Does the high divorce rate among Christians undermine the credibility of what it teaches about dating and marriage?

[Michael57]

I don’t think psychotherapy works that well. I once went to a psychotherapist who would just listen to me rant and say, “What do you think of that?” Well dude, I want a new way of thinking, that’s why I came here, eh?

Counseling? I’m too clever and can out-analyze their recommendations and analysis. I have a few smart friends that are willing to listen to my rants, and also my mom, so they are good enough.

The Protestant church? I can predict what church members will say. “Pray and trust God, let go and let God, it wasn’t God’s will that this happen; surrender to God’s will…” And they’ll throw in an outlandish testimony that I can’t relate to. I’m sick of the Christianese, the platitudes…

Not sure Catholic and Orthodox church members can say too much different; they’ll lecture me on discerning vocations, maybe they’ll recommend Adoration and asking a few saints to pray for me. But I’ve tried that already…

I’ve already prayed to God, asked Raphael to pray for me, and prayed during Adoration. God knows loud and clear I want to be married.

Well, perhaps I have misjudged based on what you posted prior to this. For that I apologize.

If you’re trying to find another way, other than the path you’ve followed up to this point, have you gone through RCIA as an inquirer into the faith?

I don’t mean as a convert, but as someone who is simply learning more about the Catholic faith?

Perhaps you should ask a priest about attending as an inquirer only. And maybe talking with a priest about your issues with your ex-girlfriend, your job, and your Protestant experience may give you a better perspective.

And are you really being drawn to Catholicism? That’s something only you can answer for yourself. Speaking only for myself, it took me a very long time to come to the Catholic faith.

If RCIA is not for you, perhaps you should look at the Compendium of the Catholic Catechism. It is a good resource to examine the basis for the doctrines and dogma of the Catholic Church. One book I found helpful was “Four Witnesses” by Rod Bennett. It gave me the perspective and thoughts of the Early Church Fathers.

If you have a desire to discuss this further you can PM me, and I will try to answer or respond as best as I am able, as a layman. Without platitudes (hopefully).

I will continue to pray for God’s guidance and grace in your life. And I hope you keep praying too.

 

[holyrood]

I… maybe they’ll recommend Adoration and asking a few saints to pray for me. But I’ve tried that already…

I’ve already prayed to God, asked Raphael to pray for me, and prayed during Adoration. God knows loud and clear I want to be married.

First, God, Raphael, the saints…they’re not the butler, or vending machines. You don’t just tell them what you want and they hand it to you. St. Monica, I believe, prayed for something like 30 years for her son. Sometimes, what God wants is patience, trust, and perseverance. Sometimes, those are the things we really need, rather than what we’re asking for.

And believe me, I’m right there with you, not being handed any of the things I pray for. I know it’s not easy, but I also know I’m dealing with someone who knows more than I do.

And second:

I accept that I’m not entitled to anything and God owes me nothing. It doesn’t mean I have to believe that he cares. It doesn’t mean I need to worship him.

I’ll be Catholic as long as they accept that I’m pro-choice and support contraception and gay rights…

Kind of sounds like you’re laying down terms for God. Telling Him what’s what, and that you’ll ‘worship’ him if He gets Himself straight with you and kicks His Church into shape according to your will, first. Try a little humility first, and then pray again.

 

[Starrsmother]

Actually, based on the comments on requiring the Catholic Church to accept contraception etc in order for him to honor the Catholic faith with his presence, I’d say it’s about time to end the discussion. He has no sincere interest in being Catholic–he simply wants someone to argue with him about why he isn’t! Yawn…

 

[PaulinVA]

**CaliLobo, **One word.

Humility.

Take an interest in others. Do some service, like volunteer in a homeless shelter or something. Become someone you’d want to be friends with.

The Catholic ethos is all about embracing who you are, engaging in sincere introspection, amending one’s life, and living for God, not for you.

 

[Sheeniac]

I did some thinking on this last night before I went to sleep.

One issue you have with therapy is that when you went, you didn’t get the feedback that you need. That is frustrating! Someone else suggested that you go for CBT. Such therapists are good with feedback (personal experience talking here!) but the goal is to revamp your thinking since your thought patterns are causing the problem. But is that the root cause in your case? While I think it’s a significant factor, I have another suggestion for you.

