Does the Music you Hear at Mass fit?

[Sirach2]

That was my intention, although I didn’t mean to overgeneralize. Many of the songs at our parish feature lyrics such as:

Compare that to the Ordinary of the Mass (Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Agnus, Sanctus) which is entirely focused on praising God, confessing truths about God, and begging for mercy from God. The Mass parts are theocentric, most music (at least that I hear) is people-centric. That is a serious problem.

As I mentioned, then you need to sit down with the Bishop and air your problem. As it stands now, this is the guidline from the USCCB;

1. For typical vernacular editions, the *recognitio *granted by the Apostolic See is to be indicated in the printed editions together with the concordat cum originali signed by the chairman of the liturgical Commission of the Conference of Bishops, as well as the imprimatur undersigned by the President of the same Conference (Liturgiam authenticam, no. 81).

If the hymnal contains this approval, then the problem is not with the approved hymn, but with a misunderstanding you have with its theology being correct in your view. Not every hymn must comprise praise directed to God alone. When we worship, we are the Body of Christ in communion with one another, and as St. Augustine said, “we become what we receive.” It is not wrong to direct some of the singing to the communal body gathered in prayer and recognize our oneness in the Lord. I would recommend Ut Unum Sint by Pope John Paul II for further understanding, as well as Mystici Corporis by Pius XII. Maybe you need to resolve that.

Have a good evening, P.P.

 

[Cat]

To the OP: You alienated me when you used the following sentence in your blog (italics mine) : What do you think? Does the music you hear at Mass fit the essence of the liturgy or is it “figure skating music?”

“Figure skating music!!!” FIGURE SKATING MUSIC!!!



How many figure skating competitions have you personally attended in the last 25 years?

I’m guessing you haven’t attended as many as I have attended.

I strongly suggest that you use a different analogy.

Both figure skating and football are tough, physical sports that require a high level of athleticism.

Both figure skating and football are beautiful sports that cause us to marvel at God’s amazing creation of human beings.

The idea that there is “football music” and “figure skating music” is, IMO, ridiculous and incorrect. Music that is “appropriate” for football is “appropriate” for figure skating, and vice versa.

 

[PietroPaolo]

Did you watch the commercial the blog post referenced and linked to? Did you even read the whole blog post? No and no?

The commercial, for Bud Light, features a Paula Cole song playing in a bar while a guy watches a football game. the guy in the commercial says this isn’t football music, this is figure skating music.

My comment, following the video, was simply asking whether the music you hear fits the Mass or if it is “figure skating music” ie music that is fit for something else (the way the phrase is used in the commercial).

I have nothing against figure skating, but suggesting that figure skating isn’t more feminine and football more masculine is odd to the utmost.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

As I mentioned, then you need to sit down with the Bishop and air your problem. As it stands now, this is the guidline from the USCCB;

1. For typical vernacular editions, the *recognitio *granted by the Apostolic See is to be indicated in the printed editions together with the concordat cum originali signed by the chairman of the liturgical Commission of the Conference of Bishops, as well as the imprimatur undersigned by the President of the same Conference (Liturgiam authenticam, no. 81).

If the hymnal contains this approval, then the problem is not with the approved hymn, but with a misunderstanding you have with its theology being correct in your view. Not every hymn must comprise praise directed to God alone. When we worship, we are the Body of Christ in communion with one another, and as St. Augustine said, “we become what we receive.” It is not wrong to direct some of the singing to the communal body gathered in prayer and recognize our oneness in the Lord. I would recommend Ut Unum Sint by Pope John Paul II for further understanding, as well as Mystici Corporis by Pius XII. Maybe you need to resolve that.

Have a good evening, P.P.

Also look to the source of many of the lyrics we sing in hymns - modern and ancient. 99% of the time you will find that the lyrics come straight from Biblical verses, particularly the psalms. The next source is usually writings of the Saints (many of whom wrote poems or hymns) - this is where most Marian hymns come from, but also hymns about how we view God (I rejoiced, etc.)

 

[PietroPaolo]

As I mentioned, then you need to sit down with the Bishop and air your problem. As it stands now, this is the guidline from the USCCB;

1. For typical vernacular editions, the *recognitio *granted by the Apostolic See is to be indicated in the printed editions together with the concordat cum originali signed by the chairman of the liturgical Commission of the Conference of Bishops, as well as the imprimatur undersigned by the President of the same Conference (Liturgiam authenticam, no. 81).

