Does the high divorce rate among Christians undermine the credibility of what it teaches about dating and marriage?

[Xantippe]

“I don’t think psychotherapy works that well. I once went to a psychotherapist who would just listen to me rant and say, “What do you think?” Well dude, I want a new way of thinking, eh?”

What you’re looking for is a cognitive behavioral psychologist.

“Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a psychotherapeutic approach that addresses dysfunctional emotions, maladaptive behaviors and cognitive processes and contents through a number of goal-oriented, explicit systematic procedures. The name refers to behavior therapy, cognitive therapy, and to therapy based upon a combination of basic behavioral and cognitive principles and research. Most therapists working with patients dealing with anxiety and depression use a blend of cognitive and behavioral therapy. This technique acknowledges that there may be behaviors that cannot be controlled through rational thought. CBT is “problem focused” (undertaken for specific problems) and “action oriented” (therapist tries to assist the client in selecting specific strategies to help address those problems).[1]”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

That’s the kind of therapy that actually helps people.

 

[Xantippe]

“God knows loud and clear I want to be married.”

And God (and everybody else on the forum) knows you’re not ready to be a husband.

 

[CaliLobo]

“I don’t think psychotherapy works that well. I once went to a psychotherapist who would just listen to me rant and say, “What do you think?” Well dude, I want a new way of thinking, eh?”

What you’re looking for is a cognitive behavioral psychologist.

“Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a psychotherapeutic approach that addresses dysfunctional emotions, maladaptive behaviors and cognitive processes and contents through a number of goal-oriented, explicit systematic procedures. The name refers to behavior therapy, cognitive therapy, and to therapy based upon a combination of basic behavioral and cognitive principles and research. Most therapists working with patients dealing with anxiety and depression use a blend of cognitive and behavioral therapy. This technique acknowledges that there may be behaviors that cannot be controlled through rational thought. CBT is “problem focused” (undertaken for specific problems) and “action oriented” (therapist tries to assist the client in selecting specific strategies to help address those problems).[1]”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

That’s the kind of therapy that actually helps people.

And why are you pushing this so much? Everyone feels depressed sometimes. Is my problem really so bad to need professional help?

“God knows loud and clear I want to be married.”

And God (and everybody else on the forum) knows you’re not ready to be a husband.

Are you hurtful and judgmental, or hurtful and judgmental?

 

[underacloud]

Counseling? I’m too clever and can out-analyze their recommendations and analysis.

Yes, you’re very clever. You seem to have all the answers. A quick rebutal to anyone who poses a challenge to you.

I don’t even know why you’re here.

God knows loud and clear I want to be married.

And God no doubt knows that your attitude to Him at the moment is dependant on His granting your wish. In short, you’re holding Him to ransom.

“Give me a wife or I won’t worship you”

Someone as clever as yourself can see that this is no way to treat anyone. Would you say to your mother “give me dinner or I won’t love you any more”? I doubt it.

Perhaps God doesn’t want you to have a wife. Perhaps God wants you to get your relationship with Him right before dealing with anything else. Perhaps God has other plans that can’t be discerned right now. But you think you know best, so unless your attitude changes you may never understand what God has planned for you.

Again, I don’t even know why you’re here.

 

[mek42]

What if God wants you to be a pastor in one of the celibate traditions?

 

[Xantippe]

Calilobo said:

“And why are you pushing this so much? Everyone feels depressed sometimes. Is my problem really so bad to need professional help?”

You sound really, really, really angry and upset and you’re posting a lot. (And to be very honest, an old friend sounded A LOT like you around the time he got diagnosed with bipolar. His love life was also unsatisfactory and he also had a lot of spiritual issues.)

My MIL is a psychologist (she does cognitive behavioral stuff and helps a lot of people) and she says that everybody’s mental health can be improved. There’s nothing insulting about telling somebody to seek therapy, any more than it would be insulting to tell them to ask their doctor about something.

Calilobo said: “God knows loud and clear I want to be married.”

I replied: “And God (and everybody else on the forum) knows you’re not ready to be a husband.”

Calilobo replied: “Are you hurtful and judgmental, or hurtful and judgmental?”

