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Does the ubiquitous "Gather" hymnal violate the principles of Vatican II?
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aloysiusg
Guest
That’s what i sing in the shower!! 
Actually, I’m guessing he’s being facetious.
Actually, I’m guessing he’s being facetious.
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Cat
Guest
I don’t know this tune.
And I think it’s wrong to assume that people who like contemporary praise music are “me” or “I” centered. That is an outrageous assumption.
I have played piano for many decades in churches, Protestant and now Catholic, and I have met very few Christians who are “me centered.” I think this is just one of those stereotypes that some people have about Christians who think differently than them. And it’s wrong.
I think we shouldn’t spread evil rumors unless we can actually name names. If all your intimate Christian friends and acquaintances who like contemporary Christian praise music are really blatently “me-centered” to the point where you are certain of it beyond a doubt, then why associate with them?
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puzzleannie
Guest
Gather is NOT contemporary, it is at least 20 years out of date if not more, and the songs of the era in which this collection was compiled have not aged gracefully. 400 year old chants are more contemporary than 90% of what is in this book.
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NetNuncio
Guest
There are numerous concerns on both sides in these posts.
For those who want everything from GIA or OCP banned, nothing happens that fast. There are certainly things wrong in GIA and OCP’s hymnals, but both organizations also put out good things, but get your parish to do them. These are both money-making organizations who, more than anything, want to sell music. If more parishes did better music, more publishers would sell it.
So what’s the solution here? Less bashing of the publishers (although they share some of the blame), more trying to improve the quality of music in the parishes.
Now, for those of you who see no problems with some of the music in OCP and GIA hymnals, we as a culture seem to be obsessed with “I”, “we” and “us” (which is illustrated in the facetious rendering of Dan Schutte’s Here I am, Lord) in our liturgical music, which in reading Musicam Sacram and Sing to the Lord, is simply inappropriate. To say songs like Anthem or Companions on a Journey, which focus entirely on the self in some sort of horizontal congregational self-worship are ok is simply incorrect and to say “don’t worry about it” goes against the documents that say abuses must be “corrected with haste”. Certainly using music inappropriate to the liturgy is an abuse.
In any case…let’s not go overboard, but let’s certainly not let incorrect practices continue.
For those who want everything from GIA or OCP banned, nothing happens that fast. There are certainly things wrong in GIA and OCP’s hymnals, but both organizations also put out good things, but get your parish to do them. These are both money-making organizations who, more than anything, want to sell music. If more parishes did better music, more publishers would sell it.
So what’s the solution here? Less bashing of the publishers (although they share some of the blame), more trying to improve the quality of music in the parishes.
Now, for those of you who see no problems with some of the music in OCP and GIA hymnals, we as a culture seem to be obsessed with “I”, “we” and “us” (which is illustrated in the facetious rendering of Dan Schutte’s Here I am, Lord) in our liturgical music, which in reading Musicam Sacram and Sing to the Lord, is simply inappropriate. To say songs like Anthem or Companions on a Journey, which focus entirely on the self in some sort of horizontal congregational self-worship are ok is simply incorrect and to say “don’t worry about it” goes against the documents that say abuses must be “corrected with haste”. Certainly using music inappropriate to the liturgy is an abuse.
In any case…let’s not go overboard, but let’s certainly not let incorrect practices continue.
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crm114
Guest
The I-centeredness has its roots in protestantism. See for example the popular protestant hymn “How Great Thou Art,” which, despite its title, is not about the divine “Thou” at all, but about the greatness of the singer.
The I-centeredness of hymns was adopted, along with other dubious liturgical practices, after the Council, and contrary to the Council’s intent. We are only just getting over it now, and the worst of these practices will not be purged from the Church until the Council generation have gone on to our eternal reward (I am 53).
The I-centeredness of hymns was adopted, along with other dubious liturgical practices, after the Council, and contrary to the Council’s intent. We are only just getting over it now, and the worst of these practices will not be purged from the Church until the Council generation have gone on to our eternal reward (I am 53).
