Does the RCC teach that non-Catholic Christians are anathema?

[PRmerger]

Tradition is not what I believe, only the word of God,the Bible, I cannot rely on tradition, no matter who said it , or how many times or years it was said.

Ralphy, you believe in Tradition whether you like it or not, each and every time you quote Scripture.

For word of God, the Bible, did not come with a Table of Contents. You would not know that the Gospel of Matthew is theopneustos and the Gospel of Thomas is not, were it not for Tradition.

In fact, it is only because of Sacred Tradition that you would know whether these are inspired words below, or not. Some are from Scripture, some are from other ancient “religious” texts. Do you know which ones are from the Bible, ralphy (without googling, of course!)?

(The only way you know what is inspired is because the Tradition of the CC told you so!)

(answers coming, if you’re interested)

* All generations shall call me blessed!
* O you who believe! Remember God's favor to you when there came against you forces, so We sent against them a strong wind and forces which you did not see, and God is Ever- Seeing what you do.
* My breath is offensive to my wife.
* For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
* Moreover, what I have now said in regard to abstaining from wanton looks should be carefully observed, with due love for the persons and hatred of the sin, in observing, forbidding, reporting, reproving, and punishing of all other fault.
* Be appalled at this, O heavens, and shudder with great horror," declares the LORD.
* And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones.

 

[ralphy]

Ralphy, you believe in Tradition whether you like it or not, each and every time you quote Scripture.

For word of God, the Bible, did not come with a Table of Contents. You would not know that the Gospel of Matthew is theopneustos and the Gospel of Thomas is not, were it not for Tradition.

In fact, it is only because of Sacred Tradition that you would know whether these are inspired words below, or not. Some are from Scripture, some are from other ancient “religious” texts. Do you know which ones are from the Bible, ralphy (without googling, of course!)?

(The only way you know what is inspired is because the Tradition of the CC told you so!)

(answers coming, if you’re interested)

* All generations shall call me blessed!
* O you who believe! Remember God's favor to you when there came against you forces, so We sent against them a strong wind and forces which you did not see, and God is Ever- Seeing what you do.
* My breath is offensive to my wife.
* For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
* Moreover, what I have now said in regard to abstaining from wanton looks should be carefully observed, with due love for the persons and hatred of the sin, in observing, forbidding, reporting, reproving, and punishing of all other fault.
* Be appalled at this, O heavens, and shudder with great horror," declares the LORD.
* And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones.

There are a lot things I do not know, but I know that the Bible is the inspired word of God, not because of tradition, but because of 2 Tim.3:16, God Himself said it so I believe it. He is the ultimate authority, amen. In Christian love, Ralph.

 

[PRmerger]

There are a lot things I do not know, but I know that the Bible is the inspired word of God, not because of tradition, but because of 2 Tim.3:16, God Himself said it so I believe it. He is the ultimate authority, amen. In Christian love, Ralph.

Just because something says it’s inspired does not make it so! Indeed, the Koran claims to be the inspired word of God, too.

Whether you like it or not, ralphy, each and every time you quote Scripture it’s because you’re acknowledging the authority of Sacred Tradition. You are NOT going by the Bible alone, because the Bible does not say, “The Gospel of Mark is inspired but the Gospel of Thomas is not.”

You need Tradition for that.

 

[ralphy]

Just because something says it’s inspired does not make it so! Indeed, the Koran claims to be the inspired word of God, too.

Whether you like it or not, ralphy, each and every time you quote Scripture it’s because you’re acknowledging the authority of Sacred Tradition. You are NOT going by the Bible alone, because the Bible does not say, “The Gospel of Mark is inspired but the Gospel of Thomas is not.”

You need Tradition for that.

I can’t seem to make you understand, I quote scripture because it “is” the WORD of GOD, I have no authority of myself. What is the Gospel of Thomas, and where did you find it. I acknowledge no tradition, as that is of man.
Your first quote in your answer said " just because something says it’s inspired" does not make it so. This statement is very disrespectful, the person who said this is God himself. Do you believe that the Bible is inspired. In Christian love, Ralph

 

[PRmerger]

I can’t seem to make you understand, I quote scripture because it “is” the WORD of GOD, I have no authority of myself.

