Does the Trinity really mean that God and Jesus are one?

[2Rollin_Stoned]

Bible scholars recognize the trinitarian doctrine as a post-New Testament development. The renowned Bible commentator J. R. Dummelow said:

The exact theological definition of the trinity was the result of a long process of development, which was not complete until the fifth century or even later (The One Volume Bible Commentary, p.cxii).

Latter-day Saints reject the creedal concept that God is one indivisible substance manifest in three persons. We define the trinity (although we use the biblical term “Godhead”) as being the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as revealed in scripture. We reject the teachings of men as found in such documents as the Nicene and Athanasian creeds.

This is from a Mormon site which tells us that our OP is LDS.
The above excerpt is from an article in which the author purports that Mormons are Christians, an opinion that I doubt because they reject the trinity and for very poor reasons…I also understand that they reject the diety of Jesus, which IMO makes them anything but actual Christians. The LDS has far too many weird books and doctrines for me to accept them as believing brothers.

 

[2Rollin_Stoned]

mosesnoah:

We are not to follow Religion and Doctines that are written by Religion, just what is in the Bible. Here’s a few reasons:

Read Exodus 20:5 “You shall not bow down before them or worship them, for I, the Lord, your God am a jealous God…” Demons lurk on idols that do not walk, hear, touch, feel, think or talk. Now read Revelation 9:20, That part of mankind which escaped the plagues did not repent of the idols they had made. They did not give up the worship of demons, or of gods made from gold and silver, from bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk”. Think about this one when you see a statue in a place of worship and how it makes our jealous God feel.

Perhaps Jesus Christ was tortured and died on a Tree (see attachment three) and not a Cross as recently discussed by Scholars. If your child died by a Gun would you wear one on a chain around your neck? When the Pharisees were successful in killing Christ, it made them happy and they said it was good day to make that happen. So why do we call this terrible day when he was tortured and suffered to death before the glorious resurrection occurred “Good Friday”. Why has several church leaders encouraged their members to go see the Mel Gibson’s “Passion of the Christ” movie that portrays violence, something the Bible speaks against, rather then a movie that portrays all of his teachings? After Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote the first four Chapters of the NT (the Gospel) we learn later that Peter and the apostles wrote this during their missionaries speaking to the Pharisees in Jerusalem in Act 5:30 “The God of our fathers has raised up Jesus whom you put to death, hanging him on a tree”. Read earlier remarks on how Satan has taken away worship to our “jealous” God thru the use of Graven Images made from wood, stone and bronze in Rev. 9:20. This also ties to the OT to Moses’ comments in Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven…”.

If Jesus Christ was tortured and killed on his Donkey when he road into Jerusalem, to knock over the Money Changer’s coins in front of the Temple, would we have a Donkey on top of every Catholic Church today? We probably would.

But no, the Vatican and the Oakland Diocese continue to defend them which violate the Mosaic Law and further demonstrates the point I am making about false religion. Jehovah God in the Mosaic Law says those who bring justice to criminals receives favor in the eyes of the Lord, so therefore the Catholic Religion is not receiving favor by refusing to pursue justice to the stated 2% of their Priests. Do I need to say more?

This is the same poster that was suspended the other day after an identical attack.

 

[jimmy]

Here is a second century writer who demonstrates the Trinity. This is Irenaeus.

I would also like to say that Ambrose, in the middle of the 4th century, believed in the Trinity. You can read his three books on the Holy Spirit.

I would like to add that Ignatius, end of the first century, taught that Christ was God. Here is a quote from his epistle to the Ephesians.

Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning1* of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united*2* and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God*: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.

 

[Church_Militant]

hey it’s ole tv55323 back again under a new name…

 

[mosesnoah]

Jimmy SEE FIRST PART OF RESPONSE HERE
Today’s news reports 800 Million has been spent by Catholics regarding Priest molestations issues. Therefore, it is false religion I spent 40 years of my life following. Another 2 Mill was in the news this weekend here in the SF bay area awarded by the Oakland diocese. As a devout Catholic followers I have come into truths that bless me thoughout the day and I comunicate now with the Holy Spitit as hard as this may sound for you to beliveve and have witnessed 7 miracles recently that have taken over my life and I have dropped my quest for money and preach to the poor during the day giving them a few dollars and reading the Bible to them, it makes them smile. I think about God and Jesus every moment during my waking day and the sleep has become interesting. I am concerned about Revelations and the unfortunate predicted outcome because of what happened during WWII and that Italy/Gemany had the holocaust and what God now communicates to me about Rev. 17-18. This may be hard to believe and I can’t tell you all that I know quite yet.
I read in the San Francisco Chronicle in February, 2005 that there are over 1,000 law suits pending against Catholic Priests for molestation. What does your apology Department mean that molestation is only 2% of Catholic Priests? This is horrible, why defend them and say it is only 2%? One case is too many and 1,000 tell me its false religion they preach. Would you leave your young boy with 10 Catholic Priests strangers for a weekend retreat?

