Does the RCC teach that non-Catholic Christians are anathema?

[pismopal]

I have been reading this thread with interest and it is a little disturbing. I am a convert to the Catholic Faith for the past 5 years. I can understand the questioning by the person who initiated this thread. But the responses many times seem very “fundamentalist”. I had quite a bit of experience with this kind of thinking before I converted and thought that I was getting away from it, but I see it is still with me. I can understand why a person who has joined the Church might decide to leave in their seeking of God. Those of you who come from vibrant Church’s or Church groups may not understand what is out there in Catholocism. I live in the great liberal state of Oregon. I attend a couple of local rural parish’s. The sacrements are there and very important. But if you talk to many of the local parishioners about Jesus in a more personal way,or about evangilism to share the beautiful truths of the Church, you get nothing but blank looks. In many ways you can be in a spiritual desert in the Church. I know what the Church teaches, but I think we have a big God who sees beyond the teaching to the heart of the individual and then judges accordingly. Remember the story of the Samaritan and the injured man on the side of the road. The rabbi, who was well versed in the faith of the day, showed a lack of charity and walked to the other side of the road. The Samaritan, who could be equated with todays non-catholic believers who have a partial knowledge of the truth, showed love and took care of the injured person. Who lived out his faith and who did Jesus honor in this story ?

I have from time to time been discouraged by the attitude of some but thankfully not most actually. I am always however encouraged by the anchor of the unchanging truth of the Church. I refer to the Catechism often for reference but I don’t even want to know how many Catholics…let alone non Catholics actually read it. Most people would rather repeat some vague opinion they may have heard from a priest who perhaps did not understand the question than actually see the answer in print.
I understand your frustration but I know I am in the right place and I hope you feel the same way.

 

[dcastlen50]

Including both those born into Protestant and Orthodox families;
and those who leave Catholicism for a Protestant or Orthodox faith?

In my opinion, there is no better book than Peter Kreeft’s Catholic Christianity/B] to understand the Catholic Faith. It is simple, clear and not full of run-on sentences. I have never spoken to anyone who has read it that didn’t think it was the best thing since canned steak.

:blush:Thanks so much for asking about The Faith. We have had a very poor showing the last 35 years teaching the public and our own. It is very sad. But this book will make up for the mistakes of the past.

 

[EQuinn]

Hello,

The simple straight forward answer is no. Only God can judge a person’s interior motives. Church officials have the power to judge certain actions as “objectively” sinful, but this is supposed to used for the good of the person involved and for the good of the whole Church. It does not mean that they have the authority or ability to judge an individual’s motives–the “subjectivity” of their actions. Objectively wrong means that something is wrong in itself, it does not mean that the person doing the action is in the wrong.

It sounds like perhaps you poorly treated by certain individuals in the Church, perhaps even by officials who have a narrow view or simply don’t know how to explain our teachings clearly. Jesus loves you and He wants you to know the fullness of Truth. Don’t let people stand in the way of this knowledge. Several people suggested the Catechism of the Catholic Church; don’t stop there. Read books written by authentic Catholic authors, such as Fr. Hardon and many others which explain the teachings of the Church in greater detail. Fr. Alfred McBride has some goods things in this regard. The Catechism is actually rather dry and technical at points, which can make it difficult to understand. Above all continue to pray for light and perhaps attend other Catholic churches other than the one you were going to.

 

[EQuinn]

Peter Kreeft is marvelous. I am currently studying his A Shorter Summa which is an explanation of the key points of St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica.

 

[dcastlen50]

Peter Kreeft is marvelous. I am currently studying his A Shorter Summa which is an explanation of the key points of St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica.

**
Well, you need to stop reading it and buy Kreeft’s Catholic Christianity. This is an order! Get away from that computer and go immidiately to the bookstore and purchase it.**

 

[pismopal]

**
** Well, you need to stop reading it and buy Kreeft’s Catholic Christianity. This is an order! Get away from that computer and go immidiately to the bookstore and purchase it.

