Does this Prove The Catholic Church is The True Church?

[UniversalistGuy]

If one adopts a “live and let live” attitude, then there is no need for arguing. One say Christ really IS in the Eucharist, the other says it is merely symbolic, the both shug their shoulders and move on.

I think that could well be what happens inside Protestantism. And if it’s true that they’re all shrugging and don’t think it’s worth arguing about then to say that there are thirty-thousand denominations all claiming to be right isn’t true. It would be more accurate to say there are thirty-thousand denominations all agreeing to disagree, wouldn’t it?

But be assured that this attitude is a recent one and in the not too distant past Protestants were just as divided and adamant in the singular rightiousness of their beliefs as catholics are accused of historically speaking. the only thing they had in common to tie them together was their common belief that the Catholic Church was wrong - in everything.

You’re probably right.

As to what led to the reformation - No it was not changes in doctrine, but rather abuses of some practices (specifically indulgences) that was the spark. Doctrinally speaking The Church had not changed it’s teachings.

But it has developed them, correct?

 

[CMatt25]

As a Lutheran, what do you believe will happen to people that aren’t Christians and aren’t on that particular path you mentioned?

I’m not a Lutheran and can’t speak for gcnuss.

But speaking for me, Matt 7:1.

No way of me knowng the heart. I’m not God. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

Now - If God has a single mind, then either he is or he isn’t present in the Eucharist. Both the “real presence” and the “symbolic presence” views cannot be right and those who have chosen wrong, are on the wrong path.

While you’re thinking you have all the answers and every “i” dotted and “t” crossed correctly, try this one on for size as another example of God’s mind and path.

“For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.”

Might want to check out Matt 11:30 too about the burden required.

God bless you on your journey of faith and peace.

 

[Justin1982]

I haven’t been to a lot of different Protestant churches but I’ve gotten the impression that inside Protestantism there’s a kind of “live and let live” attitude. Seems to me the only people who think Protestants are arguing with each other all the time are non-Protestants. Also, I don’t see how you can seriously say that the Catholic Church has stuck to the same doctrines for the past 2,000 years. Wasn’t it changes to Christian doctrine by the Catholic Church that led to the Reformation?

The Catholic Church has stuck to many of the same doctrines as it did in the beginning, read the Didache from the around the year 100. Granted many things were never specifically defined in the early Church, they were followed because people never questioned them until a certain point in history (i.e. transubstantiation) when they needed a defining term. However on the Protestant side of the Christian coin many Christian doctrines have been trampled in quite a few of the denominations. Churches allowing the laity to make many of the decisions and greatly influence doctrine on gay marriage, abortion, female ordination (to name a few). Granted the Catholic Church is far from perfect She is much of the voice of reason in the cultural insanity of today.

 

[CMatt25]

The Catholic Church has stuck to many of the same doctrines as it did in the beginning, read the Didache from the around the year 100. Granted many things were never specifically defined in the early Church, they were followed because people never questioned them until a certain point in history (i.e. transubstantiation) when they needed a defining term. .

That’s good. But don’t forget our Lord left the earth about 70 yrs before then.

And maybe instead they needed defining because someone wanted to add burdens?

I don’t know but just some thoughts to ponder. Peace.

 

[gcnuss]

As a Lutheran, what do you believe will happen to people that aren’t Christians and aren’t on that particular path you mentioned?

That is up to God. While I could quote chapter and verse to support a contention that those who aren’t on what I understand to be the path are headed for perdition, that’s not my call.

 

[CMatt25]

That is up to God. While I could quote chapter and verse to support a contention that those who aren’t on what I understand to be the path are headed for perdition, that’s not my call.

Unless you’re CCC 846 and say who “could not be saved”.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

IF the Catholic faction of Christianity IS the “true church” which it claims…you may have a point…but since those of us outside the Catholic organization do not believe it’s claims…asking “where in the Bible” if you disagree with the Catholic church you can start your own church…makes no sense to me…I do believe in One Church…but it comprises members who happen to belong to the various branches of Christianity that place their trust in God’s work in Christ…not one single human organization.

Is this the church that St. Paul wrote about in 1 Tim 3:15? ~ “I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, if I am delayed, you may know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth”?