If the hymnal contains this approval, then the problem is not with the approved hymn, but with a misunderstanding you have with its theology being correct in your view. Not every hymn must comprise praise directed to God alone. When we worship, we are the Body of Christ in communion with one another, and as St. Augustine said, “we become what we receive.” It is not wrong to direct some of the singing to the communal body gathered in prayer and recognize our oneness in the Lord. I would recommend Ut Unum Sint by Pope John Paul II for further understanding, as well as Mystici Corporis by Pius XII. Maybe you need to resolve that.

Have a good evening, P.P.

First, I don’t have a problem with my bishop, I simply am starting a conversation about what types of music are appropriate for the Mass.

Second, at Mass we worship God not ourselves. Your use of St Augustine is out of context and appalling. We do not become God to the point of receiving latria, worship. That is idolatry.

Third, you also are misreading the guidelines from the USCCB, which are referring to the parts of the Mass and their translation not tot the hymns included in the missalettes. A close reading of the document you link to will reveal that. See section C.

Fourth, you’ve yet to answer my original question - **is the music you hear at Mass APPROPRIATE ** for the Mass? You like the music you hear at Mass, that much is clear. You’ve passed the buck to the music director, the priest, the bishop, and the USCCB, but you haven’t answered the question, have you?

Make your case. Why is the music you hear in Mass, especially some of those songs I referenced above if you also are hearing those, appropriate for the Mass?

 

[Sirach2]

Third, you also are misreading the guidelines from the USCCB, which are referring to the parts of the Mass and their translation not tot the hymns included in the missalettes. A close reading of the document you link to will reveal that. See section C.

Not really. I was referring to the requirement of the concordat cum originali that is found in all missalettes. If it is missing, then you have a right to be concerned, but I believe it is printed clearly in the front of every missalette or it would not have received permission for publication. Let’s look at these two points in the same document:
4. In particular, from the approved liturgical books to the simplest participation aids, publications should provide the greatest possible diversity and options, as expected by the liturgical reform.
No publication should limit, directly or indirectly, the breadth of choice open to the priest and other ministers, the leaders of song, parish and community worship committees, or others who participate in planning liturgical celebration.

Fourth, you’ve yet to answer my original question - **is the music you hear at Mass APPROPRIATE **for the Mass?

Yes, always.

Second, at Mass we worship God not ourselves. Your use of St Augustine is out of context and appalling. We do not become God to the point of receiving latria, worship. That is idolatry.

That’s because you completely misunderstand it. Here’s the first item to come up after I googled, written by a Franciscan friar. This comes from only one of many religious who have used St. Augustine’s famous quote. My first encounter of this quote was in a papal encyclical at the Vatican, but for now I cannot remember which one. I’ll give my brain a workover and try find it.

Compare that to the Ordinary of the Mass (Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Agnus, Sanctus) which is entirely focused on praising God, confessing truths about God, and begging for mercy from God.

You are comparing apples to oranges, two different things. These are liturgical prayers and will always be directed to God. A liturgy will not be complete without these, whether or not there is a hymn at all outside of actual liturgical prayer. The hymns may certainly express our identity within the Mystical Body, appropriately so.

I have last year’s missalette and will look at some of the hymns you find so offensive, but when you examine them closely, they merely recite what we believe, which is a good teaching exercise, such as* I am the Bread of Life* (John 6) Nobody would think that they are personally the Bread of Life. Your hyperbole is overstretched here.

Taste and See is actually psalm 34. In song, it is an invitation to the corporate Body of Christ present at that Eucharist to receive Christ and “know” Him. This word is used in the sense of intimacy such as scripture designates when a man “knows” a woman. It is not a sampling of food, as the literal words convey, but they are treated spiritually as was done in the psalm.

Etc., etc.

 

[Cat]

Did you watch the commercial the blog post referenced and linked to? Did you even read the whole blog post? No and no?

Yes and yes.

The commercial, for Bud Light, features a Paula Cole song playing in a bar while a guy watches a football game. the guy in the commercial says this isn’t football music, this is figure skating music.

My comment, following the video, was simply asking whether the music you hear fits the Mass or if it is “figure skating music” ie music that is fit for something else (the way the phrase is used in the commercial).

