Does the Lord condone polygamy?

[why_me]

Lucy Walker

Of the proposal of marriage:

When [Joseph] Smith sensed resistance, as has been seen, he generally continued teaching—asking the prospective wife to pray about the principle, promising that she would receive a witness. So it happened here. ‘He said, “if you will pray sincerely for light and understanding in relation thereto, you Shall receive a testimony of the correctness of this principle.”’ Lucy was horrified by polygamy and by his proposal and did not quickly gain the promised testimony. She prayed, she wrote, but not with faith. She was nearly suicidal: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest of the bosom of my dear mother.[11]

Joseph waited at least four months, and then told Mary that she had to decide before the next day. What was her response?

‘This aroused every drop of scotch in my veins,' [wrote Mary,]…I felt at this moment that I was called to place myself upon the altar a living Sacrafice, perhaps to brook the world in disgrace and incur the displeasure and contempt of my youthful companions; all my dreams of happiness blown to the four winds, this was too much, the thought was unbearable.’…She then told Joseph that she could not marry him unless God revealed it to her, and God had not done so yet. She wrote, ‘* emphatically forbid him speaking again to me on this Subject.’[12]

What was Joseph’s response? Did he threaten? Cajole? Use his prophetic office to apply pressure?

He walked across the room, returned, and stood before me. With the most beautiful expression of countenance, he said, “God almighty bless you. You shall have a manifestation of the will of God concerning you; a testimony that you can never deny. I will tell you what it shall be. It shall be that peace and joy that you never knew.”[13]

Lucy describes the answer she later received while alone:
My room became filled with a heavenly influence. To me it was in comparison like the brilliant sun bursting through the darkest cloud…My Soul was filled with a calm, sweet peace that I never knew. Supreme happiness took possession of my whole being. And I received a powerful and irristable testimony of the truth of the marriage covenant called ‘Celestial or plural mariage.’ Which has been like an anchor to the soul through all the trials of life. I felt that I must go out into the morning air and give vent to the Joy and grattitude that filled my Soul. As I descended the stairs, Prest. Smith opened the door below; took me by the hand and said: ‘Thank God, you have the testimony. I too, have prayed.’ He led me to a chair, placed his hands upon my head, and blessed me with Every blessing my heart could possibly desire.[14] *

 

[why_me]

Elizabeth and Newel K. Whitney

Wrote one biographer:

When Joseph saw that he [Newel Whitney] was doubtful concerning the righteousness of this celestial order he told him to go and enquire of the Lord concerning it, and he should receive a testimony for himself’…This is typical of the way Smith dealt with initial resistance to plurality. And as so often happened, Newel and Elizabeth received a revelation.[15]

Elizabeth recorded:

…We pondered upon [the doctrine of polygamy] continually, and our prayers were unceasing that the Lord would grant us some special manifestation concerning this new and strange doctrine. The Lord was very merciful to us; He revealed unto us His power and glory. We were seemingly wrapt in a heavenly vision, a halo of light encircled us, and we were convinced in our own minds that God heard and approved our prayers…Our hearts were comforted and our faith made so perfect that we were willing to give our eldest daughter [Sarah Ann Whitney], then only seventeen years of age, to Joseph, in the holy order of plural marriage…laying aside all our traditions and former notions in regard to marriage, we gave her with our mutual consent.[16]

Conclusion

It is clear that Joseph applied very little pressure, and the members were not inclined to simply follow him blindly. Those who sought a witness received a dramatic experience which convinced them, independent of Joseph, that plural marriage was the correct path for them to follow.

en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy/Divine_manifestations_to_plural_wives_and_families

 

[why_me]

Such were the experiences of the so called victims of Joseph’s polygamy. These women experienced powerful manifestations that polygamy was called by god.

 

[scipio337]

Such were the experiences of the so called victims of Joseph’s polygamy. These women experienced powerful manifestations that polygamy was called by god.

Could you point out more “reluctant polygamists” in the OT?

I’m having a difficult time finding where God commanded OT prophets into polygyny.

Abram took Hagar at Sarai’s request, not God’s, and Isaac had more than 1 wife only because he was tricked into marrying the first.

Hoping you can finally answer this question.

 

[SirThomasMore]

So god changes with the culture and with time? Thank you sirthomas, I will take that into consideration.

How silly you become in order to try to prove a point. I have NEVER said polygamy was from God. I have said it was done 6000 years ago, and that you can;t seem to make your points without comparing 150 years ago in the US with 6000 years ago in the middle east. Are you sure you want us to act here like they do in the middle east?

