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Isaac14
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Why do other Catholics, including your clergy, not reach the same conclusion as you as to whether, I and all my fellow Orthodox are condemned to hell?
Does the Pope have supreme universal jurisdiction over the Eastern Churches?
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ziapueblo
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I’m not saying anything about charity or the charitable works of Roman Catholics around the world (my parents work very closely with the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal) but historically, in some cases, not all and not most, Easterners spiritual heritage was lost in a forceful manner or other tactics, and that is upsetting to us.
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steve-b
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I’m not your judge. By showing you references, properly referenced, and with authority, then take the information as you will.steve-b:
Why do other Catholics, including your clergy, not reach the same conclusion as you as to whether, I and all my fellow Orthodox are condemned to hell?
I like the example from Ezekiel
Using Ez 3:17-21 , and let’s say A=Catholic, B = anybody doing wrong, Life=heaven, Death=hell,
here’s 4 potential scenarios using Ezekiel ( all paraphrasing mine
)- “If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.” . IOW A gives B no warning. A & B are both screwed. Both die
- “But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life.” . IOW A gives B warning. B ignores the warning. A lives B is screwed.
- “if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.” . IOW A gives B no warning. A is screwed. B is being B and is screwed and ALSO, his good works are not remembered
- "Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.” . IOW A warns B and B listens and changes, A & B live
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Isaac14
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Why do other Catholics, including your clergy, read the same canons and scriptures and not come to the conclusion that orthodox are condemned to hell?
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ziapueblo
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“We gather from many other indications that Latin missionaries devote thought and care to destroying or at least weakening the Oriental rite in the course of converting Orientals from the error of schism to the unity of the Holy Catholic Religion; they induce Oriental Catholics to embrace the Latin rite…” (Pope Benedict XIV, Allatae Sunt, July 26, 1755.)
This is why Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical Orientalium Dignitas states, “Any Latin rite missionary, whether of the secular or religious clergy, who induces with his advice or assistance any Eastern rite faithful to transfer to the Latin rite, will be deposed and excluded from his benefice in addition to the ipso facto suspension a divinis and other punishments that he will incur as imposed in the aforesaid Constitution Demandatam. That this decree stand fixed and lasting We order a copy of it be posted openly in the churches of the Latin rite.”
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This is why Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical Orientalium Dignitas states, “Any Latin rite missionary, whether of the secular or religious clergy, who induces with his advice or assistance any Eastern rite faithful to transfer to the Latin rite, will be deposed and excluded from his benefice in addition to the ipso facto suspension a divinis and other punishments that he will incur as imposed in the aforesaid Constitution Demandatam. That this decree stand fixed and lasting We order a copy of it be posted openly in the churches of the Latin rite.”
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steve-b
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My quotes came from Church documents and scripture.steve-b:
Why do other Catholics, including your clergy, not reach the same conclusion as you as to whether, I and all my fellow Orthodox are condemned to hell?
Turn this argument around. Quote for me a Church document, that says a Catholic can leave the Catholic Church, become Orthodox of some stripe, and there is zero consequences for their soul. Salvation is NOT an issue. Please quote the document.
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ChristMyLife
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The official Catholic position is that the Eastern Orthodox are a group of particular Catholic Churches which are not in communion with the rest of the larger Catholic Universal Church.
So in other words, the EO are in a state of material schism - meaning they are out of communion with Rome, but individual Orthodox are not guilty of the sin of schism (unless they adopt a schismatic attitude and actively work against reunion of the Churches. There are, unfortunately, some formal schismatics in Orthodoxy - that means individual Orthodox who are guilty of a direct sin against the Body of Christ, ripping and tearing at the Lord).
From what I see Isaac, you seem to be a sincere Orthodox Christian who has a desire for Christian unity and is living an honest life of faith. If I were to guess, I’d say you’re heavenbound.
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Isaac14
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No. As you well know, I was never Catholic, but chose to become Orthodox having been Lutheran. You have never stated that my interpretation of the sources you’ve provided that I am condemned to hell for being Orthodox is wrong. Another Catholic just contradicted you. Are your fellow Catholics wrong?