I have nothing against figure skating, but suggesting that figure skating isn’t more feminine and football more masculine is odd to the utmost.

Odd?

What do you know about figure skating? Do you have any experience at all with this sport.

Do you realize that half the people who will be participating in the Olympic figure skating events are men? In fact, the sport started in the Netherlands, and was done primarily by men for many years.

Do you realize that without men, pairs and ice dancing (ISU-sanctioned) could not happen?

Do you realize that at this point in history, men are members of International and World level synchronized skating teams? (There is no Olympic synchronized skating yet.)

If you do realize all these things, are you saying that male figure skaters are “feminine?” Or that even if males do the sport of figure skating, it is still a “feminine” sport?

Is this what you’re saying? It’s what I HEAR you saying, and if it is what you’re saying–you are off by a thousand miles. A million miles.

To me, this type of erroneous thinking about figure skating casts doubt on everything else you say. I have a hard time believing anything of a person who says that “football is masculine” and “figure skating is feminine.” That is such nonsense.

This is what I am hearing in your posts so far:

1. You have developed and are proposing in a public arena a theory about Mass music based on a television beer commercial that is meant to be amusing, not factual.
2. You know nothing about figure skating, and you harbor opinions that are sexist and just plain wrong.
3. You know little about music theory, composition, or literature, and are relying on your own personal opinions to determine which music is “Mass-appropriate” and which music is “not Mass-appropriate.” You are presenting these personal opinions in such a way as to make them seem like proven fact rather than theory/opinion.
4. You are challenging/scorning the authority of a committee of apostles of the Lord Jesus (bishops) who have declared that many of the “inappropriate” hymns are indeed, appropriate for the Mass.
5. You are dismissing/criticizing the hard and faithful work of parish Music and Liturgy Directors who have been hired by their diocese (which is headed by an apostle of the Lord Jesus) because they have been deemed “knowledgeable” enough to select appropriate Mass music.
6. You are questioning the ability of laypeople in the pews to discern whether their Mass music is “appropriate”; the strong implication is that many of them are “not capable” of discerning which music is appropriate for Mass; in other words, laymen are “lacking basic intelligence.”

Go ahead and correct me if what I am hearing is not what you are saying. I don’t wish to demonize you, but I do think you are pontificating about things that you know little about. In friendly circles of people who already agree with you, you will thrive. But if you go outside of this very small circle, as you have here on CAFyou will meet with resistance and in my case, hostility. You can’t say the things you are saying in this thread and pass them off as “factual.”

 

[PietroPaolo]

Not really. I was referring to the requirement of the concordat cum originali that is found in all missalettes. If it is missing, then you have a right to be concerned, but I believe it is printed clearly in the front of every missalette or it would not have received permission for publication…

But, at least you are answering my question! And we can have a nice discussion over it. I never claimed that my answer to the question “Is the Music you hear at Mass Appropriate” must be the only answer, simply that it must be the only question we ask regarding liturgical music. We disagree over a few points, namely:

1. Is it appropriate to focus our attention on ourselves during the Mass?

• I say NO. You, YES. The Mass is about worshiping God. That is it’s essence. It isn’t about us at all, in fact we are called to transcend ourselves during Mass and “lift our hearts to the LORD.” Not “to ourselves.” You’ll note that the hymns we sing are not a part of the Mass at all - the propers and ordinary of the Mass are - and they need to follow the spirit of the actual parts of the Mass they replace. Now you’ll find that neither the Ordinary nor the Propers focus on “we the people” but on God. You point to the Catholic teaching on the mystical body of Christ, rightly so, but you’re understanding of divination is completely outside of Catholic teaching. We do not become God in such a way that we deserve the worship due to God alone (latria). Even the greatest of the saints, even the angels, even Mary Queen of Heaven, is unworthy to be worshiped. To turn the Mass inward toward the congregation is to pervert the essence of the liturgy. Perhaps you might want to read “The Spirit of the Liturgy” by our Pope Emeritus. Highly recommended.

1. You are putting great weight behind a document that doesn’t deserve it (the publishing guidelines from the USCCB are just that, guidelines and carry no doctrinal authority) and dismiss with the wave of a hand the clear teaching of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council. Remember, the Holy Spirit guarantees Sacrosanctum Concilium not Guidelines for Publishing Liturgical Books.
2. I must ask, because you answer “yes” and “always” as to whether the music you hear in Mass is appropriate - Is there any music you can think of that would be inappropriate?

