Does the treasury of merit exist?

[dzheremi]

Christians belonging to the CC, as you know, also pray that through the prayers of God’s holy saints God may forgive our sins as well as imparting grace in our lives. We all need as much grace as possible.

Oh, I know that. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I was just trying to explain why our understanding of that does not also carry an understanding of merits, treasury, etc. as the RC does.

 

[joe370]

The fire tests the quality of the work, right? Referring back to the earlier verses, nothing can be built but on the foundation that has already been laid, that is Jesus Christ. So those who build will have the quality of their work tested in the fire, and if it is burnt down/lost (say, if they attempt to build it on a worldly foundation), then what they have built is lost, yet they themselves survive. We might compare it to the warning against building one’s house on sand in Matthew. The house that is built on sand is destroyed by the rain and wind, but the foolish builder himself is not said to have to been somehow destroyed as a result. He’s just without a house, because he did not build it on the proper foundation.

The moral of the story in both cases could be told as: Build on Christ ONLY, or you will be left with nothing.

Again, I am not seeing purgatory here.

Is the following correct?

Scenario 1) If what has been built (gold) - survives that “day” then the builder will receive his reward without suffering loss or experiencing the flames, a metaphor for God’s judgment?

Scenario 2) If what has been built (straw) - does not survive, but rather burns up, the builder will first suffer loss through the flames (a metaphor for God’s judgment) - and then receive his reward?

 

[Bluegoat]

Just thinking out loud, but I think part of what may be an issue with the ToM is the idea that the “merits” are things in themselves, which can be taken from one person and used elsewhere.

If you think bout the Eastern model it can’t really be understood that way. In theosis, those who have lives a “good” life of faith have become divinized, and allowed God to live in them more and more completely. It is what they ARE, an instantiation of God’s love and God’s will. Their prayers, because of that, can be in one sense very effectual, but it is just nonsense to talk about pooling them or using them for others in any way.

 

[dzheremi]

Joe:

Do you mean which understanding follows what I wrote? Either may, I suppose, but I wouldn’t speculate beyond what I’ve already written. Again, I believe that the point is that we are to build on the foundation that is Christ.

Blue:

Yeah, that’s a big part of the issue, I think, going back in this thread to Swiss Guy’s original post…

 

[joe370]

Dzheremi, can you confirm the following? I don’t like to present a quote as fact unless I can confirm it as fact:

I discovered on line, that St. Clement of Alexandria, (200AD) - a man honored in both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, said, that it is by punishment after death that men must expiate the least sin before they can enter heaven?

 

[joe370]

Hey Dzheremi…

The fire tests the quality of the work, right?

Referring back to the earlier verses, nothing can be built but on the foundation that has already been laid, that is Jesus Christ.

So those who build will have the quality of their work tested in the fire, and if it is burnt down/lost then what they have built is lost, yet they themselves survive.

So, it’s not the builder that suffers via the flames, on that day, but rather his/her works being burned up by the fire, that suffers loss, since it is the quality of his/her works that are being tested by the fire?

Or, is the builder suffering via the flames, on that day, because his/her works are being burned up by the fire, since it is the quality of his/her works that are being tested by the fire?

 

[dzheremi]

Dzheremi, can you confirm the following? I don’t like to present a quote as fact unless I can confirm it as fact:

I discovered on line, that St. Clement of Alexandria, (200AD) - a man honored in both the Coptic Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, said, that it is by punishment after death that men must expiate the least sin before they can enter heaven?

No, but you can. Where is this recorded?

So, it’s not the builder that suffers via the flames, on that day, but rather his/her works being burned up by the fire, that suffers loss, since it is the quality of his/her works that are being tested by the fire?

Or, is the builder suffering via the flames, on that day, because his/her works are being burned up by the fire, since it is the quality of his/her works that are being tested by the fire?

I don’t know. Does this have to be an either/or thing? Like I wrote, I wouldn’t speculate beyond what I’ve already written, so I don’t think about this stuff.