Look, you’ve just told us over and over again that women avoid you like the plague and that you’ve had barely any actual relationship experience. Don’t you think it’s possible that these women who are ignoring you and dumping you see something about you that you aren’t seeing? If there’s something off-putting about your presentation, wouldn’t it save you a lot of trouble to figure out what it is? If you are perfect and women are just being unfair to you, then there’s no hope for you. But if you aren’t perfect, then there is hope. It’s a paradox, but it’s true.

 

[EasterJoy]

I don’t think psychotherapy works that well. I once went to a psychotherapist who would just listen to me rant and say, “What do you think of that?” Well dude, I want a new way of thinking, that’s why I came here, eh?

Counseling? I’m too clever and can out-analyze their recommendations and analysis. I have a few smart friends that are willing to listen to my rants, and also my mom, so they are good enough.

The Protestant church? I can predict what church members will say. “Pray and trust God, let go and let God, it wasn’t God’s will that this happen; surrender to God’s will…” And they’ll throw in an outlandish testimony that I can’t relate to. I’m sick of the Christianese, the platitudes…

Not sure Catholic and Orthodox church members can say too much different; they’ll lecture me on discerning vocations, maybe they’ll recommend Adoration and asking a few saints to pray for me. But I’ve tried that already…

I’ve already prayed to God, asked Raphael to pray for me, and prayed during Adoration. God knows loud and clear I want to be married.

Did God know loud and clear that Abraham wanted to have a son? Did God know loud and clear that the Israelites wanted to be out of that desert and into the promised land? You have to know that wanting and being ready are not the same thing.

For instance: When it comes to therapy, which do you want–“a new way of thinking” or a chance to be “too clever” and to “out-analyze”? You have to know that praying as if you were not like other men does not mean you are not just like everyone praying in every direction all around you. You are not different than us. You are one of us. You are going to be, as Abraham Lincoln put it, just about as happy or about as miserable as you decide to be.

You can’t have both. You can’t murmur and complain and get to the Promised Land. You can’t claim to have faith and yet walk off and refuse to serve God because you don’t see.

Choose, and take the consequences. Otherwise, do what you’ve been doing…which is choosing to keep getting what you’ve been getting.

 

[Michael57]

At least admit that my challenges have some merit, even if you completely disagree.

So no, I’m not taking myself hostage, since as a former Protestant my view of the Bible is no better or worse than that of the Vatican.

Everything I’ve done is failing. I’m open to new ideas. I’m willing to make almost any change, do whatever it takes. I’m even willing to join the armed forces; women like military men right??

First time you’ve ever replied to me, and no, your arguments, such as I have seen at CAF, don’t hold any merit.

You’re apparently not “open to new ideas”, as you’ve utterly rejected the protestant church and have not yet the Catholic Church, though you criticize it much.

Try going to Mass. Try RCIA. Learn a little first before you come here and make statements out of pure ignorance.

As for your ideas about the military, frankly I doubt you’d do very well with it, or last long in it with your current attitude. And I say that as an officer with over 28 years of service. Though it would likely get your educational debt reduced or eliminated. That might be worth your while financially, but I think that you’re challenged as far as moral fiber is concerned, at least by your posts at CAF. I think it may have more risk than it’s worth in your case.

So, why are you even posting here?

You are not Catholic, you hate the protestant church, and you’re p-o’d at God.

All you are is angry.

Are you posting this hot, angry messages at protestant websites too?

Somehow, I doubt it.

What is the point of your being here at all?

You’re wasting everyone’s time. Your time, and those that respond to you. You’re not Catholic or even interested in Catholicism, you hate the protestant church, and you hate God. Surely there are more productive things that you can spend your time on…

I think it’s all very sad.

Personally, if I were you, I would do something more productive with my time than what you’re doing here.

 

[ela2]

In previous posts, I’ve given you Biblical support for my positions. I’ve provided an adequate challenge to Vatican interpretation (there is no Bible verse explicitly against abortion, for example), and an adequate challenge to the validity of the authority of the Magisterium (Jesus is the Rock), and an adequate challenge to the importance of Apostolic Succession (Jesus is the High Priest forever). I’ve shown you how Protestant churches run circles around the CC when it comes to teaching, preaching, missions, and Bible reading. I’ve shown you mathematical figures on how Catholics are leaving in droves, in favor of Protestantism or nothing. This is true even in Latin culture (read Time magazine on the Latino Reformation).

