Does the treasury of merit exist?

[joe370]

Hey Bluegoat, certainly you believe that the CC teaches that Christ, (as no one but God can do) - repaired our relationship to God? I absolutely do!

Just as I mentioned to dzheremi, the bottom line is:

If you are right, or what your church teaches is right, rather, and once a person has received absolution from God via one of God’s ministers/priests, for grave sins committed, and then sadly dies shortly thereafter without committing anymore “intentional sins” - a term used by dzheremi, then they need not fear any kind of possible punishment or purification, prior to their entrance into heaven?

Is that a fair assessment? If so, as I mentioned to dzheremi, I will respect it and leave well enough alone.

Regarding the OP, I think it is safe to say that you agree that the treasury of merits exist (even though you don’t prefer that particular catholic term) - if in fact that “treasury of merits” - consists of the intercessory prayers of the saints in heaven who can strongly assist those of us still sojourning here on earth, minus the CC’s involvement in the process eg indulgences?

 

[dzheremi]

So “meritorious” works are not far off from treasury of “merit”.

google.com/url?q=http://www.gotquestions.org/Coptic-Christianity.html&sa=U&ei=en5qTubSLsjl0QGG98nsBA&ved=0CBsQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNHiFQ0osyBkZtraIUAZWKAAS554KA

Meritorious is from this link.

This is an Envangelical Protestant website seeking to explain the Orthodox faith without really understanding what it is. This is why the vast majority of the description there is historical in nature, rather than theological, featuring only the type of information you could read on Wikipedia or similar. This website claims that “theologically, Coptic Christianity is very similar to Roman Catholicism” and that there are anywhere from 10 to 60 million (!) Copts worldwide.

Also, the native Egyptian Christians are known as “Copts” (singular “Copt”), not “Coptics”. Coptic is a language. While a small detail, this is basic enough to make me wonder whether the people behind the website put any research into it at all.

There are more than enough websites that can educate you on the correct theology of the Copts, as well as their history and social circumstances. I have posted it several times in this thread, but just in case you missed it, here is the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States (where the church I go to is located), overseen by HG Bishop Youssef. It is an excellent resource for your questions.

Other websites that you should use instead of Protestant ones:

Coptic Web: All things Coptic, great and small.

agpeya.org/: The Coptic book of the hours, since I’ve referenced it several times here, and because there really isn’t a better way to learn.

orthodoxsermons.org./: Collections of sermons in video and audio by HH Pope Shenouda III, the other bishops, many priests, and the occasional metropolitan, deacon, priest’s wife, layperson, etc.

The Coptic Synaxarium via St. Takla Haymanout church in Alexandria. Though much of the website is in Arabic, there are English versions of a lot of things, and many, many useful links on this website.

orthodoxebooks.org/: A collection of mostly Coptic Orthodox books, in pdf format. Generally good stuff here, though the translations can vary from a bit clunky to practically criminally negligent (you’d think they’d at least get a native English speaker to look over the translations of HH’s books, but sadly that doesn’t appear to be the case).

Many of the bishops have their own websites, too:

HH Pope Shenouda III: copticpope.org/

HG Bishop Suriel (Melbourne, Australia): bishopsuriel.org

HG Bishop Moussa (Head of the Youth Bishopric): www.youthbishopric.com

HG Bishop Angaelos (UK): Bishop Angaelos

etc. etc.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I know, I shall read them. Check this one out and let me know your thoughts.

google.com/url?q=http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/patrology/schoolofalex2/&sa=U&ei=RI5qTp7JCeW90AHLhsXlBA&ved=0CDEQFjAI&usg=AFQjCNH5yUYJa9IdW8puvn_xpE6TyISIXQ

Peace

 

[Bluegoat]

Hey Bluegoat…

I believe the paradigm for temporal punishment of a forgiven sin, is spelled out in the early councils, embraced even by most protestants. For example, temporal penance, aka punishment of the penitent, has always been a discipline imposed by the catholic church, as demonstrated in the following canon from the first ecumenical council of Nicea. It states that those who had lapsed from the faith without persecution were to spend twelve years as public penitents before they might be readmitted to the sacraments – and then of course only if a sincere conversion be evidenced by perseverance in a new life.

“Concerning those who have fallen without compulsion, without the spoiling of their property, without danger or the like, as happened during the tyranny of Licinius, the Synod declares that, though they have deserved no clemency, they shall be dealt with mercifully. As many as were communicants, if they heartily repent, shall pass three years among the hearers; for seven years they shall be prostrators; and for two years they shall communicate with the people in prayers, but without oblation.”