 

[joe370]

I don’t know. Does this have to be an either/or thing? Like I wrote, I wouldn’t speculate beyond what I’ve already written, so I don’t think about this stuff.

I understand that you are not speculating beyond what you have already written and I really did attempt to think outside my catholic box and grasp your take on it, but the following scenario is the only thing that makes sense to me. That was how I understood it as a former protestant as well. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this one as well:

Our works, (gold or straw) - will, on that day, be revealed with fire, and this fire will test the quality of our works.

Clearly this is something that happens to us in the next life.

If the person’s work is made up of gold (figuratively speaking) - then their work will survive the fire that is there to test quality of a person’s work and the builder will receive a reward without suffering loss via the fire that tested the quality of the person’s work.

If the person’s work is made of straw (figuratively speaking) - and therefore is burned up by the fire that is there to test the quality of a person’s work (in this case, the straw) - then the builder will sadly suffer loss because of it, yet will be saved.

 

[dzheremi]

That’s fine, Joe. I’m not here to pick on you for anything. Some things, though, are just not terribly important to the practice of Christianity, at least not to me. I don’t know why it is important to know things that will happen at the day of judgment, beyond what our Lord has already told us so that we know how to endure to the end. I mean…what is the advantage of having a particular interpretation proven, in this case? So that you can act surprised on that day? I’m being silly, but now I mean this seriously: We will all be surprised on that day…it’s just a matter of what kind of surprise we will be getting.

I once had a video in my signature from one of the funerals of the martyrs of the new years’ church bombing at Alexandria, with the good words of HG Bishop Moussa and Fr. Tadrous (two men whose writings I have referenced many times in this thread, incidentally). Here it is, if you are interested. I was surprised when I first watched it to hear HG Bishop Moussa’s beautiful description of heaven as a place where we might ask questions of the saints and of God. And the answers are astounding, of course. But if I knew these things beforehand, they would not be any less breathtaking. Again, the experience is entirely different than the speculation, no matter who is doing it or for what reason.

So I don’t pry too much into things. If such questions help you, then by all means ask and answer however many you like. But my faith is not nurtured by that, nor in that.

 

[joe370]

Dzheremi…

That’s fine, Joe. I’m not here to pick on you for anything. Some things, though, are just not terribly important to the practice of Christianity, at least not to me. I don’t know why it is important to know things that will happen at the day of judgment, beyond what our Lord has already told us so that we know how to endure to the end.

You know, I suppose its really not that important to know the things that will happen at the day of judgment, beyond what our Lord has already told us. However, if purgatory is a real state of purification, and certain folks of the eastern ilk do not believe it, they still pray for those who have passed on, unlike most protestants, and and no doubt those souls experiencing purgatory (again, only if it really exists) - will benefit from those loving prayers.

I mean…what is the advantage of having a particular interpretation proven, in this case?

Actually I do see one advantage to knowing whether or not purgatory exists: knowing, or should I say having faith that purgatory exists, compels one to pray specifically for souls in purgatory, and according to catholic theology, our prayers really do assist those souls. For example a person can requests a memorial Mass to be said for the benefit of someone possibly in purgatory. Of course there is no way to know who is or isn’t experiencing purgatory so it’s sort of, just in case…

So that you can act surprised on that day? I’m being silly

LOL…

…but now I mean this seriously: We will all be surprised on that day…it’s just a matter of what kind of surprise we will be getting.

Let’s hope it’s a good surprise for all, non-Christians included. I know I am not suppose to believe this, but it is my hope that everyone in hell will be released from hell…Hell was a concept that really messed with my head and kept me away from Christianity for so long. The idea of souls, and eventually souls reunited to their bodies,
burning for all eternity makes me sick to my stomach.

I once had a video in my signature from one of the funerals of the martyrs of the new years’ church bombing at Alexandria, with the good words of HG Bishop Moussa and Fr. Tadrous (two men whose writings I have referenced many times in this thread, incidentally). Here it is, if you are interested. I was surprised when I first watched it to hear HG Bishop Moussa’s beautiful description of heaven as a place where we might ask questions of the saints and of God. And the answers are astounding, of course. But if I knew these things beforehand, they would not be any less breathtaking. Again, the experience is entirely different than the speculation, no matter who is doing it or for what reason.

