Does the high divorce rate among Christians undermine the credibility of what it teaches about dating and marriage?

[CaliLobo]

Sheeniac:

When I was away from God and Church in my Prodigal Daughter days, I loved the bad boys. Sigh… My SO is very square!

Then I’ll do what it takes to be a bad boy instead, since you just admitted square isn’t attractive. And I bet millions more women feel the same way. This helps prove my posts in other threads about the dichotomy between logical and emotional brain, and how a man must attract the emotional brain to attract a woman…

Anyway - Cal - I really don’t think you’re going to find happiness in the route you’re thinking of. The ones looking for bad boys don’t make the best GF/wife material. Nor did I find that lifestyle (away from God) particularly fulfilling.

I know people that have fallen away from church and are happier for it. And those girls might not make the best gf/wife material, but at least they’ll make good sexual experiences, and they won’t have qualms about it either…

And please do consider CBT - while I don’t think of myself as mentally ill, it gave me a new way of looking at life. It’s typically short term: 6-10 sessions, and features assignments with the therapist gently challenging you. It was worth every penny. I’m nowhere near as emotionally healthy as I’d like to be (who is?), but the therapy 4 years or so ago really helped.

Ok I’ll consider it, how much is it?

By the way, another benefit of falling away from church is that I can now support abortion rights and gay rights, and leftist principles, with no moral qualms to hold me back.

The irony is that by falling away from the church, I can support what I believe is the more Christlike, compassionate position, without any church to stop me…

 

[EasterJoy]

Then I’ll do what it takes to be a bad boy instead, since you just admitted square isn’t attractive. And I bet millions more women feel the same way. This helps prove my posts in other threads about the dichotomy between logical and emotional brain, and how a man must attract the emotional brain to attract a woman…

I know people that have fallen away from church and are happier for it. And those girls might not make the best gf/wife material, but at least they’ll make good sexual experiences, and they won’t have qualms about it either…

Ok I’ll consider it, how much is it?

By the way, another benefit of falling away from church is that I can now support abortion rights and gay rights, and leftist principles, with no moral qualms to hold me back.

The irony is that by falling away from the church, I can support what I believe is the more Christlike, compassionate position, without any church to stop me…

Christ was like us in all things but sin. If your goal is to be able to embrace a life where sin is tolerated or encouraged, then you are not looking to become more Christ-like. You’re simply striving to be more widely* liked*. Yes, some people seem to enjoy that a lot more than living a virtuous life.

I left the Church for awhile, BTW. My response to myself on coming back was a) what was I thinking and b) wow, am I fortunate to have made my way back, because many do not. I would never suggest that someone who loves God ever do it.

 

[Xantippe]

"By the way, another benefit of falling away from church is that I can now support abortion rights and gay rights, and leftist principles, with no moral qualms to hold me back.

“The irony is that by falling away from the church, I can support what I believe is the more Christlike, compassionate position, without any church to stop me…”

Cause killing babies is Christlike and compassionate. Yep.

Isn’t it a little weird that you are just enjoying the heck out of your new freedom, and yet find the time to argue with all of us about it?

 

[Estevao]

I also agree with you that the sermons of lust should be directed to women as well as men. Why do the priests/ministers do that? You should ask them. Women have just as much lust as men.
Could it be that the priests/ministers don’t know this?
.

It probably has something to do with the ministers knowing how the women would just leave if the priests/ministers started calling out their sins. They would just call him a bitter, angry misogynist who can’t get laid like everybody is doing in this thread to OP. The ministers/priests know that their livelihood is dependent on having a lot of people to put money in the collection plate every sunday, so they’re not going to rock the boat by calling out sins that might hurt women’s self esteem and actually drive them to repentance.

To the OP, coming to this leftist board called “Catholic” Answers and getting called the typical feminist canards about being a bitter, angry misogynist who can’t get laid isn’t going to help your problems. Nor is getting a laughable suggestion about providing free dinner to women like a chump just because they are women to get some “dating advice” from women who, science shows, have absolutely no clue on what turns them on (they are just going to tell you what is the politically correct thing to say). Perhaps look up MGTOW (men going their own way) or consider looking for a wife in a non-western country where the women haven’t been infected with the marxist ideology of feminism and materialism. Just don’t bother trying to reason with feminists it’s like oil and water my friend.