Here we see a temporal punishment was imposed by Jesus’ church for the penitent, and this was quite normal for grave sins. It was understood that, given the weakness of fallen humanity, stern discipline/punishment was required to guide the penitent… Why? Why wasn’t the sacrament of confession enough?

I am not attempting to make the case for purgatory per se, where temporal punishment is thought to take place, (believed by the CC) - but rather the case for temporal punishment of the penitent, by the church.

There is no doubt that penances were given to people, and rather harsh ones at that. The real question though is, what were these penances meant to do? What did they represent, and what was their purpose?

Did the Early Church believe that without them, people would go to purgatory, or owe a debt to God? Or were they to help make the seriousness of the sin clear to people? Or to help the person become more disciplined?

I agree with that comment but I don’t recall saying it to you. Saints in heaven work within the confines of God’s Will - period.

I said that in Catholic belief to do more than God requires, and you said Catholics do not believe that. I pointed out that the Treasury of Merit is supposedly filled by the extra works of the saints.

I don’t see how believing that it is not possible to do more than is required is compatible with the Treasury of Merits.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Blue check out the link I posted. On the left of the link is the Theology of the Coptic Chruch. Tell me what you think about it. I’d like to hear your (name removed by moderator)ut. Joe did you read it?

Sorry about the miserable discouse of inadequate words which in truth define Intercession and attempt to show the mystical side.

I do not know what they know in Rome. I listen with an open mind. I am laity. Not my job to define doctrine.

Peace

 

[Bluegoat]

Blue check out the link I posted. On the left of the link is the Theology of the Coptic Chruch. Tell me what you think about it. I’d like to hear your (name removed by moderator)ut. Joe did you read it?

Sorry about the miserable discouse of inadequate words which in truth define Intercession and attempt to show the mystical side.

I do not know what they know in Rome. I listen with an open mind. I am laity. Not my job to define doctrine.

Peace

Hmm, I’ve had a quick look. It isn’t a point by point site for sure, they have a text by St Athanasius in the information section!

I looked quickly at the book by Pope Shenouda (a friend of mine met him one time when he visited my friend’s seminary) on Comparative Theology. I guess it was meant to help Copts understand Protestantism? But it doesn’t seem very effective for that purpose as far as I can see. It says that Protestants don’t believe in baptizing infants, which is of course a generalization to the point that it is simply untrue.

I’ll have a bit more of a look around though.

 

[Bluegoat]

Hey Bluegoat, certainly you believe that the CC teaches that Christ, (as no one but God can do) - repaired our relationship to God? I absolutely do!

Just as I mentioned to dzheremi, the bottom line is:

If you are right, or what your church teaches is right, rather, and once a person has received absolution from God via one of God’s ministers/priests, for grave sins committed, and then sadly dies shortly thereafter without committing anymore “intentional sins” - a term used by dzheremi, then they need not fear any kind of possible punishment or purification, prior to their entrance into heaven?

Is that a fair assessment? If so, as I mentioned to dzheremi, I will respect it and leave well enough alone.

Actually, I’m not sure if I would say that is the case. Because it seems to me like you want to imagine that we are either in a state of Grace, or we are out - black or white. Whereas I would say that very often we may still be clinging to things that will require a certain kind of purification, that we will have to leave behind.

So I would say that most of us, upon death will find ourselves in God’s presence. If we still cling to our bad habits and desires and ideas, God’s presence will be terrible. If we let God’s love burn these things away - and probably all of us will have to do that because we all cling to such things even if we have just confessed, we will experience that purification and then experience God’s love as wonderful.

Regarding the OP, I think it is safe to say that you agree that the treasury of merits exist (even though you don’t prefer that particular catholic term) - if in fact that “treasury of merits” - consists of the intercessory prayers of the saints in heaven who can strongly assist those of us still sojourning here on earth, minus the CC’s involvement in the process eg indulgences?

I would say that the actions, including prayer, of all of those in the Church can affect all the rest of us in the Church. But I don’t think I could use the language of merits, and I don’t think they are somehow pooled together, and I don’t think that it is a matter of people doing more than God requires so the extra can be given to others (what Anglicans call "works of supererrogation).

 

[GaryTaylor]

Hmm, I’ve had a quick look. It isn’t a point by point site for sure, they have a text by St Athanasius in the information section!