I will DEFINITELY check that out…

So I don’t pry too much into things. If such questions help you, then by all means ask and answer however many you like. But my faith is not nurtured by that, nor in that.

I understand…

 

[joe370]

By the way Dzheremi, I did find that quote from Clement of Alexandria; of course he never employs the word purgatory:

“Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more – not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness.” Stromata 6:14

 

[GaryTaylor]

dzheremi

Its not important for us understand “exactly” what will transpire in heaven or at judgement. However those following blindly need a structured outline of what they are following even if its in theory, so when the attacks come from outside, which in fact attacks the head and scatters the sheep. Then the correct context can be placed under scrutiny for exam. In fact its how evil has always worked.

The mystical aspect in defination by Rome has far exceeded anything world-wide to date in History. No-one contests this for they are reduced to “ancient” thinking. There is “nothing” for the other churchs in Christianity to stand on which compares to St Ignatius of Loyola, St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross. They are the instruction manual for not only Christians by any mystic worldwide. You will not find a book written today on the topic where the basis of is theology isn’t rooted on one of the three.

Rome has so exceeded mankind in this area its a foregone conclusion we need to at least keep and open mind in this area of study.

Purgatory is an unknown, yet all we see today confirms, not only from the mystics, but in the paranoral realm today. Its not by chance souls are electronically tracked through EMF meters, then communicated with through other electronic means. Personally I am more interesed in the electrical/mathmatical/physics of this phenom. But one cannot help but wonder “how” this plays into Gods Kingdoms. I think we can exclude the theory they are Trapped, or forgfotten is incorrect. Gods does not make mistakes. That may well be Purgatory. Which also doesn’t mean this phneom is not exploited for personal gain.

If we think Saints and Sinners. Its pretty easy to conclude not only Black and White exist. There “is” the Grey area. We can’t prove it mathmatically because we cannot connect the magnetic and electromagnetic fields which are a known and understood, to the energy which taps into these fields, which is a thinking, moving. projection of conscious energy. Its a known like gravity and still a mystery like gravity but only to a more extreme sense in lack of understanding.

However, there is a point with leaving a paper trail. Its a way of understanding for those coming a thousand years from now. They did the best they could with what they had in the past. We must do the same for the future. All indications confirm purgatory. The past is lacking, we have advanced, we have come to understand other truths in the above fields which relate to Christainity. We cannot stick to merely the Theology of Christianity in this area to completely understand it.

Listen, if Rome wasn’t doing what it is today, we would be behind in many fields which we cannot afford to do in this age. They will be cloning man and we won’t understand the Bio-Chemistry behind it. It a foregone conclusion we need to not only keep up, but excel in all these areas. Look at the battle in the USA which Obama re-opened by overturning the Bush established laws on the Conscious [8 total]. If we were limited to 2-3-4th century knowledge we would constantly be behind the 8-ball. We are only bound by what we do not know when we chose to be. Are we bound by the unclear knowledge in those early centurys? Should we eliminate all Einsteins theory because ECFs couldn’t comprehend it? I think not. As we see with the Saints I mentioned above, knowledge is continuing to be defined. If it is consistant with Scripture we are going to reasearch it, and confirm it when need be.

Ghosts/Demons are mentioned in Scripture, what they did not understand yesterday has “ZIP” to do with what we do know today.

St Mary is another example which is a truth we don’t have fully defined as of yet. However its coming and there’s a constant confirmation of what we already know. Look at the Coptic Church in Zeituon. Thats a truth, a fact, and a “sign” a Blessing and an acknowledgement. Just as Fatima was a “warning”. And you can best believe it confirms their mysical understanding of St Mary as the Gate.