 

[mosesnoah]

SECOND PART HERE

If molestation occurs from Priests following a true religion, then what worse things do Priests do who are following false religion? I feel the pain of these young Boys fathers and the anguish they must be going through, just thinking of those 1,000+ pending lawsuits.

Shame on the Vatican for not pursuing maximum punishment to these violators. Shame on the Oakland Diocese for not pursuing maximum punishment and hiding what they can. Shame on your Apology Department for saying it is only .3% and there should not be one Priest having forced sex with young Boys. Do you feel OK with this? If there are 2% of Priest’s who are molesters, then how can the Apology Department claim in the same paragraph the Catholics are the “one true Church”? The apostles said Priests can marry once. It makes me sick that they abused their authority. That is why Matthew 23:9 taught Priests not to be called Fathers as it places them in the same authority of God and they should be called Brothers instead. Come on, read the exact scripture in Matthew and don’t try and change the meaning. We are all brothers and sisters and there is only one Father in a religious sense who is the One in Heaven and all others like to sit at the head table. Does Matthew talk about the one who appears to be in the front of the line is actually in the back and may have the hardest time entering the Kingdom?

The Apologetic Department wrote this to me in their letter, “It proves that man is capable of committing grave sins”. “It doesn’t count as evidence against the Church’s teaching claim (one, true Church”. “After all, the apostle Peter also did morally bad things, as when he behaved hypocritically in Antioch”. Does the fact that the apostle Peter sometimes sinner mean he cannot be used by God as an instrument of infallible teaching?” How do you feel that the Apologetic Department has put the apostle Peter in the same category with Priest molesters? Isn’t that the category that Michael Jackson the Pop Star is currently being tried for?

 

[mosesnoah]

Here is part III
Rev. 17:7-8 speaks of Babylon the Great, the prophecy of Rome (Vatican?) which has not yet occurred. Jeremiah Chapter 51:49 in the OT refers to Babylon as the ones responsible for the Israelites being “slaughtered” which could be symbolic in who will fall under Babylon the Great since the Bible uses symbolism and the OT and NT ties together. Rev 17:3-7 discusses the Beast (false religion) in Scarlet Red representing the blood of the millions killed when “nation went against nation” in WWII by those who were responsible and/or supported it. The Smith’s Bible Dictionary published in the early 1900’s says “Babylon (or Rome) in another form, the Papal despotism, a compound of Paganism and Christianity”. I was alarmed when I looked up Papal in the Dictionary.

It will fall as prophesized and Babylon the Great is Catholic Religion and the whole mass of false religion. I wrote this 100% on my own and still testify that we are to follow God (not religion) and the laws that were written into the Bible and let it be known that the Catholics did not write the Bible, God did. Simply try and have Catholic Answers, answer these questions in a 1, 2,and 3 format (they won’t):

1.             Why has a great veil been put over Jehovah’s name and glory taken from him?

2.             Why is the second Commandment been ignored allowing praise to even the True God thru statues and graven images that don’t hear, walk of talk?

3.             Why does the Vatican and Oakland Diocese not come down heavy on the priest molestation issues and bring justice that would please God?

Please don’t feel compelled to pray for me, pray for your own salvation by finding the real Truths in the Bible on your own without help from others like your Apologetic Department. I gave the Catholic religion three years of continued devotion while learning these truths and researching old writings about God’s name Jehovah on my own, that are being held under a great veil in this time of Babylon the Great.

Did the Vatican (Rome/Italy) object with the Germans during WWII? Did Hitler attend the Catholic Church and sit in the front during worship? Did the Vatican condemn the killing of the millions of Jews and thousands of our Christian Brothers and Sisters? Does Revelations concern you?

In the end, it is God we answer to and there may still be time to save yourself.

Zeal Jehovah’s name! Zeal Jehovah’s name!!!