I just ordered “Catholic Christianity” from Amazon. Thanks for the recommendation. PS the Catechism seems a little dry…like law books and I believe it is because it IS a law book and meant to be definitive and exhaustive.

 

[Philthy]

To paraphrase Pope John Paul II
A church is judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members and among the most vulnerable those who are not.

This comment doesnt appear to have any relationship to the topic of the thread or to my request that you ask in plain English what it is you wish to know. Perhaps it is a comment directed at your perception of my comments? I have no idea! You need to try and clearly articulate what you wish to know…if, in fact, you are looking for answers.

Here, is what I believe the short answer to your unstated question is:

No, the Catholic Church doesnt condemn anyone. Final judgment is God’s alone.
The Church lets you know when you do things or fail to do things, believe things or fail to believe things, that put your soul and inheritance in the kingdom of God in jeopardy. And they do it for your benefit. Thats it - do you think they are wrong to do so?

 

[momtoo]

I am assuming that last post I read was a joke…Any who, don’t despair, lookaround, it’s all part of the “journey”. Sometimes we are called upon to go through “stuff” and go through what I refer to as “ruts”. I like having the fullness of what Christ gave us, that is why I am part of the Church. Let me say that again, “I am the Church”. Yeah. You are the Church too, if you choose to be. Do you want the fullness that Christ gave? Why settle for watered down or half measure? (hmm, there’s a song about that…) Yikes! Let me explain about me a little. I joined a forum on a site that had a lot of younger persons asking questions about religion…or really the dislike of religion…so I have tried faithfully to answer them about the Roman Catholic religion (history, no we do not worship statues, etc). I am an optimist (thank you God!!) but the ignorance of the younger generation is appalling (pray hard people!). They don’t have any history and don’t believe in religion at all. Very scary but I see it around me too in every day life. Rejection, rejection, rejection. I don’t want that for you! Or anyone. If I was in your place I would go to confession, attend Mass, receive Christ (talk to him as you go up to receive him), and pray. If you don’t feel you got enough guidance (advice) from the priest during confession, go the next week (different priest . I’d check out Scott Hahn and watch a little ewtn (they are also online). Something drew you to the Catholic Church, perhaps you will become a great teacher to those coming into the Church (a great convert, like Scott Hahn). As to your original questions, it’s simply about knowledge and repentance. No one can condemn a person, although we need to judge good and evil every day and acknowledge it for what it is. We need to pray for those we feel aren’t following a good path (even ourselves at times). And now you are going to be on my mind! This in turn will make me pray more, so thank you!

 

[lookaround]

I am assuming that last post I read was a joke…Any who, don’t despair, lookaround, it’s all part of the “journey”. Sometimes we are called upon to go through “stuff” and go through what I refer to as “ruts”. I like having the fullness of what Christ gave us, that is why I am part of the Church. Let me say that again, “I am the Church”. Yeah. You are the Church too, if you choose to be. Do you want the fullness that Christ gave? Why settle for watered down or half measure? (hmm, there’s a song about that…) Yikes! Let me explain about me a little. I joined a forum on a site that had a lot of younger persons asking questions about religion…or really the dislike of religion…so I have tried faithfully to answer them about the Roman Catholic religion (history, no we do not worship statues, etc). I am an optimist (thank you God!!) but the ignorance of the younger generation is appalling (pray hard people!). They don’t have any history and don’t believe in religion at all. Very scary but I see it around me too in every day life. Rejection, rejection, rejection. I don’t want that for you! Or anyone. If I was in your place I would go to confession, attend Mass, receive Christ (talk to him as you go up to receive him), and pray. If you don’t feel you got enough guidance (advice) from the priest during confession, go the next week (different priest . I’d check out Scott Hahn and watch a little ewtn (they are also online). Something drew you to the Catholic Church, perhaps you will become a great teacher to those coming into the Church (a great convert, like Scott Hahn). As to your original questions, it’s simply about knowledge and repentance. No one can condemn a person, although we need to judge good and evil every day and acknowledge it for what it is. We need to pray for those we feel aren’t following a good path (even ourselves at times). And now you are going to be on my mind! This in turn will make me pray more, so thank you!

thank you

 

[curtish1947]

To paraphrase Pope John Paul II
A church is judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members and among the most vulnerable those who are not.