What “we” do not know we cannot dismiss through some other churchs “lack” of knowledge in these area/fields. They are behind and need to get up to speed. Where in school did you ever learn this concept? We need to keep an open mind until we can conclude fact/truth/knowledge. We don’t dismiss any theory until we can prove it incorrect. What world did this happen in?

Theories/Speculation
Believers in ghosts tend to think that spirits remain on earth after death to complete some unfulfilled purpose. The Catholic church instead believes in the doctrine of purgatory. According to the church, purgatory is the place between heaven and hell where sins and unsettled issues are removed from the soul in preparation for the soul’s entrance into heaven. However, the church does not rule out the possibility that God may allow souls in purgatory to reach out to the living in the form of a ghost to resolve unsettled issues.

Considerations
Although the Catholic church does not believe in ghosts, they do believe in Satan. Satan is defined as a fallen angel consumed with evil. Satan acts to tempt the living and has the power to take over their bodies. In fact, the church has exorcism rites to free someone from Satan. Exorcisms can only be performed by a priest after obtaining permission from the bishop.

Expert Insight
According to the Bible, the dead can appear to the living, as Moses appeared to Jesus and several apostles years after his death. Also, as noted in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, a ghost-like image of Samuel speaks to Saul. So, in some way, the dead can make their presence known to others on earth and communicate messages. However, it is strictly against the teachings of the church for the living to reach out to the dead but through prayer intercession. “eHow.com”

Jesus Christ does not rebuke the apostles for mentioning “Ghost”.

 

[De_Maria]

No, post 224, where I mention how some of the people I talked to said that it seems that HG Bishop Youssef is not describing precisely what is said in the liturgy (which I did describe by quoting the hymn “Ni Men Epchois”, which is said as a sort of general prayer for absolution after some of the more specific prayers for priests, deacons, etc.). However, subsequent to that post, last night another Coptic friend pointed out that there IS some kind of absolution for the dead (though he hasn’t shown me where it is, and I didn’t find it in my reading over the liturgy of St. Basil the other day), so I guess the jury is out on this until he gets back to me. He did point out, however, and this is what I was going to say before others suggested that there might be other explanations, that just as the RCs believe about their own sacraments, the Coptic Orthodox see everything in terms of CHRIST performing the sacrament: In other words, just as RC reconciliation, any absolution that is given (no matter what context) is given BY Christ, through the priests who are the servants of the sacraments. In that sense (which I 100% agree with, as I did when I was Catholic), there is no such conflict between saying that the Church absolves and that Christ absolves, because the church does not absolve by some sort of power inherent to it, over and against or separate the power of Christ present in it. But this is getting off topic…

I’ve already addressed this twice now. I am done with it, barring some explanation from my friend about the absolution that he maintains is in some form of the liturgy (I’m assuming one of the funerary liturgies, since I couldn’t find it in my copy of St. Basil’s).

And three times now, I’ve repeated, your explanations conflict with your objection. Because the Catholic Church teaches it is BECAUSE of Christ’s sacrifice that men may be purified in Purgatory. Therefore, you annul the basis for your own doctrine, when you claim that it can’t be the basis of ours.

And it is far more arrogant to claim that your Church can simply absolve everyone of sin than for our Church to maintain that God absolves the remaining sin from those who have died in an imperfect state of grace.

Furthermore, you have identified another contradictiion in your Church’s doctrine. Since your Church admits that everyone must stand before the Just Judge. To what end? After all, your Church has already absolved all your dead of sin. What is there left for God to judge? All your people are saved.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[dzheremi]

And three times now, I’ve repeated, your explanations conflict with your objection. Because the Catholic Church teaches it is BECAUSE of Christ’s sacrifice that men may be purified in Purgatory.

I doubt that the Coptic church would say that it may absolve people absent Christ’s sacrifice, either.

Therefore, you annul the basis for your own doctrine, when you claim that it can’t be the basis of ours.

Not really. They ultimately have the same end, and are through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, but we do maintain that purgatory, whether you view it as necessary from a particular reading of the Bible or the Fathers or what, is not the correct way to look at the judgment of souls. We deny it as a reality.