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steve-b
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In that document, http://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13orient.htm, “rite” was mentioned 59 times. Should there be any confusion, the encyclical protects Eastern Catholic rites.
Who’s arguing otherwise?
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ChristMyLife
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That’s a definite plus because you left a communion with no priesthood and no true Sacraments to join a real Catholic Church with valid Apostolic succession, a true Ekklesia gathered around a validly ordained Bishop, living and gaining grace off the Sacred Mysteries.
Honestly, if you’re in an EO community where you’re happy, and you have friendly relations with Catholics and sincerely desire unity and healing of the Schism - I would rather if you remained where you are rather than convert to an Eastern Catholic or the Roman Church.
There need to be people IN the EO ranks who desire and work for reunion for it to happen.
So stay where you are. Try to learn about the Latin theological tradition.
I recommend you read this article: https://heroicvirtuecreations.com/2012/11/26/an-eastern-orthodox-christian-looks-west/
It’s about an Orthodox Christian describing how he’s reconciled with Rome in his heart, so at least for him personally, the Schism is healed.
I’m in the same boat - I’ve reconciled with the Orthodox in my heart, I don’t recognize any schism between us. I only get upset when I come across EO who reject me and condemn me as a Western Latin schismatic heretic without even understanding me, my traditions, or apparently even their own Church.
It seems many in both the Catholic and Orthodox episcopate have adopted similar attitudes as me and the fella in that article… Not least of which, I’m fairly certain this is how both Pope Francis and Patriarch Bartholomew view each other. Not as leaders of rival Churches, but as brothers in the Catholic Christian faith.
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ChristMyLife
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Please drop it Steve.just saw that. Stay tuned
Can’t you see I’m trying to build a bridge here? Why must you insist on destruction?
You know, it’s ALSO possible for individual CATHOLICS to be guilty of the sin of schism, right? IMO, you’re treading close.
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twf
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Our friend has a very black and white approach to apologetics that might serve him well with fundamentalist Protestants, but is completely out of place in the context of Catholic - Orthodox dialogue.
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Isaac14
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For being Orthodox I don’t disagree. For not being willing to look away from the train wreck that is parts of this thread, that remains to be seen.
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ChristMyLife
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I think you’re onto something.
Steve, you do seem to be using apologetics which are better suited to anti-Catholic Protestants.
Your methodology is way outta line for interacting with an Orthodox, and in fact you’re probably doing the opposite of what you want to do (spread the truth and draw people to Christ and salvation).
I recommend to you in the strongest terms that you do some prayer and meditation with the VII Document on Ecumenism “Unitatis Redintegratio.”
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Don_Ruggero
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This forum, fortunately, has a mechanism for when people are being attacked, such as the Eastern Christians have been in this thread…and recourse to that mechanism should be used so that authorities can examine what is happening.
When I think back to all I have seen and can witness to in my life…from the meeting of Pope Saint Paul VI with Athenagoras – do you know that there was a young cleric, he was deacon if I still remember, who was in the Patriarch’s entourage? That deacon is now Patriarch Bartholomew…down to the present day, we have made such progress in everything that matters. More than I could have dreamed of in the 1960s.
Naysayers are simply to be set aside.
Yes, over the course of the many years, I have met Orthodox of unfortunate mindsets. I vividly remember one Orthodox monk screaming at me when I was on a visit to the Holy Land…20 years ago or perhaps more. As his abbot could not manage to gain control of the man, the police present intervened and took him away. I have no idea whether he was allowed to remain as a monk or not. I wouldn’t bother asking. I still pray for him but otherwise, he is someone undeserving of even being heard or adverted to. The work of bringing our apostolic Churches back into full communion is too important to have the distraction of such a inconsequential troublemaker.
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Don_Ruggero
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Indeed.
It also violates the dispositive norms in The Directory for Applications and Principles and Norms on Ecumenism.
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Don_Ruggero
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As a priest, I am happy to answer that question for you, Isaac14.
