Does the Lord condone polygamy?

[why_me]

In spite of what whyme thinks, you have it 100% correct. All of D&C 132 was about polygamy and the justification thereof. What the revelation also makes clear is that ‘celestial marriage’ is one part polygamy and one part temple marriage, the “new and everlasting covenant.”

But the lord did give david his master’s wives for his bosom…He must have had a happy bosom… Who is the lord of the old testament?

 

[Returning_Home]

Not quite. Joseph Smith was sealed to most of his wives from 1841 to 1843. During those two years he was a man in a hurry. In the 1830’s he married his second wife. Why was he in such a hurry to be sealed during those two years listed? Did he suddenly get itchy and needed some sex? I doubt it. My guess: He actually felt that god was commanding him to marry these women. He was a slow starter and god was angry with him for neglecting his duty. None of these women ever claimed that Joseph Smith was lusty, selfish etc. And many of these women had spiritual witnesses that polygamy was from god. If they didn’t have this experience they would have said no.

This is where my belief that Smith was mentally ill comes into play; increased libido and manic behavior is charcteristic of certain disorders and would explain the fact that this took off exponentially in the last years of his life.

Just because someone has a ‘special witness’ about certain things Mormon doesn’t make the things it holds as fact to be true. You can jump up and down and tell me how swell Joseph Smith was but that still doesn’t revise history to the point that Lamanites, Nephites, and Jaredites become real. Mormons tend to believe what they believe because they want to, not because it has any basis in fact.

 

[Returning_Home]

But the lord did give david his master’s wives for his bosom…He must have had a happy bosom… Who is the lord of the old testament?

I already know where you’re headed with that one and it’s not Jesus pretending tp be Jehovah nor is that even the case in the Book of Abraham.

 

[SirThomasMore]

If you say so. But it seems that many prophets of the old testament sound like tiger woods…or do they? I don’t think that you would say such a thing about david, would you? No…I don’t think so.

Sigh…that is your mantra…if you can;t defend your prophets actions less than 150 years ago, compare him to a totally different culture 6000 years ago. Got it.

 

[TikiTokiguy]

I can’t believe the depravity of Smith. I always figured he prayed about it, gave it a lot of thought, then asked a woman to be his wife. He was getting sealed to women all around him,
seducing them like there was no tomorrow. Even writing some revelation from God saying if the first wife does not agree with her husbands polygamy she could get in big trouble with God! This was all about lust. Anybody who argues differently, with all due respect, is foolish. What a sham. How can the LDS defend this?

 

[TikiTokiguy]

And Emma Smith was NOT for polygamy.

 

[MelanieAnne]

And Emma Smith was NOT for polygamy.

I think that Emma Smith is one of the saddest, if not THE saddest, figures in this entire story. She was made to endure all of this stuff perpetrated by her husband and he claimed that it all came from God, which is pretty hard to refute for a “good Christian woman”. That, coupled with the circumstances of the time, left her pretty much “trapped”.

It is no wonder that she stayed behind when Brigham Young took so many west. That doesn’t justify the accusation that BY made that she was not a good woman. It would seem to me that her major flaw was that she didn’t agree with him. That hardly makes her a bad person.

Imagine if all that were to happen today ~ A man claims that he has received additional “scripture” from an “angel” but after he “translates” this scripture (using glowing stones held in the bottom of a hat and dictated to another person who can’t see the “translator” doing this) the additional scripture is taken away by the same “angel”. This “scripture” also supposedly undermines the faith of all other local Christian religions and they are all called an “abomination”.

The recipient of this new information goes on to receive “revelations” from God of many things including the necessity to institute polygamy among the members, as well as many secret rituals that only a select few are allowed to be a part of.

What do you suppose the result would be, today, if someone presented that sort of story? I know it is an abridgement of the entire situation, but you get the drift…

 

[Returning_Home]

I think that Emma Smith is one of the saddest, if not THE saddest, figures in this entire story. She was made to endure all of this stuff perpetrated by her husband and he claimed that it all came from God, which is pretty hard to refute for a “good Christian woman”. That, coupled with the circumstances of the time, left her pretty much “trapped”.