So why not set up a couple of dates with the sole goal being honest feedback? It might take reaching out to 30-40 women who have online ads, but it might work. Offer dinner with no strings attached, and tell them that you are interested in improving your dating skills and would like some honest feedback. Address the fact that you are not a nutcase or a stalker, and you haven’t chosen them because you think they’d make a soulmate and you want to be in a relationship with them, but rather the ad made them sound like a normal, well adjusted person.

I would shoot for at least 3-4 dinner dates (just in case you get a wacko) and you might walk away with some valuable insight into how you are coming across. Or, you might put out an ad yourself.

If that seems like too much effort, I think a therapist (CBT) might be able to get you into a group therapy that would help.

I’m only suggesting this after reading that the prior relationship was 19 days. That’s less than 3 weeks and I can’t imagine that you saw the woman that frequently. I’m leaning towards saying that you may have come across too strong too soon, based on the fact that you felt she left when you showed a weakness by sharing something that got you upset. Personally, at less than 3 weeks, I would consider that too be too much sharing.

You’ve gotten some very strong feedback here, but I think it might be because you came across as argumentative. Please consider all that you read here as sincere advice and feedback.

 

[CaliLobo]

And God no doubt knows that your attitude to Him at the moment is dependant on His granting your wish. In short, you’re holding Him to ransom.

“Give me a wife or I won’t worship you”

Someone as clever as yourself can see that this is no way to treat anyone. Would you say to your mother “give me dinner or I won’t love you any more”? I doubt it.

Perhaps God doesn’t want you to have a wife. Perhaps God wants you to get your relationship with Him right before dealing with anything else. Perhaps God has other plans that can’t be discerned right now. But you think you know best, so unless your attitude changes you may never understand what God has planned for you.

Again, I don’t even know why you’re here.

mek42:

What if God wants you to be a pastor in one of the celibate traditions?

I know that my mom loves me. But with God, I feel like he doesn’t care.

If God didn’t want me to have a wife, I wish he’d at least tell me so I can find freedom from this issue.

Xantippe:

My MIL is a psychologist (she does cognitive behavioral stuff and helps a lot of people) and she says that everybody’s mental health can be improved. There’s nothing insulting about telling somebody to seek therapy, any more than it would be insulting to tell them to ask their doctor about something.

Sorry, but I just feel that the mental health industry is profit-driven, and mental disorders are overdiagnosed. I can definitely get a diagnosis of a mental disorder if I shop around. That doesn’t mean that my condition warrants professional help.

ela2:

It is not normal for a kid to want to get married. If I were you I would seek help as I think there are a lot of hurt and pain from past problems, lack of love and feelings of not accepted (which in a kid could be received from his parents) which have not been dealt with in a healthy way.

Xantippe is right. What I meant was that I knew I wanted children from an early age. And of course, I grew up with values, so I knew children should be within marriage. I do want a son to continue the family line. It’s old fashioned and I don’t expect Westerners to understand. If that’s selfish, so be it.

My parents were loving to me when I was growing up. In the last 10 years, I’ve received a lot of negativity from them, though, to the point that I’ve accused them of verbal abuse. I’ve also had to listen to my mom rant; I’ve felt like her boyfriend at times. I’ve talked about it with my mom and we’re good now, but with my dad I’d rather keep my distance for now. He calls me his “proud son [sic]”, but only because I’ve found a job. It’s conditional…

Lorelei12:

CaliLobo, I remember your other post about your breakup. What I don’t remember is that your relationship was only 19 days. Your reaction to it and continued anguish is way out of proportion to the situation…

You have all these plans to change things about yourself- some of them good, but most of them won’t help a bit. Feigning interest in playing the guitar in an attempt to make yourself more “interesting”? You’re focusing on all the wrong things. This woman did not dump you because you didn’t play the guitar. You had to convince her to go out with you to begin with, and even then only for 19 days. She was never into you.

Your bitterness and self-centeredness is off-putting to any woman, Christian or not.