I looked quickly at the book by Pope Shenouda (a friend of mine met him one time when he visited my friend’s seminary) on Comparative Theology. I guess it was meant to help Copts understand Protestantism? But it doesn’t seem very effective for that purpose as far as I can see. It says that Protestants don’t believe in baptizing infants, which is of course a generalization to the point that it is simply untrue.

I’ll have a bit more of a look around though.

Right, I shot down to the mystical aspect it is in line with CC, of course from what I read… Mary, Gate of Heaven. Saints intercession, prayer intercession etc. Its all there and correct. I’m impressed. I’ll have to read deeper.

 

[joe370]

Hey Bluegoat, you said:

Actually, I’m not sure if I would say that is the case. Because it seems to me like you want to imagine that we are either in a state of Grace, or we are out - black or white.

I was asking if that is what you believe, but based on the fact that you said the following, I now understand that you don’t:

If we let God’s love burn these things away - and probably all of us will have to do that because we all cling to such things even if we have just confessed, we will experience that purification and then experience God’s love as wonderful.

Thanks for the feedback…

 

[GaryTaylor]

Not sure if everyone has access to the same links.

google.com/url?q=http://www.catholictreasury.info/books/everlasting_life/ev11.php&sa=U&ei=nrNrTtzkK47egQf96ozdBQ&ved=0CBgQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNEqZgzEjj08uBFLX_Ytv7bsfMqIgA

 

[joe370]

Hey Bluegoat…

I would say that the actions, including prayer, of all of those in the Church can affect all the rest of us in the Church.

OK…

But I don’t think I could use the language of merits

By meriting (for example grace via prayer to our savior) - something for someone else I am merely talking about providing something beneficial for someone else. You provided a good example of meriting:

Actions, including prayer, of all of those in the Church affecting all the rest of us in the Church.

But if you want to steer away from the catholic term “merit” I totally understand why…

…and I don’t think they are somehow pooled together

Well, I wouldn’t suggest that they were pooled together per se; just that God could certainly see the prayers of the saints in heaven, as a whole. I would imagine that the communion of saints (church triumphant, for lack of a better word) - in heaven are a tad more united than is the case here on earth…

and I don’t think that it is a matter of people doing more than God requires so the extra can be given to others (what Anglicans call "works of supererrogation).

I agree; I too don’t think that it is a matter of people doing more than God. If I said that (don’t remember) - I was terribly wrong and I retract that statement…

 

[joe370]

Bluegoat

There is no doubt that penances were given to people, and rather harsh ones at that. The real question though is, what were these penances meant to do? What did they represent, and what was their purpose?

Did the Early Church believe that without them, people would go to purgatory, or owe a debt to God? Or were they to help make the seriousness of the sin clear to people? Or to help the person become more disciplined?

I think you are right in that the punishment/penance by the church, was imposed to help make the seriousness of the sin crystal clear to the penitent, and to burn away what remains clinging to the penitent after the sins were confessed; our penance is sort of a cleansing, like you mentioned:

If we still cling to our bad habits and desires and ideas, God’s presence will be terrible. If we let God’s love burn these things away - and probably all of us will have to do that because we all cling to such things even if we have just confessed, we will experience that purification and then experience God’s love as wonderful.

To me, it seems that the early church believed penance to be a stern discipline/punishment for the penitent, which was required for the penitent in extreme cases of sin, to guide the penitent back into the community.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Life and Death teaching on Judgement by Rome is pretty intense hey?

 

[De_Maria]

This is an interesting comment. It seems that you think that some positions are inherently “Protestant” or “Catholic” or what have you, such that if any other Christian body seems to agree with them (or your interpretation of what they mean), then that group is embracing a “Protestant” (or ____) view.

Yes. That is true. You can tell a Catholic from a Protestant by what he believes. Certainly, if a person says that he doesn’t submit to the Pope, you won’t expect him to be a Catholic.

And if a person submits to the Pope, you expect him to be Catholic.

Therefore, yes, certain positions are inherently Protestant or Catholic.

I explained why your position is illogical for a person who believes in prayer for and to the dead in Christ.

If that is the case, then I can only point out to you how much of Roman Catholic theology is at the base of Protestant theology. Protestants by and large embrace the debt/atonement view of salvation as inherited from the RC, for instance. Ditto the filioque in the Protestant churches that use it. So are these therefore “Protestant” stances?