Wow Hi,

It looks to me like you feel you are being unfairly treated for you genuine questions. It looks to me like you are asking for understanding, and are getting nothing of the same in return.

I may be wrong, but???

Well these are my thoughts to you.

Whenever God talks to a person, like Abraham, he accepts what God says as absolute truth. That is my definition of Absolute Truth.

Whenever God says this or that in the Jewish Scriptures, or the Holy Spirit brings back to memory, all that Jesus had said or done to the apostles, later some of it was written down. In The New Testament, is where Jesus talks; it is Absolute Truth also.

Saints, although not typically put this way, are sometimes priveleged by God, with typically a message or a blessing for us even in our modern times. Their own personal statements and feelings are not absolute knowlege. The message from God, or The Words of God given to them are Absolute Knowlege.

God said to Peter I give you the keys to the Kingdome of Heaven. Peter and all his followers have limited this to ex-cathedra type of rules. All of their other rules are considered to have some possible interpretational errors either by them or us. What the saints say, other than repeating the words or intentions of God, are containing some possible error is what this means.

Correctly understood, and used, the Bible is Real. Real means it is correct where it says it is correct. It is false where it says it is false. It does say that some things are false such as Job’s friends, or any words spoken by the devil. It does.​

Now, people like me, who knew virtually nothing about God, until recently have a hard time with both the wordings of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, and The Catechism. Yet, for all that difficulty, they are not wrong. It is hard to accept, but, they are not wrong.​

As a help, The Catholic Church says in effect: “Walk before me and be perfect. Where you fail, come and tell me. I will forgive you, if you are not lying about wanting to be forgiven and you wish to continue.” Now God said to Abraham: “Walk before me and be perfect.” God seems to want us to be perfect before Him. I think there is another section in The New Testament, that repeats this point made to Abraham. When those not Abraham sinned, God (Who was really present) in the Temples forgave them in an extremely exact way as is presently done in Confession. God is there, we tell Him we sinned, we offer a sacrifice. The Jews before Christ did the same. God is there, a sacrifice is offered to Him, for our sins. For awhile, just like Adam, we are sinless befor God. We are perfect for awhile before God.

That to me that is the hardest part about Catholocism. It is this call to perfection. Paul mentioned this as his experiences. Each Catholic is called by the moral and ethical and theological teachings to be perfect before God. The impossibility of this task, is handled by confession, grace, and if you are so granted a personal conversation with Jesus.

It is my understanding, the only way you can defer to perfection is if Jesus, lets you personally slide on one issue or another. I believe that is in Catholic knowlege along with the impossibility of Jesus disagreeing with one of his requests to all of us.

It is hard for me. Sometimes I just want to quit. Is that your problem also? If it is not, I spent 12 years of so trying to find something truly wrong with the Bible. After that I chose a church. I chose the church based on it’s correctness Biblically. The Baptists got a fifteen percent score Biblically. The Catholics got an eighty-five percent score back then but it is much higher now. Importantly, their Catecism has also withstood all my testing of its correctness.

Now, this will sound wrong or incredible. I had two items in the Cathechism that I was sure they were wrong on. I honestly did. God, through others, showed me how that although an honest mistake, was in fact…wrong.

That is my experience. That is what happened to me.

…Curt… (for you, please feel the reason.)

 

[dcastlen50]

I just ordered “Catholic Christianity” from Amazon. Thanks for the recommendation. PS the Catechism seems a little dry…like law books and I believe it is because it IS a law book and meant to be definitive and exhaustive.

