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Nicea325
Guest
Because he was the emperor and had the biggest muscles when flexing…
does the Orthodox church receive as much vitriol as the Catholic Church
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benjohnson
Guest
That’s a grand quote - I’ll remember it when I get a fit of giddy ecuminism.
As I’ve grown older, I’ve come to see unbirdled eccumism as a watering down of our church, not as a process of building up our church. Keeping a closed communion is almost a litmus test to see if we truly believe what we say we believe.
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Mickey
Guest
Amen.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Well, there were certain times in history that the Pope did indeed have more muscle than the emperor. But prior to the Great Schism the Pope certainly sought validation from the emperor, and vice versa. I forgot what Papal Bull it was, but after the Great Schism the Pope asserted himself over the Western Rulers which ended this practice.Because he was the emperor and had the biggest muscles when flexing…
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Nicea325
Guest
As a Catholic I have no problems admitting politics has been part of the church or any church strictly speaking. Well the emperor would have a role since he did convene the first councils,if my history is correct? He did finally give Chrstians the liberty to worship freely minus persecution so in a sense emperor’s were given the due honor and respect.
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dzheremi
Guest
It was not a Papal bull (in fact, I do not think it has ever had any official standing in the RCC; perhaps those who know better can correct me), but there is the Dictatus Papae, supposedly dictated by Pope Gregory VII in 1075, which includes the statement “That it may be permitted to him [The Pope] to depose emperors”. Pretty radical stuff.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Yes, I mean, just look around today. Politics is there. We can’t escape it, it is part of the world we live in. Just as sin is. That is why we shouldn’t pretend our bishops never sin. They do. We’ve had thousands, maybe millions of bishops throughout time. How many of them are canonized saints? A handful. Like what I said about the supposed to be “Holy” Roman Empire. We only recognize about 7 Emperors and Empresses as Saints in the Orthodox Church. In 1100 years of Holy Roman Emperors, we only have about 7 who are truly holy. That says a lot.
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Nicea325
Guest
Wow! Just 7-eh? You are right and it cannot be ignored or turn the blind eye on it. Shoot! Look at the Apostles? One handed Jesus over another denied Him and the others bolted like wild bats out of a cave. Only one stuck around-John. That also says a lot about the very beginning of the church. Now it does not mean we throw our arms up or throw-in the towel. Precisely why we have faith in our God and it is Him alone who we turn to for all our concerns.
God Bless
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tomarin
Guest
And before that, they were conquered by Muslim empires and forced to live on terms dictated by them.
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Mickey
Guest
Many holy Orthodox martyrs were created by Islam.
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tomarin
Guest
Or perhaps are still being created, I’m sorry to say.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I could be wrong, but a quick googling I only found about 7. It shouldn’t be more than that. There were many Emperors who supported the bishops who supported the heretical positions at several points of history. Even Constantine himself was thought of as an Arian, though never convicted or proven of it. But his son who succeeded him went back to paganism. Off the top of my head I can only recall Constantine, Theodosius and Justinian as the Emperor-saints. Then there were 2 Empresses, including the wife of Emperor Justinian and the Empress who called for the Seventh Ecumenical Council and fought iconoclasm, though their names escape my mind right now. Theodosius officially made the Byzantine Empire into a Christian Empire (so anti-Catholic claims that Constantine founded the Catholic Church is unfounded. He didn’t even make Christianity the official religion, as the claim makes). And Justinian was truly obsessed with the faith. I bet if he lived today he’ll be here on CAF and other religious forums 24/7
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tomarin
Guest
Indeed, and of course there’s still quite a bit of persecution of Eastern Christians in the Muslim world today. I try to keep them in my thoughts and prayers.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Yes, there is some sort of “ethnic cleansing” which the West has largely ignored. Are our leaders thinking that by doing this we are getting on the good side of Muslims and they will stop terrorizing our countries? FAT CHANCE! They won’t stop until they have converted the world.
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dzheremi
Guest
Perhaps, but even more scary is the idea that many have probably legitimately embraced the idea popular in the media and academia that all religions are to be treated equally, as they are all paths to God, and hence if there seems to be any problem with one in particular, it the result of hijacking fanatics or something. They say this in English, but the actual fanatics say what they do largely in Arabic, so nobody knows any better…except for the Middle Eastern Christians, who are often treated as though they are being intentionally deceptive or acting out a case of “sour grapes” (y’know, “our society was once Christian and now it’s not, and we’re sad and angry about that so we’re going to lie to people” or something like that). As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water…
Listen very closely to HG Bishop Thomas of Qena’s reply to a fancy American researcher’s question about extremist Islam in Egypt. The American researcher’s question is a lot like how most Americans look at Islam and extremism (e.g., “I know/met/talked to Muslims, and they said there wasn’t any problem”), while HG’s response is how Egyptian Christians and others actually experience Islam today, and for 1400 years or so. It’s a point I’ve been trying to make since long before I became Coptic Orthodox: Nobody but an extremist nutcase would want to be friends with another extremist nutcase…so it doesn’t have to be everybody, but everybody is affected by it. And with Islam, the lunatics are running the asylum, whether we’re talking about Egypt or the USA or wherever. Sweep it under the rug, guys…there are enough “good ones” to keep everyone focused on that, while Christians and others (Yazidis in Iraq, Jews everywhere, etc.) can be dealt with by the ‘extremists’.
