Does the structure of the sacrament of Reconciliation lead to scrupulosity?

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I am not convinced there are as many scrupulous people as this website would have one believe.

I do think there are a lot of people who lack any proper direction and who desperately need it. They seek it where they can find it but, unfortunately, our priests ARE overworked and probably not prepared to deal with several generations of people who have lacked proper family support and guidance. 🤷
 
I am not convinced there are as many scrupulous people as this website would have one believe.
I don’t know that anyone is trying to say there are a lot of people suffering from Scrupulosity, though I think that this site (and maybe other Catholic sites too) might give that impression because people who suffer from Scrupulosity are looking for validation/help/guidance.
I do think there are a lot of people who lack any proper direction and who desperately need it. They seek it where they can find it but, unfortunately, our priests ARE overworked and probably not prepared to deal with several generations of people who have lacked proper family support and guidance. 🤷
I agree with this.
But I’m not sure that the “good ole days” were necessarily better…

Peace
James
 
I, too, have suffered from mild to moderate scrupulosity since converting to Catholicism. However, I think a few points might be helpful to clarify.

There’s different types of scrupulosity that can affect a person. The actual concept of “scrupulosity” simply means not being able to tell whether an act is sinful or not, and the torture that goes along with the doubt of the mercy of God. When I was Mormon, I also suffered from scrupulosity. I often was convinced that I was not going to go to heaven (Celestial Kingdom) because I forgot to repent for something quite small in the bigger scheme of things, such as drinking a glass of tea.

Some people suffer a form of scrupulosity that makes them believe, say, that if they accidentally ingested some lipstick before Mass that they broke their fast and would be ineligible to receive. Others have a form where they believe that they must repeat a prayer over and over again until it is “perfect” in motivation, or words, or inflection, or “feeling”. Others, like me, are tormented with unwanted thoughts and have a distinct problem being able to tell if these repetitive thoughts are in fact encouraged or welcomed due to the fact that they are so frequent.

The most significant step that has helped me with my scruples is to come into a relationship with a confessor that understands scrupulosity and who is willing to teach me the steps to reign in those scrupulous tendencies. My confessor has bound me to what he calls “The Rule” - if in good conscience I cannot put my hand on a bible and swear that a certain action or thought is sin, it is not a sin. If I know that it is a sin, but can’t put my hand on a bible and swear that it is a mortal sin (i.e. that I deliberately looked at God and said, “I know your will, but I choose to turn away from it”), then it is a venial sin. Instead of getting in a cycle of examining my conscience constantly, I simply use this rule to evaluate each questionable action as it happens. Now, because I have formed a specific and consensual relationship with my confessor, he has bound me to this rule with the understanding that if I use this rule and cannot tell if something is a sin or not, it is not a sin and the confessor is held responsible for the action and I am not to worry about it any more after that point. I have to have full trust and obedience in my confessor for this to work. As he says, “he’s a professional, he does this for a living.”

I also have an amazing spiritual director who has given me a couple of very concrete steps that stop my scruples in their tracks. For example, to stop that loop of repetitive and negative thought by simply saying, “No, I am not going to think about that.” and then saying a simple prayer of spiritual communion “Jesus, come into my heart” and taking 5-10 seconds to put myself in the presence of God in simple meditation. Sometimes, when the thoughts come in wave after wave, I may do this a dozen or more times in a single hour. But taking that action to stop the thought cycle and redirect my thought energies towards God makes a HUGE difference in being able to stop the mental cycle of scrupulosity.