 

[Seeks_God]

Thanks for your insight…(that’s sarcasm by the way, but I mean it with a light heart ) I think I’ve accepted that I’ll let God decide…

 

[Church_Militant]

I love Catholics and served on a Catholic Finance Council until not too long ago, but would like to raise an interesting topic

Yeah…right…you’re a joke and a clown and your mommy should take away your computer because you can’t be resposnsible with it. You’re the same jerk that posted the a-c thread False Religion the other day. If you think all your lame rhetoric will turn the heart of one Catholic you are wrong. Trash like this just makes us love our faith all the more and makes us despise bigots all the more as well.

there’s nothing interesting about this, and it’ll all be gone in the morning and you’ll be banned.

Good riddance to bad rubbish!

 

[jimmy]

You obviously did not do enough research because Irenaeus called Christ God, Ignatius called Christ God, Theophilus used word Trinity to describe The Father, Christ, and The Holy Spirit.

 

[mosesnoah]

These are Doctorines that is other than what is in the Bible.

 

[Seeks_God]

jimmy:

You obviously did not do enough research because Irenaeus called Christ God, Ignatius called Christ God, Theophilus used word Trinity to describe The Father, Christ, and The Holy Spirit.

in addition Christ called himself, “I AM” the same thing God called himself in the Old Testament…

 

[jimmy]

Seeks God:

in addition Christ called himself, “I AM” the same thing God called himself in the Old Testament…

In addition, John1 calls him God in the first sentence. 1John5;7 calls him and the Father and the Spirit all one. It is very clear that Christ is God along with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Seeks_God]

mosesnoah:

These are Doctorines that is other than what is in the Bible.

Should we cite scripture that states Tradition is as equally important as Scripture? Don’t forget about us Catholics not accepting Sola Scriptura…

 

[Seeks_God]

jimmy:

In addition, John1 calls him God in the first sentence. 1John5;7 calls him and the Father and the Spirit all one. It is very clear that Christ is God along with the Holy Spirit.

oh yeah!

 

[jimmy]

mosesnoah:

These are Doctorines that is other than what is in the Bible.

No they are not, you have been given quotes that specifically call him God. Besides it was you that brought up the church fathers and said they did not teach that Christ was God. Thomas called Christ “my God”. John called Christ God in the first verse of his gospel. Christ called himself “I AM”, which was a term that was the name that God had used in the OT. “Before Abraham was, I AM.” is a statement that God The Father used and God The Son used.

The thing about the Mormons is that they poped up in the middle of the ninteenth century with no authority other than that of Joseph Smith. The Catholic Church has authority from Christ who established it.

 

[mosesnoah]

I is not true that John 1 says the Trinity is “one”, it says they are in “agreement”. Read the most current Edition of the NIV Bible that has gone back to “agreement”, the original Hebrew Scribtures. “one” was a marginal footnote that the Catholics made that led to the “mystery” you stated earlier tonight.

 

[jimmy]

mosesnoah:

These are Doctorines that is other than what is in the Bible.

The problem with that statement is that the bible is a product of the Catholic Church. It was the Catholic Church that said what was scripture and what was not. Look at the councils of Carthage, Hippo, and Rome. Show me the cannon of scripture in scripture. Show me where it says that the gospel of Matthew is scripture. Show me where it says that the gospel of Mark is scripture. How about the epistles of Paul. Where does it say that Ephesians is scripture? It doesn’t. The only evidence there is is from the fathers of the Catholic Church.

 

[jimmy]

mosesnoah:

I is not true that John 1 says the Trinity is “one”, it says they are in “agreement”. Read the most current Edition of the NIV Bible that has gone back to “agreement”, the original Hebrew Scribtures. “one” was a marginal footnote that the Catholics made that led to the “mystery” you stated earlier tonight.

Show me the original Hebrew scripture. I would bet that you could not show me it since it does not exist. You are fighting an arguement based on silence. I will show you one of the oldest versions of the bible, the latin vulgate. The vulgate is from 382AD, which is older than the other versions.

Spiritus et aqua et sanguis et tres unum sunt

“unum sunt” means “they are one” . So, you see, the oldest version of the bible we have says that they are one, not that they are in agreement.

The NIV is not the inspired text of the bible. It is a translation.

 

[mosesnoah]

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the Gospel. An account of the glorious life of Jesus Christ the Messiah and a major part of the scriptures because it leads readers to believe in the Messiah.