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crm114
Guest
“Contemporary praise music” belongs in concerts, not in the sacred liturgy.
Now, for extra credit, what is the source of these words:
*The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art. The main reason for this pre-eminence is that, as sacred song united to the words, it forms a necessary or integral part of the solemn liturgy… The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered with great care. *
Now, for extra credit, what is the source of these words:
*The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art. The main reason for this pre-eminence is that, as sacred song united to the words, it forms a necessary or integral part of the solemn liturgy… The treasure of sacred music is to be preserved and fostered with great care. *
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ethelzguy
Guest
Ah, but the music of today may well BE the “tradition” of tomorrow…everything that is touted as “traditional” music now, was NEW (oh, my!) music once apon a time.
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crm114
Guest
Original liturgical music is being written today. As you say, some will survive the test of time, some may not.Ah, but the music of today may well BE the “tradition” of tomorrow…everything that is touted as “traditional” music now, was NEW (oh, my!) music once apon a time.
The point you miss is that “contemporary praise music” is not liturgical music.
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ethelzguy
Guest
And, you obtain your facts to support this statement where?
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SeekerJen
Guest
Judging by the hymn numbers (we also used 483, 485, and 627 this weekend
) the OP is referring to the Gather Comprehensive hymnal, which was released just a few years ago and does a decent job of blending the old and new music. Our parish received a large donation for new hymnals and chose the Gather Comp to replace our old RitualSong books just last Easter. My only complaint is that the Gather Comp. has fewer psalm settings than RitualSong; in fact, our music director will often go back to RS for the psalms. GC has a better hymn selection, though (except not the Attende Domine, which I liked during Lent and which the RS did have).Now I wish we had used 519. That’s one of my all-time favorites and a real congregation-belter.
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Dauphin
Guest
If the USCCB approved this, that would make it good, right?
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Lepanto
Guest
Looks like the music director did an excellent job of cherry picking!The Mass I attended yesterday (May 18th) used the Gather hymnal.
The four hymns used were as follows:
485 O God, Almighty Father
483 Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty
627 You Are Mine
519 Holy God We Praise Thy Name
Now remind me, what is the issue with “Gather” ?? Seems like there’s plenty of “traditional” stuff in there.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
An interesting parody of “Here I Am, Lord”
("I,I,I, Lord, me, me, me) etc.
Right?
("I,I,I, Lord, me, me, me) etc.
Right?
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ethelzguy
Guest
Cherry picking???
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crm114
Guest
We don’t need Canadians to complain about the USCCB; we know all about it.If the USCCB approved this, that would make it good, right?
The USCCB in particular, and national episcopal conferences in general, are overrated, and are for the most part an excuse for ordinaries to shirk their responsibilities. What really needs to happen is for the bishop in every diocese to tell his priests to stop programming inappropriate music.
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crm114
Guest
It is not clear what facts you are seeking. Perhaps you could ask a specific question. Before doing so, you may want to familiarize yourself with the actual, rather than the reputed, teaching of the Second Vatican Council, as documented in Sacrosanctum Concilium.
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ethelzguy
Guest
Your prior post…
The point you miss is that “contemporary praise music” is not liturgical music.
Prove it
Is that clear enough?
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pnewton
Guest
His opinion is as valid as any here, but no more so. I think he communicates poorly, though, when he states that a hymnal violates any principle. It is an inanimate object and has no moral responsibility. It’s use can be wise or unwise depending on the user and the situation in which it is used.
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Cavaille-Coll
Guest
I don’t know the literal translation of the Swedish hymn “O Store Gud,” but when the current American text reads “Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee, how great Thou art…,” how can this refer to anyone but God? This is a great hymn of praise, Protestant though it may be, and cannot be put into the same class as Anthem, Gather Us In, or the rest of that narcissistic garbage.
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