Plus be happy that you’ve learned your lesson OP. Women do not like men who are open to them. They have been brainwashed by hours and hours of oprah-esque feminist propaganda that this is what they are supposed to encourage, but when they get it, they find themselves viscerally disgusted. This is because men are not supposed to act like this, unnatural feminist propaganda to the contrary. We tell our emotions to God or perhaps to the one woman in our lives who is ever going to actually love us unconditionally, our mothers. When it comes to women we are to be their rock, and we can in no circumstances expect a westernized woman to accept any sign of humanity or emotion from a man without her becoming viscerally disgusted and looking for a way to end the relationship. When it comes to non-western women (this goes with my earlier suggestion), you will be much more likely to find a woman who will support you and deal with your humanity.

 

[CaliLobo]

I’m in a bit of a hot-house (college campus community in a Baptist-flavored town), but from my experience here and elsewhere, there’s a definite minority of women who go for kind, family-oriented men with big, sexy brains.

True story–one of my good friends here is the wife of a science professor. At one point, she was dating three different guys (including him) at the same time. He was the poorest of the bunch at the time. How did he win her? He was the one to ask her to marry him. It was that simple.

I don’t encourage the OP to be dating very hard right now. You’re too confused and angry at the moment to make good choices or be a good husband, but I have to say that everything you’ve said about how impossibly hard it is to date for Evangelicals is hogwash. I know so many gawky, married intellectual Protestant and Catholic male graduate students and professors, often married to very good looking women.

I hope so since brains is one of the few things I have, and people typecast me for it…

The evangelical dating scene was killed by the 2000 book I Kissed Dating Goodbye. To this day, evangelical churches tread extremely lightly with dating. Church teaching on dating is targeted toward recent repentant returners, but what about those that have been faithful all their lives and are trying to do the right thing because it is the right thing to do? I have friends just like me who were faithful all these years and have trouble with dating, because the evangelical church does not create an environment conducive to like-valued people meeting each other. Instead it gets all nosy and sets awkward rules about “courtship”…

I was in college in 2000. The ideal time for meeting women, I wasted. Of course, Berkeley isn’t known for being a target-rich environment. I should’ve gone to a funner school and gotten easier A’s with it, rather than get my GPA raped at Berkeley. I know many people my age who have been affected by that book…

vsedriver:

well you did nothing wrong. You did not mess up. Because if a woman doesn’t support you when times are tough then she doesn’t love you at all and is only using your. God was right to kick her to the curb for you…

It is no ones fault really. You two were not meant to be. Take the good that you learned from the relationship and use it toward the next one.

I thought it was poor social skills for me to bring up my personal problems so early?

what kind of edge is that? why don’t you look for a woman who wants a family and is ready to settle down and put you and her children first in her life?

In the same way women don’t want square men, I don’t want a square woman who only cares for family and children. I want to have fun in the relationship. For example, go hiking or cycling, take a surf lesson with me, dance awkwardly with me, and go on adventures together. I prefer women who aren’t afraid to be beautiful (and my ex was modest but still beautiful). I don’t want someone so **unnecessarily **goody-two-shoes and inhibited.

so you are willing to settle?

Dunno. I’m almost 33. Will I have to? Even my grandma says the beautiful women are arrogant, and I should lower my expectations. Even my Catholic friend (who’s been trying to evangelize to me for the last 5 years) has told me that beautiful women are one eternal game…

Many protestants tolerate remarriage. No, the Bible says do not take communion while in a state of mortal sin. If you leave your marriage and remarry you are in a state of mortal sin and can’t receive communion. I am divorced, I am not in a state of sin. I didn’t leave he did. I had to divorce to protect my children. I had the church’s permission to separate. But I am still married in the eyes of God and the church. I attend Mass and take the sacraments. Confession has been a genuine blessing. More people should use this healing sacrament.