You’re changing the subject. I merely mentioned my surprise at the objection you raised to Purgatory and prayer for the dead, considering that your professed faith holds a very similar doctrine.

Stick to the subject, please.

The Orthodox Church does object to Purgatory for the reason stated by Bishop Moussa (a Coptic Orthodox bishop, not Protestant).

I find that strange for the reasons I stated.

In addition, Fr. Andrew S. Damick makes a similar point in his “Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy” podcast that deals with EO/RC differences. I know I have linked this before…

Sorry, I don’t have time to read every website that is offered. If you can articulate your point, present it. If you can’t, …

See above. This is a red herring. The Orthodox have always prayed for the dead, so whatever Protestant objections may be can’t have anything to do with the Orthodox, as the underlying rationale is so different.

Yours is the red herring.

1. If the Orthodox claim that Catholic prayer for the dead nullifies Christ’s death on the Cross, then their practice of prayer for the dead, does the same.
2. If the Orthodox claim that the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory nullifies Christ’s death on the Cross, they need to explain why and how. Because it is Catholic doctrine that Purgatory exists because of the grace released by Christ’s death on the Cross.

I know declarative statements are fun and all, but they’re not terribly convincing.
You are referring here to the quotes from Bishop Moussa, et al.? (Sorry, I’m having trouble tracking what you’re replying to, several pages/replies back.) These may not be your arguments, but these are Orthodox arguments. They do not rely on Latin Catholic logical paradigms any more than RC ideas rely on Eastern apophatic theology. Apples and oranges, my friend.

Another red herring. It doesn’t require any Latin Catholic logical paradigms nor any apophatic theology to see that the objection you raised is illogical considering your professed belief system. I quote:

"…] we definitely reject this belief because if the purifying fire will cleanse us from sin, then Christ’s death was in vain.

Now, if your prayers will release the dead from sin. Then Christ’s death was in vain.

Simple as that.

As for the Catholic doctrine, have you not read in Scripture:
Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

It is God who purifies the soul in Purgatory.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

An interesting choice of infinitive verb, but okay…glad to help.

Good point. I forgot about how we are having this discussion right now face to face, in the same room.

What’s your point?..

Keyboard to keyboard, if you prefer. But I don’t send you or anyone to read entire websites. I copy and paste the relevant text and reference the website for you to read if you decide you’re interested.

You asked for backing for my views, so I linked to various Orthodox websites that give that backing, mostly repositories of printed material that I do not actually own, like orthodoxebooks.org which collects mostly Coptic Orthodox writings from HH Pope Shenouda III, the other bishops, Fr. Tadrous Yacoub Malaty, and other well-respected illuminators of the Coptic Orthodox faith. This is not “debate by website” any more than literally every single instance of quoting an outside source that you have also done. Please notice how restrictive this complaining and trying to control the discussion is: If you cannot stand to have me argue from my own opinion (as you have made clear by pointing out over and over how I am “only arguing (my) opinion”), and cannot stand any links to the outside sources that have informed this opinion, then effectively you cannot stand to actually discuss these issues.

Are you serious? Do you really expect me to go to those links, read them, decide what point you are making and then come back to this website, articulate your argument for you and then respond to it?

We (both) have sources, and opinions following from interpretations of those sources.

And if we’re debating, we both ought to be able to articulate our arguments.

Without these, there’s really nothing to talk about.

Ok. Bye.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[dzheremi]

Therefore, yes, certain positions are inherently Protestant or Catholic.

See, this is the point I was getting at: The position of the Orthodox church is not a Protestant position, as it is what they have ALWAYS taught, without relation to any events or schools of thought that arose entirely in the West (the Orthodox churches never had a comparable event in their history as the “Protestant Reformation”). To make everything that is not compatible with Roman Catholicism a matter of “Protestantism vs. Catholicism” does a great deal of violence to reality and church history. Orthodox bishops denying unorthodox ideas that existed before Protestants even existed is not Protestantism or an endorsement of Protestantism in any way.

Sorry, I don’t have time to read every website that is offered. If you can articulate your point, present it.

I have not only provided links to sites for those who want them to get more information on Orthodox stances, but I have also quoted the relevant portions from them in my posts. Since you have apparently missed this, here is HG Bishop Youssef’s explanation of why
the Orthodox do not believe in purgatory, and why they pray for the dead.