At least admit that my challenges have some merit, even if you completely disagree.

So no, I’m not taking myself hostage, since as a former Protestant my view of the Bible is no better or worse than that of the Vatican.

I understand Biblical teachings on chastity just fine, and I regret practicing them because I feel it’s gotten me nowhere better than those that lived lives of sin, especially in the area of dating.

It’s not that I went down the right path expecting something in return. It’s just that I don’t want to suffer anymore, and I’m no longer seeing the relevance and validity of church teachings about dating, sex, and marriage. I’d rather live a life of sin if it means more happiness.

But I’m still open to finding a good Catholic woman that loves me, as long as she understands it will take nothing short of a miracle to agree with the Vatican on abortion, gay rights, and contraception…

From reading the tragic threads on CAF, I don’t see evidence of that…

For example, classical piano hasn’t attracted me a single woman, so it’s time for a change. Classical music is beautiful but too esoteric for most. That is why I’ve told my guitar teacher I want to learn everything non-classical. Classical music can be too serious. I wanna show that I don’t take life too seriously.

I am taking dance lessons to show I am not uptight, and also that I don’t take life seriously. They also say woman subtly believe dance skills symbolize your performance in bed…

I’ve been (officially) single all of my life, except 19 days. (The official part of the relationship was 19 days, and I’ve had other non-official lady friends, but I can count them with two fingers, and I’m 32.)

I’ve wanted to be married since I was a kid. I’m tired of being single and I want to change it. Is it so wrong to feel that way??

Everything I’ve done is failing. I’m open to new ideas. I’m willing to make almost any change, do whatever it takes. I’m even willing to join the armed forces; women like military men right??

I decided I will not reply to your posts but at the same time I feel this may help, maybe it makes a difference. If you don’t like it please ignore it.

It is not normal for a kid to want to get married. If I were you I would seek help as I think there are a lot of hurt and pain from past problems, lack of love and feelings of not accepted (which in a kid could be received from his parents) which have not been dealt with in a healthy way.

You are only 32! Heal yourself, it is your duty to yourself.

 

[Xantippe]

“It is not normal for a kid to want to get married.”

My 8-year-old son wants a family, but I strongly suspect that he’s most interested in having children, as opposed to a wife. (His big sister wants nephews and nieces and does not herself want to have kids, as she’s heard it hurts, and she’s been encouraging him.) Our 8-year-old is kind of worried about the getting-a-wife part. We’ve told him we’ll help with that when the time comes. I think he’ll do just fine.

 

[Lorelei12]

CaliLobo, I remember your other post about your breakup. What I don’t remember is that your relationship was only 19 days. Your reaction to it and continued anguish is way out of proportion to the situation. I agree with those who have suggested professional counseling.

You have all these plans to change things about yourself- some of them good, but most of them won’t help a bit. Feigning interest in playing the guitar in an attempt to make yourself more “interesting”? You’re focusing on all the wrong things. This woman did not dump you because you didn’t play the guitar. You had to convince her to go out with you to begin with, and even then only for 19 days. She was never into you.

Your bitterness and self-centeredness is off-putting to any woman, Christian or not. One question- how is it working for you? Do you feel happier now that you have “rejected” God? Have you gotten any more dates since beginning your new “interesting” lifestyle? Will you tell your dates that you only expect marriage to last a few years, and that you think spending your whole lifetime with them is unrealistic? If you really feel this way, then you’ll get the type of woman you deserve.

 

[Xantippe]

“CaliLobo, I remember your other post about your breakup. What I don’t remember is that your relationship was only 19 days. Your reaction to it and continued anguish is way out of proportion to the situation. I agree with those who have suggested professional counseling.”

Yes. I think that’s the explanation for why she seemed “almost perfect.” With any flesh-and-blood woman you dated for a longer stretch of time, you’d wind up with a list of at least minor imperfections (takes too long to get ready, talks to her mom too much, has trouble putting down her cell phone, doesn’t put things away, doesn’t cook, wants more kids than you do, is still friends with all her old boyfriends, forgets her purse at restaurants, always wants a bite of your dessert, etc.). Anybody who seems “almost perfect” is somebody that is 1) either too good for you or 2) you don’t know that well.