It is precisely because we are clergy. We are ordained after years of formation and preparation for the sacred ministry. We are not Catholic lay people who completely lack that intellectual and spiritual and pastoral formation for undertaking the sacred ministry which, in these times, according to the norms of Unitatis Redintegration and the Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism, documents among many others of the last 55 years which articulate the Occidental Church’s efforts to heal the rupture in communion suffered with the Churches of the East and of the Orient.
Any Catholic who does not faithfully echo the voice of the Holy See of today…of the Popes since Vatican II…of the dicasteries which currently serve the Vicar of Christ…should not be listened to. That is a very simple but effective solution to your conundrum.
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ziapueblo
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I known Pope Leo XIII encyclical protects the Eastern Churches. That’s why I posted it.
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Don_Ruggero
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Indeed. I think it worth quoting a speech of Pope Saint John Paul II in its entirety, with a few highlights.
Friday, 4 May 2001
ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II
TO HIS BEATITUDE CHRISTODOULOS,
ARCHBISHOP OF ATHENS AND PRIMATE OF GREECE
Your Beatitude,
Venerable Members of the Holy Synod,
Most Reverend Bishops of the Orthodox Church of Greece ,
Christòs anèsti!
1 - In the joy of Easter, I greet you with the words of the Apostle Paul to the Church in Thessalonica: " May the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times and in every way " ( 2 Th 3:16).
It gives me great pleasure to meet Your Beatitude in this Primatial See of the Orthodox Church of Greece. I offer heartfelt greetings to the members of the Holy Synod and all the hierarchy. I salute the clergy, the monastic communities and the lay faithful throughout this noble land. Peace be with you all!
2 - I wish first of all to express to you the affection and regard of the Church of Rome. Together we share the apostolic faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour; we have in common the apostolic heritage and the sacramental bond of Baptism; and therefore we are all members of God’s family, called to serve the one Lord and to proclaim his Gospel to the world. The Second Vatican Council called on Catholics to regard the members of the other Churches “as brothers and sisters in the Lord” (Unitatis Redintegratio, 3), and this supernatural bond of brotherhood between the Church of Rome and the Church of Greece is strong and abiding.
Certainly, we are burdened by past and present controversies and by enduring misunderstandings. But in a spirit of mutual charity these can and must be overcome, for that is what the Lord asks of us. Clearly there is a need for a liberating process of purification of memory . For the occasions past and present, when sons and daughters of the Catholic Church have sinned by action or omission against their Orthodox brothers and sisters, may the Lord grant us the forgiveness we beg of him.
Some memories are especially painful, and some events of the distant past have left deep wounds in the minds and hearts of people to this day. I am thinking of the disastrous sack of the imperial city of Constantinople, which was for so long the bastion of Christianity in the East. It is tragic that the assailants, who had set out to secure free access for Christians to the Holy Land, turned against their own brothers in the faith. The fact that they were Latin Christians fills Catholics with deep regret. How can we fail to see here the mysterium iniquitatis at work in the human heart? To God alone belongs judgement, and therefore we entrust the heavy burden of the past to his endless mercy, imploring him to heal the wounds which still cause suffering to the spirit of the Greek people. Together we must work for this healing if the Europe now emerging is to be true to its identity, which is inseparable from the Christian humanism shared by East and West.
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Don_Ruggero
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cont’d
3 - At this meeting, I also wish to assure Your Beatitude that the Church of Rome looks with unaffected admiration to the Orthodox Church of Greece for the way in which she has preserved her heritage of faith and Christian life. The name of Greece resounds wherever the Gospel is preached. The names of her cities are known to Christians everywhere from the reading of the Acts of the Apostles and the Letters of Saint Paul . From the Apostolic era until now, the Orthodox Church of Greece has been a rich source from which the Church of the West too has drawn for her liturgy, spirituality and jurisprudence (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio , 14). A patrimony of the whole Church are the Fathers, privileged interpreters of the apostolic tradition , and the Councils, whose teachings are a binding element of all Christian faith . The universal Church can never forget what Greek Christianity has given her, nor cease to give thanks for the enduring influence of the Greek tradition.