Reading St. Francis de Sales lately has helped me realize that many of the issues I have suffered with in my scrupulosity are not only common, but very much not sinful at all. Let me give you an example from “Introduction to Devout Life” (emphasis mine):
Picture to yourself a young princess beloved of her husband, to whom some evil wretch should send a messenger to tempt her to infidelity. First, the messenger would bring forth his propositions. Secondly, the princess would either accept or reject the overtures. Thirdly, she would consent to them or refuse them. Even so, when Satan, the world, and the flesh look upon a soul espoused to the Son of God, they set temptations and suggestions before that soul, whereby—1. Sin is proposed to it. 2. Which proposals are either pleasing or displeasing to the soul. 3. The soul either consents, or rejects them. In other words, the three downward steps of temptation, delectation, and consent. And although the three steps may not always be so clearly defined as in this illustration, they are to be plainly traced in all great and serious sins.
If we should undergo the temptation to every sin whatsoever during our whole life, that would not damage us in the Sight of God’s Majesty, provided we took no pleasure in it, and did not consent to it; and that because in temptation we do not act, we only suffer, and inasmuch as we take no delight in it, we can be liable to no blame. … Be then very courageous amid temptation, and never imagine yourself conquered so long as it is displeasing to you, ever bearing in mind the difference between experiencing and consenting to temptation,that whereas they may be experienced while most displeasing to us, we can never consent to them without taking pleasure in them, inasmuch as pleasure felt in a temptation is usually the first step towards consent. So let the enemies of our salvation spread as many snares and wiles in our way as they will, let them besiege the door of our heart perpetually, let them ply us with endless proposals to sin,—**so long as we abide in our firm resolution to take no pleasure therein, we cannot offend God **.
As with all advice, YMMV, and I would highly recommend finding a confessor who is trained in dealing with a scrupulous nature and working with him to help to tame your scruples if you do suffer from them. The peace I have found from helping to control my scruples has helped me take a very valuable step in my spiritual life.
 
I don’t know that anyone is trying to say there are a lot of people suffering from Scrupulosity, though I think that this site (and maybe other Catholic sites too) might give that impression because people who suffer from Scrupulosity are looking for validation/help/guidance.

I agree with this.
But I’m not sure that the “good ole days” were necessarily better…

Peace
James
Neither am I in all honesty. I have family members from the ‘good ole days’ and I think I can say with all confidence that every generation has it’s problems. We have not had and can not have an ideal society. It’s just not possible in this life…

Still, I do think the breakdown of the family has contributed to many peoples anxieties and problems.

What I meant by this site would you have believe there are many people with scruples is that anytime I see a thread where a person is struggling with sin there is inevitably someone to say; you are scrupulous. :rolleyes: It seems like a person can’t ask; is this a sin? Without being called scrupulous around here. I suppose all Christians are just supposed to know what is sinful and what isn’t? Which means I’m a pretty lousy Christian because I’m still figuring that out. Haha.
 
I think there may be contributing factors. The list/number approach; the use of anonymous confession, and the mortal/venial distinction come to mind. They all seem to emphasize the external reality of the sin without getting to what it means to the person involved, and how it fits into his spiritual journey and relationship with God. A person prone to being scrupulous can easily imagine that one mortal sin from the big list of mortal sins could tip him over into being outside of Grace, despite his individual circumstances or the rest of his relationship with God.

And not knowing, or being able to discuss, with the confessor makes it worse, because then maybe the confessor never picks up on the problem either.
 
I think there may be contributing factors. The list/number approach; the use of anonymous confession, and the mortal/venial distinction come to mind. They all seem to emphasize the external reality of the sin without getting to what it means to the person involved, and how it fits into his spiritual journey and relationship with God. A person prone to being scrupulous can easily imagine that one mortal sin from the big list of mortal sins could tip him over into being outside of Grace, despite his individual circumstances or the rest of his relationship with God.

And not knowing, or being able to discuss, with the confessor makes it worse, because then maybe the confessor never picks up on the problem either.
Just a note, I see you’re Anglican, and perhaps you don’t know but Catholics have the option to confess anonymously or face-to-face these days. I use face-to-face, and use the same confessor. So the traps you mention can be avoided. I tend to agree that a strict legalistic approach to sin and confession is not healing but can exacerbate the feeling of being beyond salvation, and this seems particularly true for those with psychological or mental health issues or even hard-to-break habits.
 
Just a note, I see you’re Anglican, and perhaps you don’t know but Catholics have the option to confess anonymously or face-to-face these days. I use face-to-face, and use the same confessor. So the traps you mention can be avoided. I tend to agree that a strict legalistic approach to sin and confession is not healing but can exacerbate the feeling of being beyond salvation, and this seems particularly true for those with psychological or mental health issues or even hard-to-break habits.
Yes, i realize Catholics may confess face to face these days. Although I think having the option, many may choose anonymous confession as it seems less embarrassing. Also, given the short times available in some parishes for confession, i wonder if people are always actually given the option to choose.

I don’t know - in anglican confession (which has its own issues as it is optional) the emphasis seems mostly to be on realizing that one’s forgiveness has already been accomplished, and so the point is to a large degree our turning towards God and allowing ourselves to be healed. So digging down into the causes of our sins, taking seriously even minor but habitual sins, and less emphasis on penance, as if what we do is somehow going to free us. And from what I understand these things are allso true in the Orthodox Church.