The Bucket:

…We’re all aware that you’re not remotely ready for what you want. Or at least what you think you want. The second is the part about 19 days.
…
Agonizing over a 19-day relationship? You are aware that 19 days does not make a relationship, right? You’re 32 years old and you’re acting like an angsty adolescent. You should seek a therapist for that reason alone. You are not a well-adjusted adult and people can sense that pretty quickly…

My disproportionate reaction to it is because of the scarcity of single women where I live, and because it took THIS LONG for me to have my first official gf (though I’ve had 2 unofficial gf’s before).

And if she was never into me, then I question my ability to attract ANY woman. If all of you guys are saying I’m selfish, have psychological problems, need counseling, need to grow up, need to be humble, lack social skills, and all that, then I must be unattractive as hell. I don’t even know where to begin.

I fully accept that maybe I’m not ready and maybe I have a problem that I don’t even know about. Maybe I’m not even cut out for it…

Honestly, it’s overwhelming. It’s so tiring to think about it, but I keep thinking about it, and I don’t even know what to do about it anymore…

And who says my interest in guitar is fake?

Lorelei:

One question- how is it working for you? Do you feel happier now that you have “rejected” God? Have you gotten any more dates since beginning your new “interesting” lifestyle? Will you tell your dates that you only expect marriage to last a few years, and that you think spending your whole lifetime with them is unrealistic? If you really feel this way, then you’ll get the type of woman you deserve.

Get back to me in a few months. I’ll need a few months to adjust my lifestyle after 20+ years of Christian culture. I don’t have friends in this town anymore (I quit my church and I don’t hang out with coworkers), and I gotta find new friends. I am joining a kickball league to meet new people, and hope to meet people in group dance lessons.

It’s nice to have freedom to drink, smoke, curse, and do whatever I want for now, however. It’s nice to know I have sexual freedom, but then again, with all these problems you say I have, I won’t be taking advantage any time soon.

For now, I’m wondering who I can buy the “medical” herb from…

No I won’t tell dates about my beliefs about the length of marriage. I’m not that socially inept. Or am I?

 

[CaliLobo]

Sheeniac:

So why not set up a couple of dates with the sole goal being honest feedback?..

I’m only suggesting this after reading that the prior relationship was 19 days. That’s less than 3 weeks and I can’t imagine that you saw the woman that frequently. I’m leaning towards saying that you may have come across too strong too soon, based on the fact that you felt she left when you showed a weakness by sharing something that got you upset. Personally, at less than 3 weeks, I would consider that too be too much sharing.

That’s an interesting idea.

For the record, the official part was 19 days but we talked a month before that, for two hours a day every day, and dates twice a week.

In that time I discovered many flaws about her. I know there’s no perfect. But it was still love at second sight.

And yes, it’s a HARD lesson learned. I want to share so much with a gf but I know I need self-control.

I regret my mistake so much…

 

[CaliLobo]

First, God, Raphael, the saints…they’re not the butler, or vending machines. You don’t just tell them what you want and they hand it to you. St. Monica, I believe, prayed for something like 30 years for her son. Sometimes, what God wants is patience, trust, and perseverance. Sometimes, those are the things we really need, rather than what we’re asking for.

And believe me, I’m right there with you, not being handed any of the things I pray for. I know it’s not easy, but I also know I’m dealing with someone who knows more than I do.

And second:

Kind of sounds like you’re laying down terms for God. Telling Him what’s what, and that you’ll ‘worship’ him if He gets Himself straight with you and kicks His Church into shape according to your will, first. Try a little humility first, and then pray again.

I’m just tired of walking in faith. A few days ago I wanted to fight God. Now I want to sit down and take a break. I’ve run out of patience, trust, and perseverance. I know God doesn’t owe me a thing, but I want to date and get married.

I wish God never let me meet her if he knew it would end up in so much grief.

I don’t want to suffer in the name of faith anymore. I want happiness, even if I have to reject God to have it. Is this so selfish to ask?

I need to figure out how to meet someone else.

It’s all I can say, I’m going in circles and I’m tired…

Michael57:

If you’re trying to find another way, other than the path you’ve followed up to this point, have you gone through RCIA as an inquirer into the faith?

I don’t mean as a convert, but as someone who is simply learning more about the Catholic faith?

Considering it, but it will take a miracle for me to understand why only the Vatican’s interpretations are legit.