The Second Vatican Council stressed to Catholics the Orthodox love of the liturgy, through which the faithful “enter into communion with the Most Holy Trinity and become sharers in the divine nature” ( Unitatis Redintegratio, 15). In offering liturgical worship pleasing to God through the centuries, in preaching the Gospel even in dark and difficult times, in presenting an unfailing didaskalia, inspired by the Scriptures and the great Tradition of the Church, the Orthodox Church of Greece has brought forth a host of saints who intercede for all God’s People before the Throne of Grace. In the saints we see the ecumenism of holiness which, with God’s help, will eventually draw us into full communion, which is neither absorption nor fusion but a meeting in truth and love (cf. Slavorum Apostoli , 27).
4 - Finally, Your Beatitude, I wish to express the hope that we may walk together in the ways of the Kingdom of God. In 1965, the Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras and Pope Paul VI by a mutual act removed and cancelled from the Church’s memory and life the sentence of excommunication between Rome and Constantinople. This historic gesture stands as a summons for us to work ever more fervently for the unity which is Christ’s will . Division between Christians is a sin before God and a scandal before the world. It is a hindrance to the spread of the Gospel, because it makes our proclamation less credible. The Catholic Church is convinced that she must do all in her power to “prepare the way of the Lord” and to “make straight his paths” ( Mt 3:3); and she understands that this must be done in company with other Christians – in fraternal dialogue, in cooperation and in prayer. If certain models of reunion of the past no longer correspond to the impulse towards unity which the Holy Spirit has awakened in Christians everywhere in recent times, we must be all the more open and attentive to what the Spirit is now saying to the Churches (cf. Rev 2:11).
3 - At this meeting, I also wish to assure Your Beatitude that the Church of Rome looks with unaffected admiration to the Orthodox Church of Greece for the way in which she has preserved her heritage of faith and Christian life. The name of Greece resounds wherever the Gospel is preached. The names of her cities are known to Christians everywhere from the reading of the Acts of the Apostles and the Letters of Saint Paul . From the Apostolic era until now, the Orthodox Church of Greece has been a rich source from which the Church of the West too has drawn for her liturgy, spirituality and jurisprudence (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio , 14). A patrimony of the whole Church are the Fathers, privileged interpreters of the apostolic tradition , and the Councils, whose teachings are a binding element of all Christian faith . The universal Church can never forget what Greek Christianity has given her, nor cease to give thanks for the enduring influence of the Greek tradition.
The Second Vatican Council stressed to Catholics the Orthodox love of the liturgy, through which the faithful “enter into communion with the Most Holy Trinity and become sharers in the divine nature” ( Unitatis Redintegratio, 15). In offering liturgical worship pleasing to God through the centuries, in preaching the Gospel even in dark and difficult times, in presenting an unfailing didaskalia, inspired by the Scriptures and the great Tradition of the Church, the Orthodox Church of Greece has brought forth a host of saints who intercede for all God’s People before the Throne of Grace. In the saints we see the ecumenism of holiness which, with God’s help, will eventually draw us into full communion, which is neither absorption nor fusion but a meeting in truth and love (cf. Slavorum Apostoli , 27).
4 - Finally, Your Beatitude, I wish to express the hope that we may walk together in the ways of the Kingdom of God. In 1965, the Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras and Pope Paul VI by a mutual act removed and cancelled from the Church’s memory and life the sentence of excommunication between Rome and Constantinople. This historic gesture stands as a summons for us to work ever more fervently for the unity which is Christ’s will . Division between Christians is a sin before God and a scandal before the world. It is a hindrance to the spread of the Gospel, because it makes our proclamation less credible. The Catholic Church is convinced that she must do all in her power to “prepare the way of the Lord” and to “make straight his paths” ( Mt 3:3); and she understands that this must be done in company with other Christians – in fraternal dialogue, in cooperation and in prayer. If certain models of reunion of the past no longer correspond to the impulse towards unity which the Holy Spirit has awakened in Christians everywhere in recent times, we must be all the more open and attentive to what the Spirit is now saying to the Churches (cf. Rev 2:11).
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