And it is far more arrogant to claim that your Church can simply absolve everyone of sin than for our Church to maintain that God absolves the remaining sin from those who have died in an imperfect state of grace.

But we do not claim that the church can “simply” absolve people somehow absent God. You are setting up a false dichotomy for the sake of making the Orthodox church seem unreasonable. I would hope that a Catholic such as yourself would know better than to separate absolution (or any other things that are very much established as part of Catholic sacraments like confession, etc.) from their proper context. When a Catholic is absolved of sin in confession, do you say that it is a function of the church only, as though God is not involved and it is merely the work of men, like some sort of magic trick? No. You don’t. And neither does the Orthodox church. All healing is through the sacrifice of our savior Jesus Christ. The end.

Furthermore, you have identified another contradictiion in your Church’s doctrine. Since your Church admits that everyone must stand before the Just Judge. To what end? After all, your Church has already absolved all your dead of sin. What is there left for God to judge? All your people are saved.

Similar to the response I have just given, I must ask if, since you apparently believe absolution leaves God with nothing to do, what then you would say about a Catholic who has been similarly absolved? You are imposing your own ideas on the Coptic Orthodox Church now. The Coptic Orthodox church does not talk about its people in terms of who is “saved” and who is not. That is Protestantism. Maybe you should watch the Alexandrian funeral video I posted for Joe to hear how the Coptic Orthodox talk about their dead. They believe that the martyrs are in heaven because to receive the crown of martyrdom is a great testament to faithfulness, but that obviously does not stop them from being prayed over that they may receive their heavenly reward. There is no contradiction in this. Similarly, the Coptic Orthodox Church, like all apostolic churches, teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation. So, why then, do all churches (Orthodox and Catholic) maintain confession and strong doctrines of repentance and other correctives to behavior for people who have already been baptized? Because, of course, a person may lose his salvation despite the gifts of the spirit. This is as true of those who have died as those who are still alive, because we cannot know the state of their souls. So it makes sense to pray for their absolution, too, so that any sin that may be in them is taken away. But again, there is no purgatory to accomplish this, because that’s simply not a part of Orthodox theology. Even the Eastern Orthodox, who have an optional belief in “toll houses” which Catholics usually point to as a kind of Eastern purgatory (though the Easterners certainly do not agree) deny the uniquely Latin understanding of purgatory.

 

[dzheremi]

Joe:

Thank you for that quote from the Stromata. I will bring it to Fr. Marcus when I next see him to hear what he thinks of it.

Gary:

No one is following blindly in the first place, and if they were, I don’t see how theorizing about this or that would help them. As I wrote to Joe, the experience is far different than the speculation, no matter who is doing it or for what reason.

Furthermore, I wonder why you place Rome somehow above or outside mankind. “Rome has so far exceeded mankind”, as though Rome is not composed of human beings itself…

“Listen, if Rome wasn’t doing what it is today, we would be behind in many fields which we cannot afford to do in this age.”

Is this the point of the Church? I do not think so.

The rest of your post kind of veers off into political/social commentary that I don’t see the point in responding to. Theology is theology and politics is politics, and while both may influence/corrupt each other in some ways, it is better to remain apart from the world and have no defined role in its innovations than to enter into it and become yolked to it such that it distorts the purpose of being in the first place. We are sojourners in this place. The brilliance of men is nothing but what God has bestowed upon them, often to their detriment when they chose not to offer the world back to God for its purification, but instead went off on humanistic/atheistic pursuits as though their elevated human knowledge will bring salvation in and of itself (the Pelagianism of modern political culture, if you will). No, we have no part in that view. It is heresy just as surely as any other idea that denies God or puts anything else ahead of His revelation.

 

[De_Maria]

I doubt that the Coptic church would say that it may absolve people absent Christ’s sacrifice, either…They ultimately have the same end, and are through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ,

My point exactly.

but we do maintain that purgatory, whether you view it as necessary from a particular reading of the Bible or the Fathers or what, is not the correct way to look at the judgment of souls. We deny it as a reality.