The Coptic Orthodox View on the Purgatory

1. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption

Roman Catholics believe that purgatory is a place where “we atone for our sins” while atonement is the work of our Lord Jesus Christ alone. The Basis of the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption is that man is incapable of paying for the Divine Justice no matter how much he does, he suffers, or is punished.

The Holy Bible says,

* "Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed" (Rom 3:24-25).

* "If anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world" (1 Jn 2:1-2).

* "In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (1 Jn 4:10).

1. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Salvation

Salvation is only by blood and only the blood of Christ. The blood of Christ is the only purge. “The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin” (1 Jn 1:7). ‘All sin’ refers to every kind of sin mentioned by the Catholics the mortal, the venial or any other. The only condition is repentance “confess our sins” “walk in the light” (1 Jn 1:7,9). St Paul says, “But with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption” (Heb 9:12). Purgatory is an insult to the work of the Cross for we say that on the Cross appeared the Divine Love “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son” (Jn 3:16) How would that love agree with the pain of purgatory for forgiven sins and unintentional sins?

To believe in the purgatory is to believe of a partial salvation as if Christ came to save us from the shame of sin not from its penalty.

1. Purgatory is against the sacrament of repentance

Repentance blots sin, God forgives it and does not remember it.

1. “Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out” (Acts 3:19).

1. “I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, and like a cloud, your sins” (Isa 44:22).

1. “And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, nailed to the cross” (Col 2:13,14).

1. “I, even I, am He Who blots out transgressions for My own sake and I will not remember your sins” (Isa 43:25).

The Coptic Orthodox view on the Prayer for the Departed

We pray for those who departed from this world not because we believe in the purgatory but following St. Paul who prayed for Onesiphorus saying, “The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day” (2 Tim 1:18). In that Day meant in the Day of Judgment, as he said “Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing” (2 Tim 4:8). St. Paul was not asking for mercy in the purgatory but on the Day of Judgment when he stands before the Just Judge. We pray for the departure that God may grant them rest in the place of waiting for the Day of Judgment has not come yet. Those departed are awaiting without worry or unrest. The litany for the departed does not mention the purgatory at all. We pray saying, “Sustain them in a green pasture, by the water of rest in the paradise of joy, the place out of which grief, sorrow and groaning have fled away” This is definitely not the description of the purgatory for the purgatory contrarily is a place of grief, sorrow and groaning.

Our Church absolves the soul of the departed during the prayer. She absolves her from all the sins she committed while in the flesh. We say to God, 'this soul has departed from us absolved by the church. We do not retain any sin for her…we intercede for her for You O Lord know the weakness of man.

 

[dzheremi]

And if we’re debating, we both ought to be able to articulate our arguments.

I agree. Any time you have an actual argument to make rather than “The Church of Rome is always right” and “That’s Protestant”, I’d be more than willing to consider it.

 

[Bluegoat]

See, this is the point I was getting at: The position of the Orthodox church is not a Protestant position, as it is what they have ALWAYS taught, without relation to any events or schools of thought that arose entirely in the West (the Orthodox churches never had a comparable event in their history as the “Protestant Reformation”). To make everything that is not compatible with Roman Catholicism a matter of “Protestantism vs. Catholicism” does a great deal of violence to reality and church history. Orthodox bishops denying unorthodox ideas that existed before Protestants even existed is not Protestantism or an endorsement of Protestantism in any way.

This made me laugh, because it rather reminds me of the army. In the old days in the Canadian army, there were only two types of padres and religious designations: Catholic and Protestant. The Catholic designation of course included Catholics; every one else from a Baptist to a Satanist to a Hindu to an atheist was a Protestant, and fell under the care of the Protestant padres.

 

[De_Maria]

See, this is the point I was getting at: The position of the Orthodox church is not a Protestant position, as it is what they have ALWAYS taught, without relation to any events or schools of thought that arose entirely in the West (the Orthodox churches never had a comparable event in their history as the “Protestant Reformation”). To make everything that is not compatible with Roman Catholicism a matter of “Protestantism vs. Catholicism” does a great deal of violence to reality and church history. Orthodox bishops denying unorthodox ideas that existed before Protestants even existed is not Protestantism or an endorsement of Protestantism in any way.

This is a straw man.

1. I did not say that you hold a Protestant doctrine in common.
2. I said that you hold an objection in common with the Protestants.

Those two statements are not the same thing.

Not only that, but I am astonished that you hold this objection. As this objection demolishes your doctrine. Let me illustrate:

You say:

Our Church absolves the soul of the departed during the prayer.