Or, is this “the invisible church of all true believers” that the Deformers invented in the 16th century in response to the avalanche of conflicting and competing denominations that developed from Luther’s novel ‘Sola Scriptura’ doctrine?

Or, is this a new definition? If so, would you please elaborate and provide the evidence for it?

Or, if it’s just your opinion, please let us know.

Thanks, Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

My objection to Protestantism claiming to be part of the “catholic” church is that each of the thirty-some-thousand denominations all claim to be THE One path to God. This causes schism over who is right, when the Catholic Church has stuck to her same doctrines for the past 2000 years.

Right on!

All Christian denominations are based on their founder(s)’ interpretation(s) of the same 66-book incomplete Bible, cut by Martin Luther. All of them teach conficting and competing doctrines and/or practices, and each claims to teach the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. But – no two of them agree about what the Bible means.

The Catholic Church teaches the Faith of the Apostles – delivered once for all to the saints (Jude 3). “The Catholic Church does not claim to be divinely inspired to add any new doctrines, only divinely protected to preserve and interpret the old ones,” the ‘deposit of faith’ placed in her trust by the Apostles. “She does not affirm additions, but denies subtractions.” (Quotes from philosopher and convert Peter Kreeft, Fundamentals of the Faith).

Jim Dandy
Ex-Protestant

 

[Justin1982]

That’s good. But don’t forget our Lord left the earth about 70 yrs before then.

And maybe instead they needed defining because someone wanted to add burdens?

I don’t know but just some thoughts to ponder. Peace.

You also must consider that these teachings came from the Apostles who did actually see and know Jesus in his human form. I think a major shortfall of people today is that they see us today and don’t consider that people living in those days had a much longer attention span and better memory because there were not all these distractions like TV, internet and IPhone. Contemplation is a wonderful thing when you turn off the television and just think about the things you absorb during the day rather than go from one worldy device to the another for constant distraction.

I would not equate definitions to added burdens, real presence was never questioned if you read the early Church fathers. The Church properly defines terms when they are put into question. For about 1000 years nobody questioned the real presence so why did it need a defining term? Jesus never discussed contraception because it was understood that we are to be fruitful and multiply. The Church did not define the teaching against Contraception until modern times because it obviously was not proposed as a question.

 

[JRKH]

While you’re thinking you have all the answers and every “i” dotted and “t” crossed correctly, try this one on for size as another example of God’s mind and path.

Forgive me if I come across as a Know-it-all. In fact I know nothing…

“For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.”

Might want to check out Matt 11:30 too about the burden required.

The verse cited does not describe the burden except for it’s weight.
Have you ever tried to carry something that was very light but large and difficult to handle? Something like a 4 X 8 sheet of 1/8 inch plywood for example? It isn’t the weight that is the problem it is the dimensions fo the thing.
Followng Christ is like this. Simple belief is not enough for even Satan believes in Christ.
The core of our belief is Christ and our path is Love, as taught by Him. Simple as can be - Love God and Love neighbor. Simple right???
Simple yes, Easy no.

God bless you on your journey of faith and peace.

And you my friend

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I think that could well be what happens inside Protestantism. And if it’s true that they’re all shrugging and don’t think it’s worth arguing about then to say that there are thirty-thousand denominations all claiming to be right isn’t true. It would be more accurate to say there are thirty-thousand denominations all agreeing to disagree, wouldn’t it?

Yes it would and one needs to ask ones self if that is what Christ teaches us to do.
Is that what the apostles chose to do in Acts 15?

But it has developed them, correct?

Yes doctrines have developed over 2000 years.

Peace
James

 

[CMatt25]

Forgive me if I come across as a Know-it-all. In fact I know nothing

I am 100% certain you know some things, James. You might just believe you know it all.

 

[JRKH]

I am 100% certain you know some things, James. You might just believe you know it all.

Perhaps it woudl be more accurate to say, I know nothing. I believe it all.

Peace
James

 

[guanophore]

Exactly. To be a 100% faithful Catholic one must believe the CC’s interpretation of Herself. Believe the ECFs had everything correct and believe history was recorded entirely correctly. A leap of faith is required by any measure.