It is no wonder that she stayed behind when Brigham Young took so many west. That doesn’t justify the accusation that BY made that she was not a good woman. It would seem to me that her major flaw was that she didn’t agree with him. That hardly makes her a bad person.

Agreed; if there were any victims of Smith’s polygamy, Emma was undoubtedly one of them.

On your second point, another reason for Young slandering her was likely the fact that she refused to give the completed Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible to the departing Saints. She did release his notes, but not the final edition, which most Mormons don’t know.

 

[MelanieAnne]

On your second point, another reason for Young slandering her was likely the fact that she refused to give the completed Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible to the departing Saints. She did release his notes, but not the final edition, which most Mormons don’t know.

Interesting. I didn’t know that either.

I imagine it would be hard to understand, for the modern woman, why refusal to part with things that belonged to your husband would result in slander.

 

[MJE]

I am still stuck, in a mild shock, on the phrase ‘reluctant polygamist’ in reference to J.Smith. Reluctant in bedding the teen girls? In the Catholic church we have consecrated men and women who give up marriage, family & more for the glory of God but in the Mormon church men took/take in many wives/bed partners for the glory of God?

 

[TikiTokiguy]

I once thought I had knowledge great,
But now I find 'tis small.
I once thought I’d region too,
But now I find I’ve none at all -
For I have but one LONE WIFE,
And can obtain no more;
And the doctrine is I can’t be saved,
Unless I’ve HALF A SCORE.

 

[CatholicGuy22]

The first reading in church last Sunday was from the old testament. In fact, the first reading is usually from the old testament and the second reading is usually from the new testament. So, the catholic faith does also center itself on the old testament.

Now mormons have been condemned on the catholic friends for their practice of polygamy and yet, here we have the lord giving David all of his master’s wives to hold. That is polygamy. So, it seems that the mormons could have instruction from god to practice polygamy. It certainly would not be impossible.

It was allowed was because he knew there hearts were hardened and allowed them to do these things. This was the reason for so many rules back in the OT days. God saw the hardness of their hearts and inability to follow him through there heart so made rules which were brought by moses. But Jesus, God incarnate, preach against it. Jesus is the new law and whatever he says goes. This is why the jews had a problem with Jesus.

 

[why_me]

I think that Emma Smith is one of the saddest, if not THE saddest, figures in this entire story. She was made to endure all of this stuff perpetrated by her husband and he claimed that it all came from God, which is pretty hard to refute for a “good Christian woman”. That, coupled with the circumstances of the time, left her pretty much “trapped”.

She wasn’t made to endure anything that she didn’t want to endure. She believed in the prophethood of her husband but struggled with polygamy. This showed her to be very human. She knew her husband very well and knew about the early beginnings of the lds church complete with how her husband translated it. She was there. And she said that if her husband would have written the book of mormon she would have known about it.

If she was in on the con, then she deserved everything that she got and wasn’t a sad figure at all. She could have come out when the saints moved west with BY and spilled the beans. But she didn’t. She continued to teach her children from the bible and rom the book of mormon. But where was her sadness?

In the fact that her husband and brother in law were murdered by a mob while they were in prison. Now that is sad.

 

[why_me]

I already know where you’re headed with that one and it’s not Jesus pretending tp be Jehovah nor is that even the case in the Book of Abraham.

Who is the lord of the old testament? Because whomever he is, he supported polygamy.

 

[why_me]

Sigh…that is your mantra…if you can;t defend your prophets actions less than 150 years ago, compare him to a totally different culture 6000 years ago. Got it.

So god changes with the culture and with time? Thank you sirthomas, I will take that into consideration.

 

[zaffiroborant]

So god changes with the culture and with time? Thank you sirthomas, I will take that into consideration.

No God takes the culture we create and works with it, to lead it to where it should be. Or in the case of polygyny, BACK to where it was originally, Adam and Eve, marriage being one man one woman. If everything the Israelites did was pleasing to God why were they called unfaithful? Why do the LDS make such a point of “restoring” the things of the OT? What was the point of Christ’s coming if the OT Israelites had it all right? The NT is very clear one wife, all else is adultery, even thinking of another woman is adultery. And what about the SPECIFIC BIBLICAL proscription against marrying sisters(the Partridge sisters). So WHY, if Joe was restoring all things was this particular and specific rule ignored? Then there is the issue of JS marrying other mens wives. Where in the OT is anyone allowed to marry another mans wife?