That’s an opinion without anything to substantiate it. I rest upon my arguments and proofs.

But we do not claim that the church can “simply” absolve people somehow absent God.

You are still making my point. We don’t claim that the souls in Purgatory are cleansed absent of God.

You are setting up a false dichotomy for the sake of making the Orthodox church seem unreasonable.

It is you who set up the false dichotomy. I simply identified it.

I would hope that a Catholic such as yourself would know better than to separate absolution (or any other things that are very much established as part of Catholic sacraments like confession, etc.) from their proper context.

But you never said anything about confession did you? You said this was a funeral liturgy. Do you hold confession at a funeral?

When a Catholic is absolved of sin in confession, do you say that it is a function of the church only, as though God is not involved and it is merely the work of men, like some sort of magic trick? No. You don’t. And neither does the Orthodox church. All healing is through the sacrifice of our savior Jesus Christ. The end.

Ditto. All cleansing of souls is from the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. The end.

Similar to the response I have just given, I must ask if, since you apparently believe absolution leaves God with nothing to do, what then you would say about a Catholic who has been similarly absolved?

Our priests don’t absolve at funerals. They absolve in confession and on deathbeds while the person is still alive. There is no more merit after life is expired.

You are imposing your own ideas on the Coptic Orthodox Church now. The Coptic Orthodox church does not talk about its people in terms of who is “saved” and who is not. That is Protestantism.

That is Scripture. Please search for the word “saved” in Scripture.

Maybe you should watch the Alexandrian funeral video I posted for Joe to hear how the Coptic Orthodox talk about their dead. They believe that the martyrs are in heaven because to receive the crown of martyrdom is a great testament to faithfulness, but that obviously does not stop them from being prayed over that they may receive their heavenly reward. There is no contradiction in this. Similarly, the Coptic Orthodox Church, like all apostolic churches, teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation. So, why then, do all churches (Orthodox and Catholic) maintain confession and strong doctrines of repentance and other correctives to behavior for people who have already been baptized? Because, of course, a person may lose his salvation despite the gifts of the spirit. This is as true of those who have died as those who are still alive, because we cannot know the state of their souls. So it makes sense to pray for their absolution, too, so that any sin that may be in them is taken away. But again, there is no purgatory to accomplish this, because that’s simply not a part of Orthodox theology. Even the Eastern Orthodox, who have an optional belief in “toll houses” which Catholics usually point to as a kind of Eastern purgatory (though the Easterners certainly do not agree) deny the uniquely Latin understanding of purgatory.

You are confusing many issues. Please stick to the subject. At this point, you have two questions to resolve.

Do you believe that your Church’s doctrine receives its efficacy from the sacrifice of Jesus Christ? So do we feel about Purgatory. If you deny us on that criteria, you deny your own.

Secondly, I never heard of anyone’s sins being absolved at their funeral. If that is what your Church does, She is usurping God’s prerogative.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[dzheremi]

That’s an opinion without anything to substantiate it. I rest upon my arguments and proofs.

That’s nice. I rest upon Orthodox teaching, which is united in rejecting the Latin purgatory.

You are still making my point. We don’t claim that the souls in Purgatory are cleansed absent of God.

I never said you did. I was responding to your assertion that Christ had no role in absolution in the Orthodox church, because the Church absolves the people. This is not directly related to a discussion on purgatory but that you’ve seized on it as some sort of point against Orthodoxy. The Orthodox object to purgatory because it is absent from the Fathers (in the Orthodox understanding of their teachings, anyhow) and creates some theological problems, as related in the article by HG Bishop Youssef.

But you never said anything about confession did you? You said this was a funeral liturgy. Do you hold confession at a funeral?

What are you talking about? I mentioned confession in a general comment about sacraments – “confession, etc.”, see? I’m not getting into an unnecessary argument with you about that, too. Please read more carefully.

Our priests don’t absolve at funerals. They absolve in confession and on deathbeds while the person is still alive. There is no more merit after life is expired.