I have no disagreement with you that Scripture IS the Word of God. On that point, ralphy, we are agreed.

What you are not understanding is that it is through Tradition–the Sacred Tradition of the CC–that you know which of these are the Word of God, and which are not.

• All generations shall call me blessed!
• O you who believe! Remember God’s favor to you when there came against you forces, so We sent against them a strong wind and forces which you did not see, and God is Ever- Seeing what you do.
• My breath is offensive to my wife.
• For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
• Moreover, what I have now said in regard to abstaining from wanton looks should be carefully observed, with due love for the persons and hatred of the sin, in observing, forbidding, reporting, reproving, and punishing of all other fault.
• Be appalled at this, O heavens, and shudder with great horror," declares the LORD.
• And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard thing except for the humble ones.

[SIGN]It is only because the Tradition of the Church told you which of those are inspired and which are not. [/SIGN]

 

[PRmerger]

Your first quote in your answer said " just because something says it’s inspired" does not make it so. This statement is very disrespectful, the person who said this is God himself.

Again, just because something says it’s inspired does not make it so. That would mean you have to accept any ancient text that claims it’s the word of God, by the sole reason that it says “This writing is inspired.”

And to say that my statement is “disrespectful” is getting quite close to bibliolatry, ralphy. That is, worshiping the Bible over God Himself.

Do you believe that the Bible is inspired. In Christian love, Ralph

Yes, on that we are agreed, ralphy.

 

[ralphy]

Again, just because something says it’s inspired does not make it so. That would mean you have to accept any ancient text that claims it’s the word of God, by the sole reason that it says “This writing is inspired.”

And to say that my statement is “disrespectful” is getting quite close to bibliolatry, ralphy. That is, worshiping the Bible over God Himself.

Yes, on that we are agreed, ralphy.

I see that you will totally stick to your own beliefs, and ignore the Bible which is the inspired word of God, regardless of what is written there. I do not worship the Bible, for it is merely a book, but I do worship the Author. I suggest to you that you had better take heed to scripture, as you will be judged by the word of God in the end, and you will not be able to claim ignorance at that time. I will pray for you, but I may not have any further discussion with you on the internet.
In Christian love, Ralph

 

[PRmerger]

but I may not have any further discussion with you on the internet.
In Christian love, Ralph

I hope that will not happen, ralphy.

But I suspected this was coming.

It seems to be a common dismissal by non-Catholics when the argument provided by the Church cannot be refuted. Rather than address the argument itself, non-Catholics will leave the argument.

You have no way to respond to the above discussion–there is simply no way to read an ancient text and say, “This is inspired”…EXCEPT FOR THE TRADITION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Thus, were it not for the CC you would not know which of these is inspired and which of these is man-made:

-The Lord said to the disciples, “…] from every house. Bring into the house of the Father. But do not take (anything) in the house of the Father nor carry it off.”

-Saul went into a cave to relieve himself.

One of those is *theopneustos. * One is not. How do you know? Only by the authority of the CC!

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Including both those born into Protestant and Orthodox families;
and those who leave Catholicism for a Protestant or Orthodox faith?

Lumen Gentium

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[JimG]

Of course he believes in Tradition, because he believes in the Bible. When Jesus ascended into heaven, he left no bible. He left no writings. He left no book. He did tell his apostles to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

But Ralphy does accept the Bible, and the fact that the books within it are inspired, and that bible came to him courtesy of the Catholic Church. If Tradition could not be trusted, neither could the compilation of the books of the bible.

 

[ralphy]

Of course he believes in Tradition, because he believes in the Bible. When Jesus ascended into heaven, he left no bible. He left no writings. He left no book. He did tell his apostles to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

But Ralphy does accept the Bible, and the fact that the books within it are inspired, and that bible came to him courtesy of the Catholic Church. If Tradition could not be trusted, neither could the compilation of the books of the bible.

I will answer all these above emails with a question which I have asked before; do you know who belongs to the true church, and how does one become a member. I would like to see some scripture on the question,and not the RCC version. Thank you. in christian love, Ralph.

 

[PRmerger]

What is the Gospel of Thomas, and where did you find it.