For now, the idea of going to a rock and roll evangelical church disgusts me.

 

[Trigonometric]

About the financial situation: Looking at tuition for any respectable law school it’s become obvious to me that debt, is, unfortunately, a normal part of law school- so you’re not in an unusually bad boat. If your gov’t job is reliable and has decent pay, the debt will eventually be paid down. If not, consider looking for a job in some firm. If you had an engineering or hard science degree for your undergrad, consider patent law. It has a reputation for solid pay and reasonable hours.

I don’t want to suffer in the name of faith anymore. I want happiness, even if I have to reject God to have it. Is this so selfish to ask?

Regardless of the selfishness or not, this doesn’t seem like sound reasoning. Keep in mind we’re all going to die eventually, and eternal happiness is the most important thing to be concerned with.

 

[holyrood]

I’m just tired of walking in faith. A few days ago I wanted to fight God. Now I want to sit down and take a break. I’ve run out of patience, trust, and perseverance. I know God doesn’t owe me a thing, but I want to date and get married.

I wish God never let me meet her if he knew it would end up in so much grief.

I don’t want to suffer in the name of faith anymore. I want happiness, even if I have to reject God to have it. Is this so selfish to ask?

I need to figure out how to meet someone else.

It’s all I can say, I’m going in circles and I’m tired…

I very much understand. In the last 8 years, I’ve had a lot thrown at me. Even on top of a lifetime of dealing with alcoholic parents and the prior 15+ years of a bad marriage. A recent incident with my nephew was nearly the last straw. I felt exactly as you do. I was lucky to have a friend to remind me several times that my faith is worthless if I’m only in it to get rewards from God.

One thing that has kept me in my faith is what the apostles said to Jesus: Where else would we go? You’ve already ruled out other faiths. You know simply turning your back on God is not going to make your life miraculously get better.

I wish I had anything more helpful to say, but can only offer that you’re not walking this road alone. Many of us have felt and sometimes feel the same way.

 

[Xantippe]

“It’s nice to have freedom to drink, smoke, curse, and do whatever I want for now, however.”

You know, smoking is going to be the last nail in the coffin for your dating career, aside from the whole “cancer” thing. Non-smokers generally can’t stand smokers. The odor is simply unspeakable. Blech–the very thought of kissing a smoker!

The funny thing is, Catholics don’t think (moderate) drinking is a big deal. As Belloc wrote:

Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s always laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!

(I’m personally 99% a non-drinker, being from a long line of Swedish alcoholics, but I don’t grudge other people some moderate indulgence.)

 

[Michael57]

Considering it, but it will take a miracle for me to understand why only the Vatican’s interpretations are legit.

For now, the idea of going to a rock and roll evangelical church disgusts me.

I’m not suggesting you do anything other than learn what the Catholic Church believes, and the CCC will show you the support for it (if you follow the references).

Your choosing to follow is up to you. At least you will see an alternative to what you’ve been participating in, which you say you no longer care to continue.

Really, it’s up to you.

And miracles, at least small ones that I have seen since I became Catholic, do occur. They could happen in your life too.

 

[vsedriver]

My question is, does the fact that the divorce rate among Christians equals that among nonbelievers prove that the Church, despite all the stuff it teaches on this topic (which I have described above), does NOT have adequate or credible teachings or answers to provide to today’s people, when it comes to dating and marriage?

no, it means people are sinners.

Why follow church teaching when the likelihood of success or failure is the same??

do you judge your success or failure by what others are doing? or do you judge it by how well you follow God’s will?

I regret following what I now realize are imperfect, incorrect, man-made church teachings.

and you have evidence of this? personally I prefer to follow the Christ teachings of Christ’s church. They are hard but let’s face it, if it was easy everyone would be on the fast track to heaven. Even Jesus said it would be hard to follow him and that the door to the kingdom of heaven is narrow. So basically you want to quit being a good guy because you feel only the bad guys get any.

I should’ve just partied and explored my sexuality more. After all, humans are sexual beings, and sexuality is normal right?

so are animals. so let’s see what is so wonderful about exploring your sexuality AKA fooling around with the opposite sex.