If that is true, then of what value is Christ’s sacrifice? All you need do is have your Church absolve your sin.

Your objection to Purgatory, demolishes your own doctrine.

I have not only provided links to sites for those who want them to get more information on Orthodox stances, but I have also quoted the relevant portions from them in my posts. Since you have apparently missed this, here is HG Bishop Youssef’s explanation of why
the Orthodox do not believe in purgatory, and why they pray for the dead.

The Coptic Orthodox View on the Purgatory

1. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption

Roman Catholics believe that purgatory is a place where “we atone for our sins” while atonement is the work of our Lord Jesus Christ alone. The Basis of the doctrine of Atonement and Redemption is that man is incapable of paying for the Divine Justice no matter how much he does, he suffers, or is punished.

The doctrine of Purgatory is perfectly in line with Scripture on the matter of atonement and redemption:
1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

The Holy Bible says,

• “Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed” (Rom 3:24-25).

• “If anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world” (1 Jn 2:1-2).

• “In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 Jn 4:10).

The Catholic Church believes all those verses. But none of them contradict the doctrine of Purgatory:
1 Corinthians 3:15
King James Version (KJV)
15If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1. Purgatory is against the doctrine of Salvation

Salvation is only by blood and only the blood of Christ. The blood of Christ is the only purge. “The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin” (1 Jn 1:7). ‘All sin’ refers to every kind of sin mentioned by the Catholics the mortal, the venial or any other. The only condition is repentance “confess our sins” “walk in the light” (1 Jn 1:7,9). St Paul says, “But with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption” (Heb 9:12). Purgatory is an insult to the work of the Cross for we say that on the Cross appeared the Divine Love “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son” (Jn 3:16) How would that love agree with the pain of purgatory for forgiven sins and unintentional sins?

To believe in the purgatory is to believe of a partial salvation as if Christ came to save us from the shame of sin not from its penalty.

On the contrary, it is those who deny Purgatory who believe in the partial salvation of men. It is in Purgatory that the blood of Christ is applied to the sinner and which like fire, purges them of sins:
Isaiah 6:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

1. Purgatory is against the sacrament of repentance

Repentance blots sin, God forgives it and does not remember it.

Only after He exacts payment:
2 Samuel 12:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

14Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

15And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah’s wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

1. “Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out” (Acts 3:19).

This is a reference to Baptism. Check one chapter before, where the language is almost exactly the same:
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1. “I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, and like a cloud, your sins” (Isa 44:22).

Again, God does forgive, but he exacts payment. As was seen above, where Isaiah’s lips were burned in order to be purified of sin and where David paid for his sin with Bathsheba, though he was forgiven.

In Isaiah 44, God is speaking to the remnant which has been scattered to Assyria, to pay for their sins of idolatry.

1. “And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, nailed to the cross” (Col 2:13,14).

This is the same Apostle which teaches the necessity of suffering:
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

1. “I, even I, am He Who blots out transgressions for My own sake and I will not remember your sins” (Isa 43:25).

This is still the same episode as mentioned in Isaiah 44. These Israelites have expiated their sin in exile. Now God will forget their sins. They have paid for them.
Zechariah 13:9
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

The Coptic Orthodox view on the Prayer for the Departed

We pray for those who departed from this world not because we believe in the purgatory but following St. Paul who prayed for Onesiphorus saying, “The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day” (2 Tim 1:18). In that Day meant in the Day of Judgment, as he said “Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing” (2 Tim 4:8). St. Paul was not asking for mercy in the purgatory but on the Day of Judgment when he stands before the Just Judge. We pray for the departure that God may grant them rest in the place of waiting for the Day of Judgment has not come yet. Those departed are awaiting without worry or unrest. The litany for the departed does not mention the purgatory at all. We pray saying, “Sustain them in a green pasture, by the water of rest in the paradise of joy, the place out of which grief, sorrow and groaning have fled away” This is definitely not the description of the purgatory for the purgatory contrarily is a place of grief, sorrow and groaning.

Our Church absolves the soul of the departed during the prayer. She absolves her from all the sins she committed while in the flesh. We say to God, 'this soul has departed from us absolved by the church. We do not retain any sin for her…we intercede for her for You O Lord know the weakness of man.

And so, the question remains, if your Church can simply pray for the absolution of sins, why did Jesus die on the Cross?

Sincerely,

De Maria