It is one of the ancient texts that the Catholic Church read, discerned and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, proclaimed, infallibly, via Sacred Tradition in the 5th century that it was NOT theopneustos.

If you read some of the writings from it, you would not be able to determine, based on the text, whether it was Scripture or not.

You needed the CC to do that for you.

To say, “I know what is Scripture because it is in the Bible” or “I know what’s the Word of God because it is inspired” is begging the question. It’s circular reasoning.

One cannot know what’s “in the bible” or what’s the “Word of God” unless someone else–the CC–proclaimed it to be inspired.

 

[PRmerger]

Indeed. It does seem fruitless at times as there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

But I believe that the Holy Spirit is calling us to continue to discuss and dialogue, even if it falls on a “blind” poster; there is benefit in continuing to discuss, as there are many lurkers here who may have never heard the Catholic position presented, nor heard any Catholic refute the standard Protestant objections to Catholicism. Now they know!

 

[ralphy]

By the way, I was in the RCC for 43 years, and I came out from there after I looked into the Word of God and found out the truth, the truth has set me free. You still did not answer the question as to who belongs to the true church, and how do you join, this is not a path of my own, God has made it simple in His word, check it out. In Christian love, Ralph.

 

[ralphy]

That part in the Nicene creed about baptism, can you explain what kind of baptism that is, and how it’s done. Of course when you made reference to “non-catholics” you are actually referring to a “non-RC”, for I am “catholic”, the universal version that is, and belong to the body of Christ. In Christian love, Ralph.

 

[ralphy]

I know of course that the RCC will baptize baby’s, which I fail to find in scripture. I did not know that they give communion to baby’s also, why would they do that? In christian love, Ralph.

 

[ralphy]

When I left the RCC, the only practice then, was to administer baptism to infants, nothing else, and I still find no scriptural reason for that. In Christian love, Ralph.

 

[ralphy]

It becomes more clear to me as I continue to study the Bible, just how much the RCC religion can take a young person and teach them a doctrine contrary to scripture and they will continue to defend it throughout their whole lives. The bible says that if someone comes to you with another gospel, don’t listen to him. In my opinion, the RCC has “another” gospel, which is pretty well all tradition There are so many teachings which cannot be found in scripture, I really cannot see how one can be saved, and be sure of going to heaven. I am also sure that because of the teaching you have received that you will refute this statement. In Christian love, Ralph.

 

[jlhargus]

I believe that you have a problem with this water situation, baptism by water does not take away sin, only the Blood of Christ.

JL: I believe you have the problem with scripture and this water situation. Scripture EXPLICITLY says baptism DOES remit, wash and take away sins, and 1Pt3:21 tells us baptism NOW SAVES US. Yet you HOLD FAST to your tradition of men in direct contradiction of scripture and have no scripture evidence to support your tradition of men.

How, if not thru the sacrament of baptism, is that blood applied, SHOW ME your scriptural evidence? Show me scriptural evidence baptism is a symbol only or a declaration of what has already taken place. There is no scriptural evidence, it’s only a tradition of men made a doctrine of God, by Anabaptist, in the late fifteen hundreds. Yes indeed ONLY the blood of Christ can remit, wash and take away sins, by water AND the Spirit thru BAPTISM or the sacrament of reconciliation.

[Rv 1:5 And from JESUS CHRIST, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and **WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD, 6 And hath MADE US KINGS AND PRIESTS UNTO GOD and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.]

[1Pt 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, **through SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT, unto obedience and SPRINKLING OF THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy HATH BEGOTTEN US AGAIN unto a lively hope BY THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ from the dead,] How are we sanctified of the Spirit? How are we sprinkled with the blood of Jesus? How are we begoten again by God? BAPTISM, buried and raised with Christ in baptism, thru his resurrection.

How are our sins washed away?
[Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and **BE BAPTIZED, and **WASH AWAY THY SINS]/b], calling on the name of the Lord.]

How are our sins remitted? When do we RECEIVE the Holy Spirit?
[Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE THE gift of the HOLY GHOST.]

[1Pt3:21 The like figure whereunto even **BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:]

If you do not believe this last statement, then why not baptize every person and get it over with, in that way everyone will go to heaven, right.