A. emotional investment that doesn’t pay off because of a lack of a life commitment. That’s always fun.

B. children born out of wedlock and will always be the fifth wheel when mom and dad find other spouses or will never have the natural human right to know a mom and a dad home. but it does keep the shrinks busy. Or they will be terminated by mommy prior to birth.

C. The ever popular venereal disease of the week, month or lifetime. Some of which can be terminal or cause major body organ failure and even sterility. And some of which are becoming more and more difficult to treat.

Of course, I was too socially awkward back then…

I hate to break you bubble but sex won’t fix that either.

So get on your knees and thank God for saving you from your ‘perfect woman’. He obviously knew that this woman would not be the right one for you. Now what you got from this relationship is what type of lady you like. So now you start looking. Have you let your friends know you are seeking a future wife? Friends are amazing at matchmaking.

I was surprised that my brother, an overweight balding school teacher pushing 40, found his wife on eHarmony.com. I kid you not! she is slender and pretty and a college professor.

Give your life to God and let him decide what is best for you. You’re still trying to run the show. With in one year of giving my life into God’s hands I found my husband. I left it to God to decide if I should have a marital vocation or a religious vocation. I was married for 23 years. Then my husband left. I was devastated. How could God be so cruel by giving me a man to love and have children with and then have him leave?

I now believe God did it to benefit me. That my husband was no longer a good influence on our family life. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt and that I wish it had never happened. but first and foremost I trust God with my life. I accept the tough stuff and rejoice in the fun stuff. I am sacramentally married so I live basically like a nun. No dating, can’t remarry.

So get back on track and turn your life over to God and be patient. Let him use you as he will. Do not seek to be happy on earth, but rather seek to do God’s will for in that way you will find happiness not only on earth but in heave too.

 

[vsedriver]

Y
Trust me, she was as perfect to me as a woman can get. I would even say that “God provided her to me”. But I messed up by near-crying to her about almost getting fired from work, and asking her if she’d still be with me. I know now that I gotta keep my mouth shut, and even keep secrets, if that’s what it takes to keep a woman.

well you did nothing wrong. You did not mess up. Because if a woman doesn’t support you when times are tough then she doesn’t love you at all and is only using your. God was right to kick her to the curb for you. Marriage requires two people to be able to lean on each other through thick and thin. A lot of people aren’t comfortable giving that much to another. We live in the ‘me’ generation.

You say I don’t want women that want bad boys. But I prefer women that have some edge…

what kind of edge is that? why don’t you look for a woman who wants a family and is ready to settle down and put you and her children first in her life?

I’ve been single for life. I’m tired of it, and I’ll do almost anything to change it.

desperate people usually make really stupid mistakes.

You ask if I’d be happy if she married me and then left me. Honestly, in this fallen age in which there are no economic incentives to remain married, and in which a woman can divorce a man for any reason, I’ll be happy to be married 10 years. How can I expect much more in this fallen world?

so you are willing to settle?

If God doesn’t want to provide a girlfriend/wife for me, that’s fine. But I don’t need to worship him in return. I’ve decided I’ll be happier as an agnostic with a girlfriend than as a single Christian.

no, you’re right, you don’t need to worship God in order to get the things you want. God isn’t Santa Claus. You need to worship God because HE’S GOD. I sense you don’t have a full comprehension of who God is and what it means to have a relationship with him.

If God wants to play with my mind by letting me love her and then taking her away, then he is not a good God.

God’s sole involvement with your relationship with this woman is that he created you both. Everything else was done by you two based on free will. She didn’t love you enough and that flaw was hers, not God’s and not yours. She was not the perfect woman you thought she was. The truth is that love is blind. It really does alter our perceptions of other people. We smooth over the rough spots and soften the darkness in the cracks so as to not notice.

I’m not railing against her because it’s not her fault; it’s mine for messing it up.

It is no ones fault really. You two were not meant to be. Take the good that you learned from the relationship and use it toward the next one.

Many Catholics think Protestants tolerate divorce. They don’t. Divorce is a sin, but it can be forgiven and the Bible allows it in cases of unfaithfulness. The Bible doesn’t say that one must get an annulment to receive Communion again, and the Catholic annulment procedure might be good in theory, but is in effect a tolerance of divorce. I’ll leave it at that for now.