I haven’t heard of people suffering from scrupulocity in the same way among those groups, and I tend to think it has to do with the format as much as anything. Anglicans of course often suffer from laxity, but the OC seems to have found a good balance.
 
I don’t know - in Anglican confession (which has its own issues as it is optional) the emphasis seems mostly to be on realizing that one’s forgiveness has already been accomplished, and so the point is to a large degree our turning towards God and allowing ourselves to be healed. So digging down into the causes of our sins, taking seriously even minor but habitual sins, and less emphasis on penance, as if what we do is somehow going to free us. And from what I understand these things are allso true in the Orthodox Church.

I haven’t heard of people suffering from scrupulocity in the same way among those groups, and I tend to think it has to do with the format as much as anything. Anglicans of course often suffer from laxity, but the OC seems to have found a good balance.
This fits well with something I heard a long time ago on “The Journey Home” program where a convert from Anglicanism mentioned these same things. In fact he related that occasionally a Catholic (some visitor to the area) would mistake the church for Catholic, come in for confession and they would be immediately known by the priest because of how they confessed…
Very differently from the Anglican form.

Peace
James
 
The sacrament of confession is primarily for the forgiveness of sins. Spiritual advice and direction is useful but secondary. And therapeutic conversation should be done outside of confession.

If priests had all the time in the world it might be different, but they don’t, and are usually overworked.

I imagine that if every person with even a bit of scrupulosity took all the time they wanted in confession, a great many of the faithful would have no opportunity for confession at all.

In my parish, confessions are heard for 30 minutes before weekday afternoon Mass, plus for an hour on Saturdays. So every day plus Saturday there’s opportunity for confession, and quite often it’s difficult to get all the confessions heard within the allotted time.

I usually go on weekdays. When someone in front of me in line takes an inordinate amount of time in the confessional, people get nervous, because they may be left standing there when the priest has to start Mass.

So, the sacrament is for forgiveness of sins. It doesn’t take long to confess sins. Sins usually have one word names—adultery, stealing, anger, theft, masturbation, pornography, and it doesn’t take long to confess even years worth of sins. “i.e., missed Mass every week for 30 years; fornicated at least twice a week for 20 years.”

Absolution forgives it all. The therapy is in being forgiven, not in the talking.
 
The sacrament of confession is primarily for the forgiveness of sins. Spiritual advice and direction is useful but secondary. And therapeutic conversation should be done outside of confession.

If priests had all the time in the world it might be different, but they don’t, and are usually overworked.

I imagine that if every person with even a bit of scrupulosity took all the time they wanted in confession, a great many of the faithful would have no opportunity for confession at all.

In my parish, confessions are heard for 30 minutes before weekday afternoon Mass, plus for an hour on Saturdays. So every day plus Saturday there’s opportunity for confession, and quite often it’s difficult to get all the confessions heard within the allotted time.

I usually go on weekdays. When someone in front of me in line takes an inordinate amount of time in the confessional, people get nervous, because they may be left standing there when the priest has to start Mass.

So, the sacrament is for forgiveness of sins. It doesn’t take long to confess sins. Sins usually have one word names—adultery, stealing, anger, theft, masturbation, pornography, and it doesn’t take long to confess even years worth of sins. “i.e., missed Mass every week for 30 years; fornicated at least twice a week for 20 years.”

Absolution forgives it all. The therapy is in being forgiven, not in the talking.
I’m lucky that I attend a Benedictine abbey; I have a regular confessor and a spiritual director (whom I sometimes use for confession as well). They both know my particulars as it were. I don’t get into lengthy discussions with the confessor for as you say it’s 1/2 before Mass and I don’t want to use up all his time. But it helps that he knows me and my particular areas of concern.
 
The sacrament of confession is primarily for the forgiveness of sins. Spiritual advice and direction is useful but secondary. And therapeutic conversation should be done outside of confession.

If priests had all the time in the world it might be different, but they don’t, and are usually overworked.

I imagine that if every person with even a bit of scrupulosity took all the time they wanted in confession, a great many of the faithful would have no opportunity for confession at all.

In my parish, confessions are heard for 30 minutes before weekday afternoon Mass, plus for an hour on Saturdays. So every day plus Saturday there’s opportunity for confession, and quite often it’s difficult to get all the confessions heard within the allotted time.