“You have all these plans to change things about yourself- some of them good, but most of them won’t help a bit. Feigning interest in playing the guitar in an attempt to make yourself more “interesting”? You’re focusing on all the wrong things. This woman did not dump you because you didn’t play the guitar. You had to convince her to go out with you to begin with, and even then only for 19 days. She was never into you.”

Yes, or she was a little bit into you, and then she discovered a deal-breaker.

“Your bitterness and self-centeredness is off-putting to any woman, Christian or not. One question- how is it working for you? Do you feel happier now that you have “rejected” God? Have you gotten any more dates since beginning your new “interesting” lifestyle? Will you tell your dates that you only expect marriage to last a few years, and that you think spending your whole lifetime with them is unrealistic? If you really feel this way, then you’ll get the type of woman you deserve.”

Yep.

 

[ela2]

“It is not normal for a kid to want to get married.”

My 8-year-old son wants a family, but I strongly suspect that he’s most interested in having children, as opposed to a wife. (His big sister wants nephews and nieces and does not herself want to have kids, as she’s heard it hurts, and she’s been encouraging him.) Our 8-year-old is kind of worried about the getting-a-wife part. We’ve told him we’ll help with that when the time comes. I think he’ll do just fine.

A child wanting a child of his/her own is cute but wanting a wife (companionship, love, etc.) so desperately since forever as in OP’s case could be that he hasn’t received much love.

When my brother was little he was also asking our mom where one can buy more babies from.

 

[maryjk]

CaliLobo, I remember your other post about your breakup. What I don’t remember is that your relationship was only 19 days. Your reaction to it and continued anguish is way out of proportion to the situation. I agree with those who have suggested professional counseling.

19 days? All of this anguish over someone he dated for 19 days???

Advice?

Grow up, OP. You are acting like a child that, when he isn’t winning, he leaves and takes his toys with him.

You sound selfish and self important. With this attitude? It isn’t surprising that women aren’t interested in you. Women aren’t looking for someone that plays the guitar. They aren’t looking for someone that can be a fake. They don’t want someone that turns his back when things don’t go their way.

So stop pretending to be a nice guy. Actually become a nice guy. Be a guy that someone can count on. Be a guy that is there, through thick and thin. And instead of praying for a wife, pray you can be a good husband.

THEN see what happens.

 

[Xantippe]

Calilobo,

Another option that occurs to me is that you may have poor social skills. (Not being mean here–one of my kids went to a social skills circle for a couple years.) It could be something as simple as you not making eye contact with women, them thinking that you are staring at their chest, and then writing you off as being a big pervert. That could easily happen and could explain your epic, repeated failures with the female sex.

That’s all the more reason for talking to a therapist, particularly one with a specialization in social issues. (One of my kids has been seeing a psychologist since she was a 1st grader for autism spectrum stuff, which of course has a major social dimension. She started out going every two weeks, and now we’re down to every month or six weeks.)

 

[mek42]

19 days? All of this anguish over someone he dated for 19 days???

Advice?

Grow up, OP. You are acting like a child that, when he isn’t winning, he leaves and takes his toys with him.

You sound selfish and self important. With this attitude? It isn’t surprising that women aren’t interested in you. Women aren’t looking for someone that plays the guitar. They aren’t looking for someone that can be a fake. They don’t want someone that turns his back when things don’t go their way.

So stop pretending to be a nice guy. Actually become a nice guy. Be a guy that someone can count on. Be a guy that is there, through thick and thin. And instead of praying for a wife, pray you can be a good husband.

THEN see what happens.

If he wasn’t raised right, how should he accomplish this as an adult? Some concrete suggestions would be helpful.

I myself wasn’t raised right and it is difficult sorting through the chaos of life with only one example of what not to do and precious little in the what is good to do example category.

 

[maryjk]

If he wasn’t raised right, how should he accomplish this as an adult? Some concrete suggestions would be helpful.

I myself wasn’t raised right and it is difficult sorting through the chaos of life with only one example of what not to do and precious little in the what is good to do example category.

The OP doesn’t want suggestions.

As he has said, is “he too clever and can out-analyze their recommendations and analysis.”