No politician will ever look deep enough at the reality on the ground unless they actually come from such a society (and very few in the USA actually do; for example, California congresswoman Anna Eshoo is Assyrian-American, but she is the only one). Politicians are absolutely useless. They won’t do anything to reverse popular (wrong) opinion because it will be seen as pandering to special interests, and after all, in an increasingly secular(izing) society, why should we care about Christians in particular at all? That’s discriminatory, to a lot of people.
Listen very closely to HG Bishop Thomas of Qena’s reply to a fancy American researcher’s question about extremist Islam in Egypt. The American researcher’s question is a lot like how most Americans look at Islam and extremism (e.g., “I know/met/talked to Muslims, and they said there wasn’t any problem”), while HG’s response is how Egyptian Christians and others actually experience Islam today, and for 1400 years or so. It’s a point I’ve been trying to make since long before I became Coptic Orthodox: Nobody but an extremist nutcase would want to be friends with another extremist nutcase…so it doesn’t have to be everybody, but everybody is affected by it. And with Islam, the lunatics are running the asylum, whether we’re talking about Egypt or the USA or wherever. Sweep it under the rug, guys…there are enough “good ones” to keep everyone focused on that, while Christians and others (Yazidis in Iraq, Jews everywhere, etc.) can be dealt with by the ‘extremists’.
No politician will ever look deep enough at the reality on the ground unless they actually come from such a society (and very few in the USA actually do; for example, California congresswoman Anna Eshoo is Assyrian-American, but she is the only one). Politicians are absolutely useless. They won’t do anything to reverse popular (wrong) opinion because it will be seen as pandering to special interests, and after all, in an increasingly secular(izing) society, why should we care about Christians in particular at all? That’s discriminatory, to a lot of people.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Politicians only cares about popular opinion so they can get reelected. This is the biggest failure of the democratic system, the fact that leadership has devolved into a popularity contest.Perhaps, but even more scary is the idea that many have probably legitimately embraced the idea popular in the media and academia that all religions are to be treated equally, as they are all paths to God, and hence if there seems to be any problem with one in particular, it the result of hijacking fanatics or something. They say this in English, but the actual fanatics say what they do largely in Arabic, so nobody knows any better…except for the Middle Eastern Christians, who are often treated as though they are being intentionally deceptive or acting out a case of “sour grapes” (y’know, “our society was once Christian and now it’s not, and we’re sad and angry about that so we’re going to lie to people” or something like that). As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water…
Listen very closely to HG Bishop Thomas of Qena’s reply to a fancy American researcher’s question about extremist Islam in Egypt. The American researcher’s question is a lot like how most Americans look at Islam and extremism (e.g., “I know/met/talked to Muslims, and they said there wasn’t any problem”), while HG’s response is how Egyptian Christians and others actually experience Islam today, and for 1400 years or so. It’s a point I’ve been trying to make since long before I became Coptic Orthodox: Nobody but an extremist nutcase would want to be friends with another extremist nutcase…so it doesn’t have to be everybody, but everybody is affected by it. And with Islam, the lunatics are running the asylum, whether we’re talking about Egypt or the USA or wherever. Sweep it under the rug, guys…there are enough “good ones” to keep everyone focused on that, while Christians and others (Yazidis in Iraq, Jews everywhere, etc.) can be dealt with by the ‘extremists’.
No politician will ever look deep enough at the reality on the ground unless they actually come from such a society (and very few in the USA actually do; for example, California congresswoman Anna Eshoo is Assyrian-American, but she is the only one). Politicians are absolutely useless. They won’t do anything to reverse popular (wrong) opinion because it will be seen as pandering to special interests, and after all, in an increasingly secular(izing) society, why should we care about Christians in particular at all? That’s discriminatory, to a lot of people.
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tomarin
Guest
More like it’s just outside the public’s awareness, most likely. Most of my coworkers only have the vaguest idea of who the Copts are, if they even know of them at all.
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tomarin
Guest
This is quite a common trope in the newspapers. It’s a comforting narrative, I suppose, to some.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
Well, the media too doesn’t really care about it. Media today is unreliable. They don’t want to report the news, they want to custom tailor news to a demographic for ratings. So they only report on things which they feel will get people to watch, not because there is news to report.
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Kirovsakya
Guest
Vitriol is one thing. Outright persecution is something else.
If simple vitriol is the issue at hand, the Orthodox Church’s chief detractor is the Latin Church. Likewise, the Latin Church’s chief detractors are the Protestant Churches.
The reasons are similar. Those who wish to break communion with the historic Church must formulate a compelling “reason” to do so. This is the business of the professional theologian class. Their modern equivalents are the media consultants who work for political parties. Whatever “reason” is invented becomes the official party line. The media - combined with the available technology of the day - does the rest.
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