Biblical basis, please? This seems like yet another teaching from the Magisterium only. It has caused well-intentioned, Christ-believing people, who divorced to escape abuse and destruction, to leave the Catholic Church. I’m sorry you’ve gone through this pain. I admire your steadfastness, but I wouldn’t suffer like this. I’m sorry if this violates CAF rules, but I’d leave the Catholic Church it it won’t let me remarry…

 

[CaliLobo]

Cause killing babies is Christlike and compassionate. Yep.

Isn’t it a little weird that you are just enjoying the heck out of your new freedom, and yet find the time to argue with all of us about it?

Don’t wish to derail the thread and make this an abortion discussion. But my position comes from my compassion toward women.

Despite my new freedom, I enjoy talking and debating.

Estevao:

It probably has something to do with the ministers knowing how the women would just leave if the priests/ministers started calling out their sins. They would just call him a bitter, angry misogynist who can’t get laid like everybody is doing in this thread to OP. The ministers/priests know that their livelihood is dependent on having a lot of people to put money in the collection plate every sunday, so they’re not going to rock the boat by calling out sins that might hurt women’s self esteem and actually drive them to repentance.

Yes! Great point. Evangelical churches are a business, after all. I know staff members who admit that working for the church is like working for a business.

And this points toward my point about feminism taking over the church…

To the OP, coming to this leftist board called “Catholic” Answers and getting called the typical feminist canards about being a bitter, angry misogynist who can’t get laid isn’t going to help your problems. Nor is getting a laughable suggestion about providing free dinner to women like a chump just because they are women to get some “dating advice” from women who, science shows, have absolutely no clue on what turns them on (they are just going to tell you what is the politically correct thing to say). Perhaps look up MGTOW (men going their own way) or consider looking for a wife in a non-western country where the women haven’t been infected with the marxist ideology of feminism and materialism. Just don’t bother trying to reason with feminists it’s like oil and water my friend.

Plus be happy that you’ve learned your lesson OP. Women do not like men who are open to them. They have been brainwashed by hours and hours of oprah-esque feminist propaganda that this is what they are supposed to encourage, but when they get it, they find themselves viscerally disgusted. This is because men are not supposed to act like this, unnatural feminist propaganda to the contrary. We tell our emotions to God or perhaps to the one woman in our lives who is ever going to actually love us unconditionally, our mothers. When it comes to women we are to be their rock, and we can in no circumstances expect a westernized woman to accept any sign of humanity or emotion from a man without her becoming viscerally disgusted and looking for a way to end the relationship. When it comes to non-western women (this goes with my earlier suggestion), you will be much more likely to find a woman who will support you and deal with your humanity.

Yeah, another great point! Definitely what women say about dating (logical brain) is different from what women want (emotional brain).

I will never share emotions with a date again. I will keep secrets, if that’s what it takes. I have a friend whose dad keeps secrets from his mom…

Maybe I’ll have to look outside the West after all. But I’m Westernized myself, and Western women are the most beautiful to me…

 

[Estevao]

Nice that we seem to agree over this. It’s a shame about the pro-choice position, but that’s not the point of this thread.

 

[ela2]

‘‘By the way, another benefit of falling away from church is that I can now support abortion rights and gay rights, and leftist principles, with no moral qualms to hold me back.’’

Didn’t you just say that you have wanted kids since you were young?

 

[Estevao]

‘‘By the way, another benefit of falling away from church is that I can now support abortion rights and gay rights, and leftist principles, with no moral qualms to hold me back.’’

No offense OP but are you trolling with this comment? Plus, no offense as well, but c’mon dude, it was three weeks. Give yourself 2 months tops and get back out there if you’re not ready right now.

 

[CaliLobo]

No offense OP but are you trolling with this comment? Plus, no offense as well, but c’mon dude, it was three weeks. Give yourself 2 months tops and get back out there if you’re not ready right now.