He doesn’t need the Protestant church because “I can predict what church members will say. “Pray and trust God, let go and let God, it wasn’t God’s will that this happen; surrender to God’s will…” And they’ll throw in an outlandish testimony that I can’t relate to. I’m sick of the Christianese, the platitudes…”

And Catholics? He says, “not sure Catholic and Orthodox church members can say too much different; they’ll lecture me on discerning vocations, maybe they’ll recommend Adoration and asking a few saints to pray for me. But I’ve tried that already…”

SO as I said, the OP doesn’t want ideas of what to do. He doesn’t really want to solve his problem. Nope, he just wants to rant, well, rant and tell us that God doesn’t listen and he is giving up on God.

My advice? Grow up.

 

[manualman]

Nothing is less attractive than desperation. Brad Pitt couldn’t get a date if he came off the way you do in this thread. I don’t say that to be mean, just to shake you up.

You’ve built women up into an idol that you worship more than God. You’re convinced that an intimate relationship is the only way you can be happy in life and that nothing else matters if you don’t have that. Women probably sense that in you and rightly run like hell. Who wants that sort of pressure? You’ve tried to use God as a means to GET the idol you really desire and are resentful that it hasn’t worked as planned. No matter how awesome a woman you might manage to attract and marry, this worldview is going to be a disaster for you. Mark my words.

But it’s also fairly obvious that you’re not here for advice, you’re just venting about how Christianity is a poor tool for acquiring a spouse who will fulfill your existence ( true enough, since there is no such thing! ). Since you’re set on going off and learning the reasons for morality the hard way, just remember in the future that the people who were mean to you and told you not to do it, warned you it would turn out that way. Remember that when you’re in ruins and have made a huge mess of your life and some woman’s. Jesus always has room for repentant sinners, even ones that should have known better.

 

[The_Bucket]

I
Counseling? I’m too clever and can out-analyze their recommendations and analysis.

Oh my good gracious.

This whole thread would be hilarious if it weren’t so terribly, terribly sad. I think Xantippe has hit the mark with two responses. The first being that God knows what you want, you know what you want and we’re all aware that you’re not remotely ready for what you want. Or at least what you think you want. The second is the part about 19 days.

Bro.

Bro.

BRO

BRO

Agonizing over a 19-day relationship? You are aware that 19 days does not make a relationship, right? You’re 32 years old and you’re acting like an angsty adolescent. You should seek a therapist for that reason alone. You are not a well-adjusted adult and people can sense that pretty quickly. Trust me, I know all about not being a well-adjusted adult since I qualify!

I’m about a year and a half into the process of re-engineering everything in my life and I’m aware that it’s going to take at least that long again to catch up to where I should be at age 28. I’m probably around what your average 20-year-old is like, emotionally anyway. Which is actually an improvement since in the spring of last year I was more like a 14-year-old. Worst of all… I was dragging a wife and two kids down with me and making them terribly unsteady.

I assure you that if you got married right now, your marriage would implode in fairly short order. And then where would you be? Be grateful that you are not presently married and work on, as Xantippe suggested, growing the you-know-what up. Now.

 

[EasterJoy]

In previous posts, I’ve given you Biblical support for my positions. I’ve provided an adequate challenge to Vatican interpretation (there is no Bible verse explicitly against abortion, for example), and an adequate challenge to the validity of the authority of the Magisterium (Jesus is the Rock), and an adequate challenge to the importance of Apostolic Succession (Jesus is the High Priest forever). I’ve shown you how Protestant churches run circles around the CC when it comes to teaching, preaching, missions, and Bible reading. I’ve shown you mathematical figures on how Catholics are leaving in droves, in favor of Protestantism or nothing. This is true even in Latin culture (read Time magazine on the Latino Reformation).

At least admit that my challenges have some merit, even if you completely disagree.

So no, I’m not taking myself hostage, since as a former Protestant my view of the Bible is no better or worse than that of the Vatican.

Just to clarify: There isn’t a single “Protestant” interpretation of the Bible. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of Protestant interpretations of the Bible. You do not have to convince us that the Protestants are capable of running in every sort of circle.

How you can read the New Testament and come away with the idea that the believers who grasp and hold on to the truth are going to form a majority of the population when all is said and done, I have no idea. Whatever impression you get by reading the Gospels, you have to be totally asleep not to realize that the opinions of the mob and the opinions that fluctuate with fashion and the problems that seem to be on the horizon on a particular day are always to be suspected. If that theme has never leaped out at you, you need to re-take your Lit 101 courses.