Which brings us to Zina, the wife of Henry AND Joseph and then passed along from Joseph to Brigham (while still married to poor Henry) like a piece of meat ( a cow according to Heber). Nope Joe was making it up as he went along. Why did he marry a bunch of women all of a sudden? Not because he found out he wasn’t doing as God commanded, he did it because he found out women and their families (shameful) would let him. Such is the influence of charismatic men. We’ve seen it more recently and in it’s most extreme in Jonestown.

 

[why_me]

Agreed; if there were any victims of Smith’s polygamy, Emma was undoubtedly one of them.

On your second point, another reason for Young slandering her was likely the fact that she refused to give the completed Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible to the departing Saints. She did release his notes, but not the final edition, which most Mormons don’t know.

None of the women sealed to Joseph Smith considered themselves victims.

Both Young and emma did not get along and a she said/he said began. Most were rumored to say through second hand sources. One lived in Utah and the other lived in Nauvoo. Direct communication was a problem. However when the children of JS visited the saints in Salt Lake they were rceived warmly by Brigham and the church leadership.

 

[why_me]

I am still stuck, in a mild shock, on the phrase ‘reluctant polygamist’ in reference to J.Smith. Reluctant in bedding the teen girls? In the Catholic church we have consecrated men and women who give up marriage, family & more for the glory of God but in the Mormon church men took/take in many wives/bed partners for the glory of God?

He was a reluctant polygamist but so were the women involved until a spiritual experienced convinced them otherwise:

Question

Did those who entered into plural marriage do so simply because Joseph Smith (or another Church leader) “told them to”? Is this an example of “blind obedience”?
Response

Critics do not want their audience to know that most of those approached about plural marriage were very reluctant until their opinions were changed by what were often dramatic spiritual experiences.
Zina Huntington

Zina’s brother Dimick encouraged her to accept Joseph’s proposal of plural marriage. However, she refused. What changed her mind? Zina recorded:

I searched the scripture & buy [by] humble prayer to my Heavenly Father I obtained a testimony for myself that God had required that order to be established in this church, I mad[e] a greater sacrifise than to give my life for I never anticipated a gain [again] to be looked uppon as an honerable woman by those I dearly loved [but] could I compremise conience lay aside the sure testimony of the spiret of God for the Glory of this world…[1]

Simply put, Zina “did not merely bow to Smith’s pressure; she obtained her own testimony of polygamy by scripture study…and by personal revelation.”[2]
Benjamin Johnson

Joseph approached Benjamin Johnson for permission to marry his sisters, Delcena and Almera. If Joseph’s intentions were dishonorable, this seems a foolhardy thing to do. Benjamin reports his reaction:

In almost an agony of feeling…I looked him Straight in the Face & Said: ‘Brother Joseph This is Something I did not Expect & I do not understand it—You know whether it is right. I do not. I want to do just as you tell me, and I will try. But if I [ever] should Know that you do this to Dishonor & debauch my Sister I will kill you as Shure as the Lord lives=and while his eye did not move from mine He Said with a Smile, in a soft tone ‘But Benjamin you will never know that. But you will know the principle is true and will greatly Rejoice in what it will bring to you’ "But.how I asked. Can I teach my Sister when I mYself do not understand…'But you will See & underStand it' he Said and when you open your mouth to talk to your Sister light will come to you & your mouth will be full. & your toung lose.[3]

Here we have a brother who wants to do the right thing, but swears by God to kill Joseph if he learns that the prophet is proceeding for false reasons. This demonstrates that Joseph was not seen as infallible by his followers—Benjamin knows that Joseph could be acting from base motives. Benjamin says that Joseph knows “whether it is right” (not “that it is right”) but he does not. Benjamin proceeds on the basis of a rather fear-filled faith to speak to a sister:
I stood before her trembling, my knees shaking…Just So Soon as I found powr to open my mouth it was filled for the Light of the Lord Shone upon my understanding and the Subject that had Seemed So dark, now appeared of all Subjects pertaining to our Gospel the most lucid & plain, and So my Sister & myself were converted together.[4]