 

[Sirach2]

1. Is it appropriate to focus our attention on ourselves during the Mass?

• I say NO. You, YES. The Mass is about worshiping God. That is it’s essence. It isn’t about us at all,

I did not say that we ought to focus our attention on ourselves at Mass. You are extrapolating meanings that I never intended. My friend, I’m afraid I see a great deal of rigorousness here that is not at all theologically correct. You may want to sit down some day with a good spiritual advisor and go over some of your complaints, but be sure to listen to him with an open mind and heart. That is something I see missing in this thread. Your way is the only right way. For you, Mass is not the worship of the Body of Christ, but a “God and Me” worship excluding the man next to you in the pews. That is NOT liturgy nor what the mass is all about.

My best to you over the holydays.

 

[PietroPaolo]

1. You have developed and are proposing in a public arena a theory about Mass music based on a television beer commercial that is meant to be amusing, not factual.
2. You know nothing about figure skating, and you harbor opinions that are sexist and just plain wrong.

…

You take yourself and figure skating far too seriously. The blog post was a reflection on the propriety of music for different events, if you can’t understand how the Paula Cole song doesn’t “fit” with watching a football game, but would fit with figure skating, then you are in a very tiny majority of people and might want to lighten up. I’m sexist for proposing that football is more masculine than figure skating? Really?

1. You know little about music theory, composition, or literature, and are relying on your own personal opinions to determine which music is “Mass-appropriate” and which music is “not Mass-appropriate.” You are presenting these personal opinions in such a way as to make them seem like proven fact rather than theory/opinion.

I am starting a conversation, one which people like you seem to want to ban the laity from having. If you disagree, then argue the opposite side - that is the point of these forums, no? If you find the music to be appropriate, then show why it is.

1. You are challenging/scorning the authority of a committee of apostles of the Lord Jesus (bishops) who have declared that many of the “inappropriate” hymns are indeed, appropriate for the Mass.

If you think our bishops have the time to sit down and select songs to be published in missalettes then you know nothing of how those materials are actually produced. The songs are selected by companies (Oregon Press, WLP, etc) with no (name removed by moderator)ut from the bishops.

1. You are dismissing/criticizing the hard and faithful work of parish Music and Liturgy Directors who have been hired by their diocese (which is headed by an apostle of the Lord Jesus) because they have been deemed “knowledgeable” enough to select appropriate Mass music.

Why do you find it so offensive to have a conversation on whether such and such music is appropriate for Mass? Should the laity not be allowed to have any opinions on the matter? Are we at the mercy of music directors? Does “full and active participation” mean not understanding the Mass and applying that understanding in the real world? Why should this topic be taboo?

1. You are questioning the ability of laypeople in the pews to discern whether their Mass music is “appropriate”; the strong implication is that many of them are “not capable” of discerning which music is appropriate for Mass; in other words, laymen are “lacking basic intelligence.”

Actually you are. You just did that in point 5, remember those “parish Music and Liturgy Director” whose decisions we humble pew-sitters are not allowed to question? I’m doing the exact opposite. I’m saying we all can know whether the music we hear at Mass is appropriate or not and that we ought to discuss it. Apparently you feel that is the domain of specialists. You, in fact, seem to be suggesting that “laymen are lacking in basic intelligence” due to “know(ing) little about music theory, composition, or literature.” Or do the laity only have knowledge when agreeing with you?

 

[PietroPaolo]

I did not say that we ought to focus our attention on ourselves at Mass. You are extrapolating meanings that I never intended. My friend, I’m afraid I see a great deal of rigorousness here that is not at all theologically correct. You may want to sit down some day with a good spiritual advisor and go over some of your complaints, but be sure to listen to him with an open mind and heart. That is something I see missing in this thread. Your way is the only right way. For you, Mass is not the worship of the Body of Christ, but a “God and Me” worship excluding the man next to you in the pews. That is NOT liturgy nor what the mass is all about.

My best to you over the holydays.

My friend I see a lot of taking the splinter out of the eye of your brother while ignoring the beam in your own on your thread.