Many protestants tolerate remarriage. No, the Bible says do not take communion while in a state of mortal sin. If you leave your marriage and remarry you are in a state of mortal sin and can’t receive communion. I am divorced, I am not in a state of sin. I didn’t leave he did. I had to divorce to protect my children. I had the church’s permission to separate. But I am still married in the eyes of God and the church. I attend Mass and take the sacraments. Confession has been a genuine blessing. More people should use this healing sacrament.

 

[mek42]

Regarding the student loans, assume ng you’re American, look into IBR and the public service debt forgiveness program. Ten years of reduced payments and the balance is forgiven tax free. Don’t mess up your job.

 

[Xantippe]

My MIL, who is Eastern European, says “There’s a mate for every monster.” (It rhymes in Polish.)

I was thinking about our circle. There’s a fat guy with bad skin, but he has a lovely personality and he’s married. Then there’s my husband, who is shy, but kind, family-oriented, brilliant and passionate about his interests, and I’m married to him. Being that we live in an academic setting, I know a large number of men who are 1) married and 2) have well below average social skills.

One interesting thing here is that the whole “bad boy” thing doesn’t exist at all in our circle, as far as I can tell. I remember being thrilled by the good-looking bad boy in 7th grade, but to do justice to myself, I was 12 at the time. I’ve grown up since. “Bad boys” only appeal to women with bad judgment, which is actually a very helpful sorting mechanism if you don’t want a wife with bad judgment.

 

[Xantippe]

Generalizing, I think good, family-oriented women are more than happy to take a guy out of the scratch-and-dent bin if he has at least some good features (smart, kind, professionally successful, etc.). There’s a science professor on campus who is very socially impaired (if he’s not on the autism spectrum, I’ll eat my hat), but he is a sweet guy and has a very sweet, empathetic girl friend (judging from what I can see). She’s chubby and has a poor complexion, but she’s otherwise very cute.

Note the importance here of having realistic expectations. If the socially impaired guy was simply making a bee-line toward the prettiest girl in the room, he’d be striking out every time. I’m not telling the OP for settling for a woman who isn’t attractive to him, but if everybody only had the time of day for the best looking person in the room, 90% of singles would die alone.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m in a bit of a hot-house (college campus community in a Baptist-flavored town), but from my experience here and elsewhere, there’s a definite minority of women who go for kind, family-oriented men with big, sexy brains.

True story–one of my good friends here is the wife of a science professor. At one point, she was dating three different guys (including him) at the same time. He was the poorest of the bunch at the time. How did he win her? He was the one to ask her to marry him. It was that simple.

I don’t encourage the OP to be dating very hard right now. You’re too confused and angry at the moment to make good choices or be a good husband, but I have to say that everything you’ve said about how impossibly hard it is to date for Evangelicals is hogwash. I know so many gawky, married intellectual Protestant and Catholic male graduate students and professors, often married to very good looking women.

 

[Xantippe]

Sorry for going on and on, but I have one more anecdote. Here’s how I met my husband:

I was at a Catholic study group on the catechism for the first time, and there was this REALLY smart guy who was saying very interesting stuff. I said to myself, I’ve got to meet this guy, and went straight over to him after the meeting to quote something to him from a book I’d read. Well, the rest is history–we were married within the year.

 

[Sheeniac]

Xantippe - Fantastic posts!

When I was away from God and Church in my Prodigal Daughter days, I loved the bad boys. Sigh… My SO is very square!

Anyway - Cal - I really don’t think you’re going to find happiness in the route you’re thinking of. The ones looking for bad boys don’t make the best GF/wife material. Nor did I find that lifestyle (away from God) particularly fulfilling.

Once you’ve come to terms with your situation, perhaps you should try CatholicMatch or the Christian dating site. I met my SO on match.com but stressed in my post that I was a serious Catholic looking for the same.

In any event, I think you need to work out your anger before getting involved / dating anyone. It may be a turn off when someone can sense it, even if you are hiding it.

And please do consider CBT - while I don’t think of myself as mentally ill, it gave me a new way of looking at life. It’s typically short term: 6-10 sessions, and features assignments with the therapist gently challenging you. It was worth every penny. I’m nowhere near as emotionally healthy as I’d like to be (who is?), but the therapy 4 years or so ago really helped.