 

[why_me]

Heber and Vilate Kimball

Helen Mar Kimball wrote of her parents:

My mother had noticed a change in his [Heber's] looks and appearance [since the command to practice plural marriage], and when she enquired the cause, he tried to evade her question, saying it was only her imagination, or that he was not feeling well, etc. But it so worked upon his mind that his anxious and haggard looks betrayed him daily and hourly, and finally his misery became so unbearable that it was impossible to control his feelings. He became sick in body, but his mental wretchedness was too great to allow of his retiring at night, and instead of going to bed he would walk the floor; and the agony of his mind was so terrible that he would wring his hands and weep, beseeching the Lord with his whole soul to be merciful and reveal to his wife the cause of his great sorrow, for he himself could not break his vow of secrecy. His anguish and my mother's, were indescribable and when unable to endure it longer, she retired to her room, where with a broken and contrite heart, she poured out her grief to [God]. . . . 

My father's heart was raised at the same time in supplication, and while pleading as one would plead for life, the vision of her mind was opened, and she saw the principle of Celestial Marriage illustrated in all its beauty and glory, together with the great exaltation and honor it would confer upon her in that immortal and celestial sphere if she would but accept it and stand in her place by her husband's side. She was also shown the woman he had taken to wife, and contemplated with joy the vast and boundless love and union which this order would bring about, as well as the increase of kingdoms, power, and glory extending throughout the eternities, worlds without end. 

Her soul was satisfied and filled with the Spirit of God. With a countenance beaming with joy she returned to my father, saying, "Heber, what you have kept from me the Lord has shown me." 

She related the scene to me and to many others, and told me she never saw so happy a man as father was, when she described the vision and told him she was satisfied and knew that it was from God. She covenanted to stand by him and honor the principle, which covenant she faithfully kept, and though her trials were often heavy and grievous to bear, her integrity was unflinching to the end.[5]

Helen Mar Kimball

Main article: Helen Mar Kimball

Sarah Leavitt

…I thought that the Anointed of the Lord would not get more wives unless they were commanded to do so. But still I wanted a knowledge of the truth for myself. I asked my husband if he did not think we could get a revelation for ourselves on that subject. He said he did not know…[That evening] my mind was carried away from the earth and I had a view of the order of the celestial kingdom…I have seen so much wrong connected with this ordinance that had I not had it revealed to me from Him that cannot lie,] I should have…doubted the truth of it, but there has never a doubt crossed my mind concerning the truth of it since the Lord made it known to me by a heavenly vision.[6]

 

[why_me]

Emily Partridge

When Joseph Smith mentioned plural marriage to Emily Partridge, her response was immediate:

‘He asked me if I wished the matter ended. I said I did…* shut him up so quick’ that he did not bring up the subject again for months.[7]

Critics are fond of portraying Joseph Smith as being driven by sexual lusts. In this case, he simply left Emily alone for months. She received her own witness in the interim, without any influence or pressure from Joseph:

she was troubled by Joseph’s teachings and later described herself as ‘struggling in deep water’ during those months: ‘I had plenty of time to think and began to wish I had listened to what he would have said and I began to be as miserable as I was before…[In] those few months I received a testimony of the words that Joseph would have said to me and their nature before they were told me and being convinced of them I received them readily.[8]

When Emily told Joseph about her decision, it is clear that Joseph merely waited patiently for months until Emily approached him:

…[Joseph] said the Lord had commanded [him] to enter into plural marriage and had given me to him and although I had got badly frightened he knew I would yet have him. So he waited till the Lord told him. My mind was now prepared and would receive the principles.[9]

Mary Elizabeth Rollins

When taught about plural marriage:
She replied that she would never be sealed to him until she had a direct witness from God. He told her to pray earnestly, for the angel had told him that she would have a witness.” [And, indeed, this witness comes:] a Personage stood in front of the Bed looking at me. Its clothes were whiter than anything I had ever seen, I could look at its Person, but when I saw its face so bright, and more beautiful than any Earthly being could be, and those eyes pearcing me through, and through, I could not endure it… [She recounted this to Joseph,] who…predicted events that would take place in her family. ‘Every word came true. I went forward and was sealed to him.’[10] *