I honestly don’t understand the Coptic funerary rites as they relate to this point. I’ve never been to a Coptic funeral, and I have received contradictory information on this point from Coptic people I know. I will have to take these questions to my priest at some point in the future. I would agree that after death there is no chance in the believer’s personal life, but if (as I posited in another post) HG Bishop Youssef really meant that mercy and forgiveness is prayed for the dead person, then there is no real issue here. Such prayers are already said in regular liturgies. I provided one such example from the most commonly prayed liturgy (St. Basil) some time ago.

That is Scripture. Please search for the word “saved” in Scripture.

Ugh. I see now you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. In the context in which I wrote this, I was comparing your idea that “all your (Orthodox) people are saved” with the reality that the Orthodox church does not talk about its people in those terms (only the saints are taken to be in heaven as a matter of course; I don’t think this is any different than the RC). We work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and always pray for mercy that we know we do not deserve. That too is scripture.

Do you believe that your Church’s doctrine receives its efficacy from the sacrifice of Jesus Christ?

“It’s efficacy”, as opposed to…? This is more compartmentalization of the faith into philosophical categories that are alien to the experience of the faith. I can’t answer the question as asked because this isn’t how the faith is thought of or taught. We have received our faith from the apostles, and so long as we continue in it, we don’t worry about or puzzle over such things. St. Mark the evangelist and martyr brought the faith to Egypt. Was St. Mark’s teaching “efficacious”? 2,000 years of unbroken Christian tradition speak for themselves.

So do we feel about Purgatory. If you deny us on that criteria, you deny your own.

Huh? We are not caught up on efficacy or what have you to begin with. Our “criteria”, if you will, is that some things are in line with apostolic, Orthodox faith and some things are not. Purgatory is not.

Secondly, I never heard of anyone’s sins being absolved at their funeral. If that is what your Church does, She is usurping God’s prerogative.

You play the harp quite well, but honestly this is tiresome. Goodbye.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Rome has so far exceeded mankind”, .

My mistake bad chose of words.

My thinking is where Rome has excelled of recent in many fields. Granted there’s much to be learned of unknowns. However, we shouldn’t dismiss their effort either. Ive read the Coptic Church links, little more of the ones close to me so I can communicate in person. Its a process.

Peace

 

[De_Maria]

That’s nice. I rest upon Orthodox teaching, which is united in rejecting the Latin purgatory.

That’s good. I leave it to the reader to decide between you and I, who has provided the best evidence for their beliefs.

I never said you did. …

Yes, in fact you did. It is your main objection. The one you share with Protestants. I’m surprised you forgot so soon:
Originally Posted by dzheremi

"…] we definitely reject this belief because if the purifying fire will cleanse us from sin, then Christ’s death was in vain.

What are you talking about? I mentioned confession in a general comment about sacraments – “confession, etc.”, see? I’m not getting into an unnecessary argument with you about that, too. Please read more carefully.

I am reading quite carefully. Your mention of your church absolving souls came with the reproduction of the funeral liturgy:

Originally Posted by dzheremi
See again my previous explanation, with quotes from the text of the liturgy itself.

The Coptic Orthodox view on the Prayer for the Departed

We pray for those who departed from this world not because we believe in the purgatory but following St. Paul who prayed for Onesiphorus saying, “The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day” (2 Tim 1:18). In that Day meant in the Day of Judgment…**Our Church absolves the soul of the departed during the prayer. **She absolves her from all the sins she committed while in the flesh. We say to God, 'this soul has departed from us absolved by the church. We do not retain any sin for her…we intercede for her for You O Lord know the weakness of man…

NOW DO YOU REMEMBER?

I honestly don’t understand the Coptic funerary rites as they relate to this point. I’ve never been to a Coptic funeral, and I have received contradictory information on this point from Coptic people I know. I will have to take these questions to my priest at some point in the future. I would agree that after death there is no chance in the believer’s personal life, but if (as I posited in another post) HG Bishop Youssef really meant that mercy and forgiveness is prayed for the dead person, then there is no real issue here. Such prayers are already said in regular liturgies. I provided one such example from the most commonly prayed liturgy (St. Basil) some time ago.

