is not to reject a mythological being in whose existence one does not even believe. It is to reject an entire worldview made up of pride and self-afirmation, of that pride which has truly taken human life from God and made it into darkness, death and hell.

One can be sure that Satan himself will not forget this renunciation from followers of Christ. Indeed this renunciation is a challenge. (“Breathe and spit upon him!”. A war is declared! A fight begins whose real issue is either eternal life or eternal damnation.
For this is what being a Christian Catholic is truly about! This is what our choice ultimately means.**

Peace
Chris
 
Without doubt, the devil existed in the Old Testament. However, the devil wasn’t known as such until later in Jewish history. I’ve heard a Jewish believer in Christ teach that the idea of the devil really developed following the Babylonian captivity. He used parallel passages from 1 Samuel and 1 Chronicles to explain this. It was his view that 1 Chronicles was written after the Babylonian captivity, while 1 Samuel was written before. He saw 1 Chronicles as a reteaching of Israel’s history after the captivity. The verses are quoted below - check out the differences:

1 Samuel 24:1
The LORD’S anger against Israel flared again, and he incited David against the Israelites by prompting him to number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1
A satan rose up against Israel, and he enticed David into taking a census of Israel.
Yeah, it kind of complicates it since there is no devil in Orthodox Judaism (which I personally think is a later development in response to Christianity). Like I said, I can believe that the being referred to as “satan” in the book of Job and the New Testament devil are two different beings, but I’ve always had problems with the idea the devil was a later development affected by political factors, and I’ve never really seen this discussed from an apologetic perspective without resorting to some sort of anthropological cop-out that tries to explain it as some human development (The Jews borrowed from Zoroastrians etc…).
 
Yeah, it kind of complicates it since there is no devil in Orthodox Judaism (which I personally think is a later development in response to Christianity). Like I said, I can believe that the being referred to as “satan” in the book of Job and the New Testament devil are two different beings, but I’ve always had problems with the idea the devil was a later development affected by political factors, and I’ve never really seen this discussed from an apologetic perspective without resorting to some sort of anthropological cop-out that tries to explain it as some human development (The Jews borrowed from Zoroastrians etc…).
Our understanding of God has increased with each succeeding covenant. Since all spirits who rebelled did so before the creation of man, nothing has changed since Adam and Eve were created. However, man’s knowledge and understanding of the spiritual realm has increased. Lucifer (Satan/the devil) is the prince of all devils, as we see from scripture. All other devils/demons/evil spirits are subject to him, as he is the “liar and father of lies” (John 8:44). All who deny God are liars, and the devil was the first, so he is the father of lies and is positioned over all other devils. As Christians, we cannot be worried about what other faiths have either believed from the beginning, or have developed in response to Christianity. What we hold firmly to are the beliefs taught by the Church, which has the fulness of revealed truth. As to Judaism, even at the time of Christ it had fractured into parts - some holding to Torah, while others also accepted the prophets. Since then, even more fractures have occurred, even to lead the chosen people of God further astray. This is the work of the devil, the prince of demons, who desires to possess us for eternity, and who hates all that is good and holy.

Christ, Who is fulness of Truth, could not speak of a recently created devil without also teaching about the very same recent creation of that devil. He did no such thing - rather, He spoke of the devil as a liar “from the beginning” (John 8:44, 1 John 3:8). Thus, the devil’s conversion from good to evil occurred long before mankind existed, as man was not present from the beginning. John speaks of Jesus being made manifest, taking flesh, to counter what the devil had accomplished.
 
OP was likely thinking of Torah Jews, who accept only the first five books of Moses.
Did you read the original post in this thread? Tminusfun explicitly discusses the book of Job in the second sentence of his two sentence post.
 
Is 14:12 " How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? how art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?"
 
Did you read the original post in this thread? Tminusfun explicitly discusses the book of Job in the second sentence of his two sentence post.
Yep, sure did. Reviewing that post, we must define what “Old Testament” means. Is it Torah (the first five Books of Moses), or is it the 46 or the later 39 book Christian Old Testament? This makes a difference in our understanding of revealed truth.

Since the devil is clearly spoken of in what Christians call the Old Testament, and since neither God, nor the nature of evil ever changes, what I do not understand is this concept of two devils - an earlier angel “accuser” versus a later devil (as we know him). The accuser is the one prince of demons, who lead the original rebellion against God. He was a murderer “from the beginning” according to Christ. Man was not present at the beginning, having not yet been created. Therefore, the devil is one and the same throughout biblical history. Let us not forget that the devil is a spirit being, as are all angels, and so, is sometimes referred to as an angel. However, “angel” is an assignment, a mission if you will, rather than a definition of their being. They are spirits, and their mission is “angel” (messenger). The devil is not a messenger, but an accuser whose intent is to destroy us before our God. He accused Job, but failed. He tempted Jesus, but failed.

What has changed is man’s understanding of the devil. From the writing of the Books of Moses, to our modern day theology, there has been increased understanding both of God’s nature, as well as the nature and source of evil. The Book of Job is a large portion of the revelation to mankind regarding the nature and tactics of the devil. Until Job was written, man’s understanding of the devil was much more murky.
 
Did you read the original post in this thread? Tminusfun explicitly discusses the book of Job in the second sentence of his two sentence post.
… and we are supposed to accept that sentence (“I know that…”) as fact? Are we not allowed to dispute it? PO18guy is doing exactly that.
 
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