I’m simply having a conversation on what music is or isn’t appropriate for the Mass. Some feel such a conversation is out of bounds. Apparently, good Catholics are not free to disagree on this matter - perhaps the hymns at Mass have been raised to an infallible dogma of the faith and I missed it.

BTW, the Mass is not a “God and me” experience in my view and I never claimed it was. That is a Straw Man and you know it. The Mass is the worship of the Body of Christ directed towards her head not the worship of the body of Christ of herself. That is the distinction.

 

[PietroPaolo]

Does anyone else find it odd that some people, those who like the current hymn selection at Mass, would have this conversation shouted down? Instead of a healthy debate on what music is “Mass music” and what music isn’t, I’ve gotten documents from the USCCB (in an attempt to close the discussion), claims that only music directors can speak on this topic (so we should close the discussion), and accusations that I’m a “rigorist” simply for opening a discussion (which ought to be thus closed).

I certainly have advanced a view and welcome others to advance the contrary view, yet instead I simply am getting shouted down. I find that rather odd. Who would have thought that some would have Catholics not discussing the music we hear at Mass? What an odd conversation to be upset by.

 

[Cat]

You take yourself and figure skating far too seriously. The blog post was a reflection on the propriety of music for different events, if you can’t understand how the Paula Cole song doesn’t “fit” with watching a football game, but would fit with figure skating, then you are in a very tiny majority of people and might want to lighten up. I’m sexist for proposing that football is more masculine than figure skating? Really?

Really. This is strictly your personal opinion, and it is NOT shared by many people in this world.

I would like to challenge you to contact a male figure skater and ask him if the sport of figure skating is less “masculine” than football. And I would like to challenge you to contact a male football player and ask him the same question.

I am starting a conversation, one which people like you seem to want to ban the laity from having. If you disagree, then argue the opposite side - that is the point of these forums, no? If you find the music to be appropriate, then show why it is.

The music is appropriate because the territorial authority deems it so. My personal opinion does not matter. I do not have the theological or pastoral education and experience of a bishop.

If you think our bishops have the time to sit down and select songs to be published in missalettes then you know nothing of how those materials are actually produced. The songs are selected by companies (Oregon Press, WLP, etc) with no (name removed by moderator)ut from the bishops.

The fact that the bishops delegate various tasks to others does not mean that they have reniged their personal responsibility to determine appropriateness. The Vatican has given the authority to the bishops to determine which music is appropriate in their diocese. When they allow a missallette or a hymnal to be used in their parishes, they are saying, “I approve.”

Why do you find it so offensive to have a conversation on whether such and such music is appropriate for Mass? Should the laity not be allowed to have any opinions on the matter? Are we at the mercy of music directors? Does “full and active participation” mean not understanding the Mass and applying that understanding in the real world? Why should this topic be taboo?

The topic shouldn’t be taboo, but anyone discussing this issue must recognize the difference between personal opinion and proven facts. Also, it is best when a topic is discussed by those who have expertise in the subject, not just personal opinion. Finally, Christians must be aware of the possibility of creating factions in the Church, something that St. Paul condemns in very strong language in the New Testament. We are to submit to our authorities (our bishop) and strive to not undermine them in our talk and writing. By suggesting that our bishops are not aware what the publishing companies are selecting is implying that they are “not on top of things,” and this could cause a Christian with weaker faith to doubt other teachings of the bishops and the Church Herself.

Actually you are. You just did that in point 5, remember those “parish Music and Liturgy Director” whose decisions we humble pew-sitters are not allowed to question? I’m doing the exact opposite. I’m saying we all can know whether the music we hear at Mass is appropriate or not and that we ought to discuss it. Apparently you feel that is the domain of specialists. You, in fact, seem to be suggesting that “laymen are lacking in basic intelligence” due to “know(ing) little about music theory, composition, or literature.” Or do the laity only have knowledge when agreeing with you?

You have not given any concrete method for detemining whether music is appropriate for Mass, other than personal opinion and feelings. State your case in plain language. You have mentioned a few hymns which, in your opinion, have “problematic theology.” You can and have been refuted by others with more knowledge. What I see you doing so far is stating your opinion about hymns as “fact,” and suggesting that all the rest of us should do the same. I am a pianist with many decades of church music experience, but I still feel much more secure trusting a musician with training in liturgy to determine which music is appropriate for Mass.