I usually go on weekdays. When someone in front of me in line takes an inordinate amount of time in the confessional, people get nervous, because they may be left standing there when the priest has to start Mass.

So, the sacrament is for forgiveness of sins. It doesn’t take long to confess sins. Sins usually have one word names—adultery, stealing, anger, theft, masturbation, pornography, and it doesn’t take long to confess even years worth of sins. “i.e., missed Mass every week for 30 years; fornicated at least twice a week for 20 years.”

Absolution forgives it all. The therapy is in being forgiven, not in the talking.
There is much good in what you say, and Frankly I can see how the common form of confession developed and it certainly stems from what you say about overwork.

Imagine if you will when everybody was Catholic - How many confessions would a give priest be hearing every day/week etc. Seeking deeper discussion and understanding would be most difficult. Using the type and number method was probably seen as a good and efficient way to help as many of the faithful as possible.

Peace
James
 
There is much good in what you say, and Frankly I can see how the common form of confession developed and it certainly stems from what you say about overwork.

Imagine if you will when everybody was Catholic - How many confessions would a give priest be hearing every day/week etc. Seeking deeper discussion and understanding would be most difficult. Using the type and number method was probably seen as a good and efficient way to help as many of the faithful as possible.

Peace
James
I’m not entirely sure of the history of the sacrament, but it seems that in earlier centuries frequent confession was less available to the vast majority of the faithful. In the very earliest years, confession of sins was generally public, for grave matters such as apostasy, and one joined an order of penitents much as one today joins RCIA, with absolution being given at the end of a long process of penitence. It becomes almost axiomatic that if the sacrament is to be routinely available to most people, then it must be limited to its primary purpose of confession and absolution.

During one of my high school religion classes I recall a student asking something like “when the end of the world comes, will all the priests start hearing confessions?”

I don’t recall what the answer was, but I recall thinking that the imminent last judgment might be a little late for a penance service.
 
Yes I’m not real familiar with the development of the sacrament either.

I remember reading in a church history that at one point - late “dark ages” or in the middle ages …🤷…There was action to reform the priesthood because most parish priests had really not had very much training and in essence were not much more knowledgeable than their parishioners.
This would put quite a kink in trying to give good spiritual advice to deeply troubled people struggling with their faith.

Peace
James
 
The sacrament of confession is primarily for the forgiveness of sins. Spiritual advice and direction is useful but secondary. And therapeutic conversation should be done outside of confession.

If priests had all the time in the world it might be different, but they don’t, and are usually overworked.

I imagine that if every person with even a bit of scrupulosity took all the time they wanted in confession, a great many of the faithful would have no opportunity for confession at all.

In my parish, confessions are heard for 30 minutes before weekday afternoon Mass, plus for an hour on Saturdays. So every day plus Saturday there’s opportunity for confession, and quite often it’s difficult to get all the confessions heard within the allotted time.

I usually go on weekdays. When someone in front of me in line takes an inordinate amount of time in the confessional, people get nervous, because they may be left standing there when the priest has to start Mass.

So, the sacrament is for forgiveness of sins. It doesn’t take long to confess sins. Sins usually have one word names—adultery, stealing, anger, theft, masturbation, pornography, and it doesn’t take long to confess even years worth of sins. “i.e., missed Mass every week for 30 years; fornicated at least twice a week for 20 years.”

Absolution forgives it all. The therapy is in being forgiven, not in the talking.
While I’m sympathetic to the practical difficulties, I think this is really not adequate unless people are going to be encouraged to have spiritual directors as well. The fact is that sin is not as obvious as many people think, what is a serious sin is not as obvious as many people think. In this context I often think of The Screwtape Letters, where Screwtape points out to Wormwood how his patient’s mother is being carefully and slowly separated from God through her daintiness with food - a form of gluttony. But one which she is not likely to notice, recognize as a sin, or confess.

Forgiveness of sin is about being healed, and healing requires a correct diagnosis. We cannot turn from our sin if we do not know what it is. Sometimes we can diagnose ourselves, but under normal circumstances it is best to let our doctor do the digging and diagnosing.

The kind of confession you are talking about here is rather like a patient who types his supposed diagnosis into the internet and hopes the cure it recommends will work.
 