I will. But what’s so hurtful and frustrating about this is that the city I’m in, despite its unique mix of cultures and nifty tourist sites, has few single people. And considering my past bad luck with dating (no girlfriends in high school, college or law school, failed to find a prom date, not kissed until 22, lost virginity even later, went from age 25-30 without more than a second date), it could be years before I find another girlfriend. It doesn’t help that I’m 5’8, and Asian men aren’t seen as attractive in white society…

It’s a difficult math and history problem; that’s why I’m so upset.

Everyone I talk to who is still single agrees that it’s so hard to date here. Why don’t I date them? I’ve tried! And I don’t date men, or coworkers.

People marry and settle early here…

 

[Xantippe]

“I will never share emotions with a date again. I will keep secrets, if that’s what it takes. I have a friend whose dad keeps secrets from his mom…”

And I’m sure the friend’s mom and dad have an amazing marriage, thanks to this.

There’s necessary non-communication (for instance, NEVER tell a woman you love how hot her sister or her best friend or any other woman is), but in general, keeping secrets (when it’s information the other person has a right to know) is really toxic. For instance, I never hide any purchases from my husband (that is, by the way, a major area of spousal misbehavior) and I don’t hide any of my activities from my husband (except birthday presents). People need to be able to trust their spouses 120%, and communicating all necessary information builds trust. (Necessary information does not include a friend’s embarrassing medical condition or similar.) There’s nothing worse than knowing that one’s spouse is not being forthcoming and that there’s another shoe about to drop and not knowing exactly what it might be–love can’t survive in that environment.

By the way, there’s a very simple explanation as to why Calilobo’s Protestant pastors concentrate on male lust: they’re guys. They don’t mention female lust because 1) they don’t have much insight into female sexuality and 2) maybe they haven’t actually ever encountered female lust and think that it’s an entirely mythological entity 3) they don’t want their wives to suddenly stop having sex with them out of compunction.

 

[Xantippe]

“Asian men aren’t seen as attractive in white society…”

I personally find quite a few Asian men physically attractive, but I can’t argue with you on a societal level, as the stereotype is that Asian males are meek, monosyllabic and dorky and like video games way too much. On a societal level, there’s also a lot of poaching of Asian women by white men, which only makes your situation that much more desperate.

 

[CaliLobo]

“I will never share emotions with a date again. I will keep secrets, if that’s what it takes. I have a friend whose dad keeps secrets from his mom…”

And I’m sure the friend’s mom and dad have an amazing marriage, thanks to this.

There’s necessary non-communication (for instance, NEVER tell a woman you love how hot her sister or her best friend or any other woman is), but in general, keeping secrets (when it’s information the other person has a right to know) is really toxic. For instance, I never hide any purchases from my husband (that is, by the way, a major area of spousal misbehavior) and I don’t hide any of my activities from my husband (except birthday presents). People need to be able to trust their spouses 120%, and communicating all necessary information builds trust. (Necessary information does not include a friend’s embarrassing medical condition or similar.) There’s nothing worse than knowing that one’s spouse is not being forthcoming and that there’s another shoe about to drop and not knowing exactly what it might be–love can’t survive in that environment.

Yes, but 19 days into the relationship is way too early, and now I pay the price.

It is my male role to muster every last bit of emotional control despite my job being on the rocks that day.

Besides, when a guy shares difficulties with a girl, it has to end with, “…I’ve got it under control and everything will be alright,” to continue to show confidence. Right?? Otherwise, it would be the equivalent of a woman growing muscles and facial hair, and the attraction dies immediately.

One can fall in love, and one can fall out of love…

By the way, there’s a very simple explanation as to why Calilobo’s Protestant pastors concentrate on male lust: they’re guys. They don’t mention female lust because 1) they don’t have much insight into female sexuality and 2) maybe they haven’t actually ever encountered female lust and think that it’s an entirely mythological entity 3) they don’t want their wives to suddenly stop having sex with them out of compunction.

LOL

 

[Sheeniac]

My SO, being square, is attractive to me and I feel nothing for ‘bad boys’, My sigh was more in recognition that life can have its own twists.