Face it, polygamy was not from God. Joseph was just like Bill Clinton and Tiger Woods. The difference is, he was worse because he told women it was ordained by God. He was a conman who used his self-ordained authority to prey on people.

 

[why_me]

How silly you become in order to try to prove a point. I have NEVER said polygamy was from God. I have said it was done 6000 years ago, and that you can;t seem to make your points without comparing 150 years ago in the US with 6000 years ago in the middle east. Are you sure you want us to act here like they do in the middle east?

Face it, polygamy was not from God. Joseph was just like Bill Clinton and Tiger Woods. The difference is, he was worse because he told women it was ordained by God. He was a conman who used his self-ordained authority to prey on people.

If you say so, sirthomas. Of course you skipped over the spiritual experiences of the women that I provided. No comment there at all. You can just keep believing what you believe. I have no problem with it at all. But don’t overlook all the wonderful experiences that these women had as they contemplated plural marriage and the heavenly visions that they experienced.

But their experiences are amazing.

 

[why_me]

Could you point out more “reluctant polygamists” in the OT?

I’m having a difficult time finding where God commanded OT prophets into polygyny.

Abram took Hagar at Sarai’s request, not God’s, and Isaac had more than 1 wife only because he was tricked into marrying the first.

Hoping you can finally answer this question.

It makes no difference. I have just provided the spiritual experiences of several women who JS was sealed to. They had beautiful spiritual experiences as they contemplated plural marriage. And that in a nutshell is what matters. They were not victims as was suggested.

Now ou and the others can do what may with these experiences. But for me, I leave the door open on the matter. The more a person knows about that time, the more knowledgeable they become. I take these experiences as possiblities of why the mormon faith continues regardless of what people may say about it both for the good and for the bad.

 

[scipio337]

The “look at how beautiful their experience was!!” comment falls pretty flat. I’m sure other people have the same “spiritual feeling” while practicing Falun Gong, circling the Kabaa, or taking acid with Charles Manson.

But personal feelings do not make their beliefs or practices true, does it?

It makes no difference. …

Actually, it kinda does. You were the originator of this thread, and you framed it around the idea that since polygyny was allowed to a few OT prophets, the idea of God “reinstating” it to JS was acceptable.

Since I’ve shown that the two have the signifigant difference of being “tolerated” in OT cases, and “commanded” in JS’ case (as you have pointed out), I would say your original analogy falls pretty flat on its face, wouldn’t you?

 

[SirThomasMore]

If you say so, sirthomas. Of course you skipped over the spiritual experiences of the women that I provided.

So? You keep making the same mistakes over and oover. I can provide a litany of statements from women who were in polygamous marriages that will say horrible things about their experiences. You make the same mistakes other mormons do “if it feels good, it must be good”. That is how the false prophets have programmed you to think. It does not matter HOW good it feels if it is NOT from God.

No comment there at all. You can just keep believing what you believe. I have no problem with it at all. But don’t overlook all the wonderful experiences that these women had as they contemplated plural marriage and the heavenly visions that they experienced.

But their experiences are amazing.

I know a bunch a druggies who can testify to their amazing experiences. So, according to the Whyme Gospel, it must be a command from God to use drugs

 

[KathleenGee]

Why me,

How much time do you spend studying the history of your own Catholic faith and how our saints and witnesses are different than Mormons?

I mean, Catholic saints are different than Mormon saints because all Mormons are saints.

 

[TikiTokiguy]

There are two things that stick out about polygamy that I read in the Fawn Brodie book. The first one is the story of a British girl who Smith or one of his cronies (maybe Young) wanted to add to his list of wives. So they put her in the room and Smith put the pressure on her. She did not want to do it. Can you imagine how scared this girl was? To me sitting a girl in a room and having a so called prophet put the pressure on her like Smith did is tantamount to sexual abuse. The story goes she refused and went back to England and told her mom and dad and they told the press.

Another shocking thing that I wonder is really true - they had a so called book of marriage. If Smith or someone wanted to add a girl to their harem, they would open the book, write the girls name down, then close the book and seal it up to make it look like it’s been sealed for a long time. Then they would bring the girl in, show her the sealed book, and tell her God put her name in the marriage book, meaning she should give herself to marriage. They would break the seal, open the book and show the girl her name. She would be amazed that somehow her name got put in the book even though it was sealed. It must have been God to put her name in the book! So she had to give herself up to marriage.