Oh my gosh NO NO … not the first 300 paragraphs… read the first 300 paragraphs slowly… when you do this you will get 8 billion plenary indugences and a three day trip to Disney

 

[NHInsider]

I believe that I am following the teachings of the Apostles (as I presume you believe you are)

btw its hard to tell over an online forum but your responses thus far have seem somewhat condescending

I would like to apologize for appearing condescending, and appreciate your acknowledgment that tone is difficult to convey online.

I will confess that based on your original post and then your response in post #10, I thought you were going to be one of those posters who begin with what sounds like an honest inquiry, collect a bunch of what are intended to be honest answers, and then launch an attack on the Catholic Church for not teaching what the posters’ interpretations of Scripture are.

I was suspicious of your motives/intent, and that was uncharitable of me. I am sorry.

 

[Pat_De]

What is your understanding of the word anathema?

It is a word used in the early Church, and in Church Councils to mean one who is excluded from the Church due to their sin or heresy. In other words, excommunicated.

The Church does not use the term anathema anymore. It uses the term excommunicated in canon law.

Those born into non-Catholic communities cannot properly be termed “anathema” because only a Catholic can be excommunicated.

A baptized Catholic who leaves the Church and joins a Protestant sect commits heresy and one who leaves and joins the Orthodox Church commits schism. One who rejects the Christian faith (for a non-Christian faith or in favor of atheism or agnosticism) commits apostacy.

Under canon law, these incur latae sententiae excommunication-- meaning the person excommunicates themselves by the act of rejecting the Catholic Church.

Of course, excommunication can be lifted by the return and sacramental confession of the individual. Some excommunications must be lifted by the Bishop or in certain cases only the Pope.

A formal ecclesiastical curse accompanied by excommunication to be precise and is equivalent to “you’re damned you heretic”.

 

[JimG]

Anathema

 

[LTSpike]

so one yes, one no
and a maybe

Where do you get a ‘yes’ from any of those replies? Those people took the time to give you thoughtful answers, and the least you could do is take the time to actually read and try to understand them

 

[Tomb54]

As stated before Catholics are taught that we can not Judge a person for we do not have God’s knowledge to make a just judgement.

While we can say we disagree with a person actions or what they are saying but out right judgement is not ours to give (even though being weak we do this often)

I hope some people here are helping answer your questions. I have found reading the early church fathers and learning more about the Church (CCC) they speak about has helped me want to learn more what the CC actually teaches in all aspects because these ECF actually talk of the CC as the Church of Christ.

 

[zielwolf]

From my reading - No. The Church does not teach that non-Catholic Christians as such are automatically “anathema”, just by virtue of being non-Catholic.

It is not anyone’s fault that they were born into “heathenism” or “heresy”.

But the conscious and active denial of certain beliefs, such as Transubstantiation or the Sacrifice of the Mass, or the Immaculate Conception of Mary or whatever dogma you choose: whoever consciously and actively denies and defies these dogmas, they are declared anathema - that means automatic exclusion from the Church and basically, sorry, but straight to hell.

And let’s not mince words. One way or another - the manifold anathemae proclaimed by the Council of Trent stand and have never been revoked.

The reason we can communicate with Protestants is because most of them, if not pressed, wouldn’t actively defy Catholic dogma - they would accept that what the Catholic Church teaches is true for Catholics (by which we can implicitly read as signifying themselves, as they are just next door) because in any case they don’t know what the Catholic Church really teaches.

I have yet to meet a Protestant who was aware that at the heart of the dogma of the Sacrifice of the Mass is the mystical slaying of Christ through the words of consecration by the priest. That the Mass is a real sacrifice with a real effect for the atonement and remission of the penalty of sin (as opposed to the world being redeemed by Christ on Calvary) and formally distinct from the Sacrifice on the Cross.

Usually when they hear that they are horrified and defy that dogma and that is the moment they enter anathema unfortunately. So now I don’t talk about it much, because that is not where the Church is going.