I dated a Japanese guy for a year or two, FWIW. I still think that online dating would be good for you given your city.

 

[Xantippe]

“Yes, but 19 days into the relationship is way too early, and now I pay the price.”

Possibly.

“It is my male role to muster every last bit of emotional control despite my job being on the rocks that day.”

When my husband and I had known each other a shorter time than you dated your last GF, he called me up in the middle of the night (2 or 3 or 4 AM?) for emotional support. It was a weird situation, and other people might have seen it as a huge red flag, but it turned out to be a one off (doing that every week would have been a deal breaker), and my staying up to reassure him meant a lot to him at the time.

“Besides, when a guy shares difficulties with a girl, it has to end with, “…I’ve got it under control and everything will be alright,” to continue to show confidence. Right?? Otherwise, it would be the equivalent of a woman growing muscles and facial hair, and the attraction dies immediately.”

Not necessarily. You can’t fake omnipotence forever, so you might as well stop as early as you can. Bear in mind that one day, you might actually lose your job, and the woman who can’t cope with you almost losing your job is not going to be able to hack it if you really do lose it. It’s not a bad fire drill.

Despite appearances to the contrary (all the sniffling and weeping we are famous for), women are often emotionally stronger and more resilient than men. A good wife provides comfort and reassurance and counsel when her husband feels beat down by the world. We’d like some of that to come our way as well when it’s our turn, of course, but it is one of the traditional wifely services.

 

[CaliLobo]

Update: Now my grandma wants to set me up with a woman from Seoul. Historically, my parents have attempted to set me up with women from long distances like Texas and New York, but I’ve balked at them. It seems that they completely lack understanding as to why long-distance relationships don’t work. “Just send a few emails!” they say.

But this time, I can’t say no to my grandma as she’s old, and I can’t rebuff my grandparents the way I rebuff my parents.

And considering my luck is so bad, I realize, who am I to reject any opportunity of any kind, no matter how long the distance.

“Just make a few phone calls!” my grandma says.

Maybe I’m not supposed to marry the type of woman that excites me. Maybe because of all the negative stereotypes, a Korean American like me doesn’t have what it takes to attract a white woman after all, and instead I’m just supposed to stick to my race…

Maybe I’m just supposed to accept my lot in life…

Should I just try the long distance thing?

 

[Xantippe]

It’s practice.

 

[vsedriver]

The irony is that by falling away from the church, I can support what I believe is the more Christlike, compassionate position, without any church to stop me…

what compassionate position are you talking about? Is it the one where we indulge people in their sins so they can feel ‘happy’? Isn’t this the same indulgence that risks hell?

I guess I’m asking what responsibility do you feel for the souls of the women you want to sexually trifle with? Even if these women are all for being trifled with?

 

[vsedriver]

I thought it was poor social skills for me to bring up my personal problems so early?

 

[CaliLobo]

what compassionate position are you talking about? Is it the one where we indulge people in their sins so they can feel ‘happy’? Isn’t this the same indulgence that risks hell?

I guess I’m asking what responsibility do you feel for the souls of the women you want to sexually trifle with? Even if these women are all for being trifled with?

Compassionate means compassion for gays, that they should not be treated any differently for the way God created them.

Compassionate means compassion for women, that they should not have to suffer from an unwanted pregnancy, and that forcing women to bear children when they are not emotionally or financially capable to is evil.

Since I have turned from the faith, there is no soul that I have to feel responsible for. Private actions between consenting adults–no one else has any business to object or intervene.

Humans are sexual beings, and from a biological perspective, it is unhealthy to repress that part of our humanity. The only reasons we repress it are because of 1) lack of consent by an existing partner, 2) criminal law, or 3) religious teachings.

9 Now I say this to you: anyone who divorces his wife – I am not speaking of an illicit marriage – and marries another, is guilty of adultery.’

Which version are you using? The ESV (which today’s Protestants use the most says):
And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.

The NIV (which Protestants used the most in the 1990s) says:
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.