Your problem, not mine. Before you post something as a rebuttal, you ought to understand it.

Ugh. I see now you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. In the context in which I wrote this, I was comparing your idea that “all your (Orthodox) people are saved” with the reality that the Orthodox church does not talk about its people in those terms (only the saints are taken to be in heaven as a matter of course; I don’t think this is any different than the RC). We work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and always pray for mercy that we know we do not deserve. That too is scripture.

Yeah. Apparently you don’t know as much or as little about Coptic theology as Catholic.

Therefore, I say again. Using that PROTESTANT objection, you shoot down your own theology.

“It’s efficacy”, as opposed to…? This is more compartmentalization of the faith into philosophical categories that are alien to the experience of the faith. I can’t answer the question as asked because this isn’t how the faith is thought of or taught.

For you. Remember that. Your experience of faith is not everyone else’s.

We have received our faith from the apostles, and so long as we continue in it, we don’t worry about or puzzle over such things. St. Mark the evangelist and martyr brought the faith to Egypt. Was St. Mark’s teaching “efficacious”? 2,000 years of unbroken Christian tradition speak for themselves.

Do you believe that God is one Holy Trinity in three Divine Persons? If you do, then you are beneficiary of the worry and puzzlement of the early Church Fathers. Because that is not in Scripture.

Huh? We are not caught up on efficacy or what have you to begin with. Our “criteria”, if you will, is that some things are in line with apostolic, Orthodox faith and some things are not. Purgatory is not.

You’re lost. It is you arguing for its own sake. Purgatory is a part of Apostolic Teaching. Just as is the Holy Trinity. Your self contradicting denials notwithstanding.

You play the harp quite well, but honestly this is tiresome. Goodbye.

So long.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, in fact you did. It is your main objection. The one you share with Protestants. I’m surprised you forgot so soon:
Originally Posted by dzheremi

This quote from Bishop Moussa has to do with the Coptic objection to the concept of purgatory. It is not about how you understand purgatory as working, but the implications of this idea to the Orthodox.

I am reading quite carefully. Your mention of your church absolving souls came with the reproduction of the funeral liturgy:

You said “But you never said anything about confession did you? You said this was a funeral liturgy. Do you hold confession at a funeral?”, showing that you apparently did not understand that I was bringing up confession just as an example of a sacrament, not to start a new discussion.

NOW DO YOU REMEMBER?

All-caps posting like this reads like the whining of a screaming eight year old.

Your problem, not mine. Before you post something as a rebuttal, you ought to understand it.

I’ve already posted my understanding of it (post 232: “…and this is what I was going to say before others suggested that there might be other explanations…”), which I stand by and was only forced to reconsider when a Coptic friend of mine (perhaps in error; again, I need to ask my priest about this) asserted that there was in fact no absolution in the text.

Yeah. Apparently you don’t know as much or as little about Coptic theology as Catholic.

I am not sure what you’re trying to say here, but…yes, I am quite new to Coptic Orthodoxy. I only had the opportunity to begin attending liturgies after moving to Albuquerque about two months ago, so I am still very new to to the faith. Thanks for pointing that out (I think).

Therefore, I say again. Using that PROTESTANT objection, you shoot down your own theology.

Yes, you’ve repeated this enough. Again, though, I do not accept the retroactive approach to history of your apologetics.

For you. Remember that. Your experience of faith is not everyone else’s.

Of course. Everyone’s experience is his own. I’ve never understood what people here thought they were proving by pointing that out…

Do you believe that God is one Holy Trinity in three Divine Persons? If you do, then you are beneficiary of the worry and puzzlement of the early Church Fathers. Because that is not in Scripture.

Alright… :ehh:

You’re lost. It is you arguing for its own sake. Purgatory is a part of Apostolic Teaching. Just as is the Holy Trinity. Your self contradicting denials notwithstanding.

Purgatory is not part of Apostolic teaching, any of our arguments notwithstanding.