So perhaps, the less we talk about the central dogmas of the Catholic Church, the better we can get along with our fellow believers.

 

[Pat_De]

I am assuming that last post I read was a joke…Any who, don’t despair, lookaround, it’s all part of the “journey”. Sometimes we are called upon to go through “stuff” and go through what I refer to as “ruts”. I like having the fullness of what Christ gave us, that is why I am part of the Church. Let me say that again, “I am the Church”. Yeah. You are the Church too, if you choose to be. Do you want the fullness that Christ gave? Why settle for watered down or half measure? (hmm, there’s a song about that…) Yikes! Let me explain about me a little. I joined a forum on a site that had a lot of younger persons asking questions about religion…or really the dislike of religion…so I have tried faithfully to answer them about the Roman Catholic religion (history, no we do not worship statues, etc). I am an optimist (thank you God!!) but the ignorance of the younger generation is appalling (pray hard people!). They don’t have any history and don’t believe in religion at all. Very scary but I see it around me too in every day life. Rejection, rejection, rejection. I don’t want that for you! Or anyone. If I was in your place I would go to confession, attend Mass, receive Christ (talk to him as you go up to receive him), and pray. If you don’t feel you got enough guidance (advice) from the priest during confession, go the next week (different priest . I’d check out Scott Hahn and watch a little ewtn (they are also online). Something drew you to the Catholic Church, perhaps you will become a great teacher to those coming into the Church (a great convert, like Scott Hahn). As to your original questions, it’s simply about knowledge and repentance. No one can condemn a person, although we need to judge good and evil every day and acknowledge it for what it is. We need to pray for those we feel aren’t following a good path (even ourselves at times). And now you are going to be on my mind! This in turn will make me pray more, so thank you!

You say “we do not worship statues” etc; that may be true for you , but not for the vast majority of Catholics. Look up worship in the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia and common sense and then see how veneration is synonymous with worship, which violates the law of God. You will see that those young people who don’t know what the church teaches; you will find the same about yourself in regards to worship as an example among others. As Ripley would have said “Believe it or not”

Religion saved how many people? Another example of what I am speaking of. It is Christ and Christ alone that has ever saved a single human being and Jesus Christ is not a religion.

Just a few pointers, nothing personal I promise.

 

[NHInsider]

I have yet to meet a Protestant who was aware that at the heart of the dogma of the Sacrifice of the Mass is the mystical slaying of Christ through the words of consecration by the priest. That the Mass is a real sacrifice with a real effect for the atonement and remission of the penalty of sin (as opposed to the world being redeemed by Christ on Calvary) and formally distinct from the Sacrifice on the Cross.

The Mass is the re-presentation of the One Holy Sacrifice on the Cross, who died once for all (1 Peter 3:18, CCC 1367). I don’t know where you got “mystical slaying of Christ” and “formally distinct from the Sacrifice on the Cross” but it’s not doctrine.

 

[NHInsider]

You say “we do not worship statues” etc; that may be true for you , but not for the vast majority of Catholics. Look up worship in the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia and common sense and then see how veneration is synonymous with worship, which violates the law of God. You will see that those young people who don’t know what the church teaches; you will find the same about yourself in regards to worship as an example among others. As Ripley would have said “Believe it or not”

Religion saved how many people? Another example of what I am speaking of. It is Christ and Christ alone that has ever saved a single human being and Jesus Christ is not a religion.

Just a few pointers, nothing personal I promise.

No, Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Head of the Church, which He established and to which He gave authority. The fact that individual members of the Body are idiots or hypocrits or henious sinners does not obviate the facts.

And the fact that you, or some person in Timbuctu, or even a priest you know, doesn’t understand the difference between veneration and worship doesn’t mean there isn’t a difference. For millenia everyone believed the world was flat - that didn’t make it flat. Things that are objective true are true even if NO ONE knows it.