What a scam.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Where in the OT does God “condone/command” a woman having two husbands? Where in the OT does God “condone/command” the marrying of sisters? Where in the OT does God “condone/command” marrying a mother and a daugter?

 

[TikiTokiguy]

I’ve never seen the movie “The God Makers” but reading about it on Wiki, it seems LDS and non-LDS criticized the film. One of things in the film (according to Wiki) is the idea of endless celestial sex which the LDS found offensive and said is not true. But after reading the Fawn Brodie book, it does seem like the whole idea is celestial sex, at least that’s part of the goal. Even Brodie says this. From my few years in the church it does seem to me the goal is eternal mating with women. This all goes back to lust. You can paint it anyway you want. You can say polygamy is about love and not sex. But that’s wrong and you know it. It started with Smith satisfying his lust.

 

[why_me]

The “look at how beautiful their experience was!!” comment falls pretty flat. I’m sure other people have the same “spiritual feeling” while practicing Falun Gong, circling the Kabaa, or taking acid with Charles Manson.

But personal feelings do not make their beliefs or practices true, does it?

Can we say the same for a catholic receiving the Eucharist? I suppose so. But I noticed that you didn’t comment on their experiences. Perhaps because you didn’t bother to read them. But they are quite powerful with the seeing of heavenly visions.

 

[why_me]

This all goes back to lust. You can paint it anyway you want. You can say polygamy is about love and not sex. But that’s wrong and you know it. It started with Smith satisfying his lust.

I don’t hear the women talking about lust at all. I just hear them talking about their spiritual experiences when they were contemplating being sealed to Joseph Smith.

But of course, you want it to be lust, right? It fits your own viewpoint and decision making.

 

[why_me]

SirThomasMore:
SirThomas:

I know a bunch a druggies who can testify to their amazing experiences. So, according to the Whyme Gospel, it must be a command from God to use drugs

Again, I guess we can compare the catholic experience at eucharist to a druggie experience, right? Or when we read the diary of saint faustina, we can compare her visions to an lsd trip, right? Or are these experiences different?

Show charity Tom and not insults. It is unbecoming of a catholic.

 

[SirThomasMore]

SirThomas:

I know a bunch a druggies who can testify to their amazing experiences. So, according to the Whyme Gospel, it must be a command from God to use drugs

Again, I guess we can compare the catholic experience at eucharist to a druggie experience, right?

If you need to, go ahead. I am not the one claiming that good experiences must mean it is from God. YOU are. Nice try./COLOR]

Or when we read the diary of saint faustina, we can compare her visions to an lsd trip, right? Or are these experiences different?

You are confused because you are talking yourself into a corner. First you claim it must be from God because a few people claimed good experiences. Then, when faced with the absurdity of your position, you try to throw it (unsucessfully) back on me. That has you very confused.
Show charity Tom and not insults. It is unbecoming of a catholic.

Showing you how you follow false prophets IS Charity. And That IS becoming of a Catholic.

Keep misuing “charity”…I have fun continually correcting you.

 

[scipio337]

Can we say the same for a catholic receiving the Eucharist? I suppose so. But I noticed that you didn’t comment on their experiences. Perhaps because you didn’t bother to read them. But they are quite powerful with the seeing of heavenly visions.

Sure. My feelings while receiving the Eucharist are subjective, and not proof of my beliefs on the Eucharist.

Good enough?

 

[scipio337]

Now, for the $60,000 question that you haven’t answered, despite my asking twice, and zaffiborant asking on this very page:

What OT prophets did God “command” into polygyny??

You were the originator of this thread, and you framed it around the idea that since polygyny was allowed to a few OT prophets, the idea of God “reinstating” it to JS was acceptable.

Since I’ve shown that the two have the signifigant difference of being “tolerated” in OT cases, and “commanded” in JS’ case (as you have pointed out), I would say your original analogy falls pretty flat on its face, wouldn’t you?

 

[TikiTokiguy]

I don’t hear the women talking about lust at all. I just hear them talking about their spiritual experiences when they were contemplating being sealed to Joseph Smith.

But of course, you want it to be lust, right? It fits your own viewpoint and decision making.

That’s one of the weapons of the LDS church - they will say the person insulting the church must be full of satan or simply jealous. They will say any truth that makes it look bad is false, all false.

That was also one of the ways Smith dealt with accusations. He would read the serious accusation in public. The simple fact that he read the accusations out loud was enough evidence to show is followers they must all be false. Would a guilty man actually read such accusations? Of course not! So they thought.