While I’m sympathetic to the practical difficulties, I think this is really not adequate unless people are going to be encouraged to have spiritual directors as well. The fact is that sin is not as obvious as many people think, what is a serious sin is not as obvious as many people think. In this context I often think of The Screwtape Letters, where Screwtape points out to Wormwood how his patient’s mother is being carefully and slowly separated from God through her daintiness with food - a form of gluttony. But one which she is not likely to notice, recognize as a sin, or confess.

Forgiveness of sin is about being healed, and healing requires a correct diagnosis. We cannot turn from our sin if we do not know what it is. Sometimes we can diagnose ourselves, but under normal circumstances it is best to let our doctor do the digging and diagnosing.

The kind of confession you are talking about here is rather like a patient who types his supposed diagnosis into the internet and hopes the cure it recommends will work.
What you speak about as diagnosis of sin sounds a lot like spiritual direction to me, which is distinct from the sacrament of reconciliation. In the sacrament, it is the penitent who is his own accuser. True enough, if the penitent does not see sin, he will not confess it. Good homilies ought to be given about such matters. But if every penitent simply dredges up all his worries of things which might be sins, as the scrupulous often do, confessionals must be open 24/7, and priests will get nothing else done.

Things which might be sins, things which are uncertain sins, things which one is unsure of, are not things which must be confessed.
 
What you speak about as diagnosis of sin sounds a lot like spiritual direction to me, which is distinct from the sacrament of reconciliation. In the sacrament, it is the penitent who is his own accuser. True enough, if the penitent does not see sin, he will not confess it. Good homilies ought to be given about such matters. But if every penitent simply dredges up all his worries of things which might be sins, as the scrupulous often do, confessionals must be open 24/7, and priests will get nothing else done.

Things which might be sins, things which are uncertain sins, things which one is unsure of, are not things which must be confessed.
Well said Jim - - -
What this all points to is the need for proper Catechesis of both children and adults.

That said, I do agree with Bluegoat that often times what we are confessing is really symptoms of deeper and possibly more dangerous faults. Things that we might need to address more fully with ourselves, or with a spiritual director or with our confessor (outside of the confessional).
I like to examine myself against the seven deadly sins…

Peace
James
 
And yet other churches who have confession, even required, regular confession, often have it combined with spiritual direction, or people are expected to have spiritual direction elsewhere than with the priest.

To me, you have to have both, and I don’t see that happening much in the Catholic model.
 
I can understand that there are some who wish for more than to confess their sins and receive absolution, along with perhaps a bit of advice.

Yet, confession, contrition, and absolution are the essential elements of the sacrament. Spiritual direction is not.

Let us say that there is a line of 15 people waiting in the confession line. One person is in the confessional, and having confessed his or her sins, now is exploring with the priest the roots of a particular sin, or whether the circumstances surrounding constitute mitigating factors, or what aspects of his or her life need to be worked on.

Now the priest may realize that there is a line of people waiting, so he is a little pressured for time, and somewhat distracted with the conversation and eager to give absolution, but the penitent wants to talk some more. That’s not the best situation for giving spiritual direction.

Back in the line is a person who committed fornication. He or she knows it’s wrong, is sorry, and just wants to be forgiven. At some point he or she may wish to discuss the deeper roots of the problem but right now they just want to get into the confessional, confess the sin, and receive absolution. If the person currently in the confessional spends too much time, that chance may be denied.

One can spend a lifetime in spiritual direction. But one still needs to have one’s sins forgiven.

There are possibly two opposite tendencies at work here. The one tendency may feed the temptation to presumption, (OK, I did this, I’m sorry, now give me absolution). The other tendency may feed the temptation to narcissism. (It’s all about me, so let’s talk about me.)

I think these attitudes toward the sacrament tend to run in cycles.
 
JimG,
I think that what you describe above is a completely accurate description of what the sacrament has evolved into and certainly we should respect that fact.

Yet I think too that it is a valid complaint that too little time is allowed for discussion or advice. Not a full fledged therapy session" but something less than an “assembly line” atmosphere.

Then too we must reckon with the range of priestly skills and personalities, gifts and obligations and demands on their time. Some priests are better able tho handle the peculiar demands of the confessional than others.

In the end, the biggest need is in catechesis. The better educated the laity are, the easier it is on everyone…

Peace
James
 
When I was taking RCIA they encouraged us to seek spiritual guidance within the Sacrament of Confession.

I don’t know what others are taught as they’re brought into the Church but I daresay there are others who are being taught the same thing.
 
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