JL: No, it is of no use to baptise unbelievers and children who will not be raised in the faith. There is NO guarantee of salvation with baptism or anything else. Every person, who can reason, MUST live their faith and persever to the END. Adults must believe and repent of their sins. Children MUST have believing parents or guardians, to be baptized on their faith. On coming to understanding a child must accept his baptism and live his faith. BOTH adult and children MUST persever to the END to be saved. There is no such thing as once saved always saved, that’s another unscriptural tradition of men made a doctrine of God.

The RCC teaches that when a child is baptized, they are ready for heaven, they are saved, this is not true, scripture tells a different story. One must be born again to enter heaven, and baptism does not make you born again.

JL: How are children then BORN AGAIN if not baptism? Show me scripturally that, different story, I see only your story. Are children BORN AGAIN, if not, how do they enter the kingdom? Yes a baptized child is ready for heaven, so is a newly baptized adult. They have been BORN AGAIN by water AND of the Spirit, Jn3:5. That’s how our Lord, in scripture, tells us we are to be BRON AGAIN SUPERNATUALLY. I think you have a real problem with scripture. A child IS BORN naturally of flesh only, and like ALL humanity needs to be BORN AGAIN supernaturally by water AND the Spirit. SHOW ME scripture, how we are BORN AGAIN other than baptism? You can’t, that’s another tradition of men only.

 

[jlhargus]

Eph 2:8,9 will tell you how to be saved. In Christian love, Ralph.

JL: How is a child saved by Eph2:8-9? Answer, by the unmeritted grace given in the sacrament of baptism, [TITUS 3:5 NOT by WORKS…we’ve done BUT by HIS MERCY he SAVED us **BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING of the HOLY SPIRIT 6 which he POURED OUT ON US richly THROUGH JESUS Christ our Savior 7 SO we might be JUSTIFIED BY his GRACE and become HEIRS…] Baptism not only remits, washes and cleanses, of sins but regenerates our soul, by POURING OUT on us of the Holy Spirit. That indwelling Holy Spirit, justifies us by his grace making us a child of God and heirs. In baptism the body is now dead to sin, whereas before the soul was dead, and slave to the flesh. Now the body (flesh) is subject to the regenerated, Holy Spirit indwelled, regenerated soul. Now we no longer live in old Adam but are reborn into the new Adam, by the Holy Spirit indwelling our soul.

[Eph2:1 And YOU HATH HE QUICKENED, WHO WERE DEAD in trespasses and sins; [The following added by me. We were dead in sins, God brought us to life (QUICKENED), with the supernatural conception of faith, which is the free gift (grace) of God. That grace gives an adult the freedom to CHOOSE, life or death. If we choose LIFE we REPENT, are BAPTIZED for REMISSION OF SINS, RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. Thereby being BORN AGAIN by water AND the Spirit through baptism. DELIVERED a child of God in family covenant relationship, a member of the HOUSEHOLD OF GOD the Church. If we reject this conception, of faith life, we abort it, we ramain dead in our sins.] 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But GOD, who is RICH IN MERCY, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN SINS, HATH QUICKENED US TOGETHER WITH CHRIST, (by grace ye are saved) 6 AND hath RAISED US UP TOGETHER, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: [following added by me. Dead in our sins when we are buired and die with Christ in baptism and raised to new life with him thru baptism. End of my remarks] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD: 9 NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. 10 For WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS [Following added by me. How do we become a new creature? Baptism. End my remarks] UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;] There is no question we are saved by God’s grace, that free gift of God. First faith is conceived by God’s grace, we accept by God’s grace, we repent by God’s grace, we are baptized FOR remission of sins by God’s grace, we receive the Holy Spirit by God’s grace and our good works after baptism we do by God’s grace, so NO MAN can boast.

[Acts2:37 Now WHEN THEY HEARD this, THEY WERE PRICKED IN THEIR HEART, [Following added by me. When they were PRICKED in their heart, that’s when the seed (sperm) of God’s word pricked the heart (egg) and faith life was conceived. End my remarks] AND SAID unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? 38 Then PETER SAID unto them, REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE the gift of THE HOLY GHOST. THE PROMISE IS UNTO YOU, AND TO YOUR CHILDREN, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.]