CMatt, I beg you to refrain from posting lies of this kind about the Catholic faith. I know you have a lot of resentments toward Catholicism, but misrepresenting the faith on a public forum is not the appropriate way to deal with them.

A faithful Catholic must believe what God has revealed about the Church. This is what she believes about herself.

We do NOT believe the ECF’s had “everything correct” and you know that well.

We also do not hold human historical records on the same level as the Holy Scriptures, and you also know that well.

 

[guanophore]

More creditable than the Early Church Fathers and the Doctors of the Church?

You would take the word of the likes of these folks over the ECFs and Doctors of the Church?

Bart Erhman an Evangelical Christian who now considers himself an agnostic. How about Elaine Pagels who is best known for her studies and writing on the Gnostic Gospels and her belief that Paul of Tarsus was a Gnostic Christian. Then there is John Dominic Crossan, a former Catholic Priest who suggests Jesus was an illiterate Jewish cynic from a landless peasant background, initially a follower of John the Baptist. Crossan believes in “resurrection” by faith but holds that bodily resuscitation was never contemplated by early Christians. And Marcus J. Borg is among the most widely-known and influential voices in progressive Christianity and liberalism.

I will put my trust and faith in what Christ instituted and not some Johnny come lately.

This is important to take into consideration when having dialogue with Publisher. We must consider the source of his comments, and these being his sources, his posts can be read under the qualifications he has hailed as scholarly.

 

[CMatt25]

CMatt, I beg you to refrain from posting lies of this kind about the Catholic faith. I know you have a lot of resentments toward Catholicism, but misrepresenting the faith on a public forum is not the appropriate way to deal with them.

A faithful Catholic must believe what God has revealed about the Church. This is what she believes about herself.

We do NOT believe the ECF’s had “everything correct” and you know that well.

We also do not hold human historical records on the same level as the Holy Scriptures, and you also know that well.

Sorry Guan. Let me try to rephrase. Catholics with the adjective you use only believe the ECFs were correct on those things the CC interprets them to have been correct on. Doing so in the capacity in which She believes herself to be in. Peace.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

UniversalistGuy;6923092:

I think that could well be what happens inside Protestantism. And if it’s true that they’re all shrugging and don’t think it’s worth arguing about then to say that there are thirty-thousand denominations all claiming to be right isn’t true. It would be more accurate to say there are thirty-thousand denominations all agreeing to disagree, wouldn’t it?

Yes it would and one needs to ask ones self if that is what Christ teaches us to do.
Is that what the apostles chose to do in Acts 15?

No, it isn’t. But if they were around today they’d be faced with a completely different situation and it might seem good to them and to the Holy Spirit to agree to disagree.

UniversalistGuy;6923092:

But it has developed

them, correct? Yes doctrines have developed over 2000 years.

Peace
James

I see.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

guanophore;6925824:

CMatt, I beg you to refrain from posting lies of this kind about the Catholic faith. I know you have a lot of resentments toward Catholicism, but misrepresenting the faith on a public forum is not the appropriate way to deal with them.

A faithful Catholic must believe what God has revealed about the Church. This is what she believes about herself.

We do NOT believe the ECF’s had “everything correct” and you know that well.

We also do not hold human historical records on the same level as the Holy Scriptures, and you also know that well.

Sorry Guan. Let me try to rephrase. Catholics with the adjective you use only believe the ECFs were correct on those things the CC interprets them to have been correct on. Doing so in the capacity in which She believes herself to be in. Peace.

CMatt25,

I read your earlier post and I don’t understand what lies you’ve posted or how you’ve misrepresented the Catholic faith. Perhaps you can answer this question for me (I’m impressed with the way you responded to the public accusation that you’re a liar, which is why I’m putting the question to you ). If one Catholic disagrees with another about a matter of faith or morals, what’s the usual way of settling the dispute? I think in Protestantism they’ve developed their approach to disagreements over the past 500 years and now they just agree to disagree and everybody goes their own way following their consciences in good faith. I don’t think Catholics like that approach but if the alternative is just to get mad and start name–calling then it’s hard to see how there can be any peace. Is there peace inside the Catholic Church or would you advise me to look for it elsewhere?

 

[CMatt25]

CMatt25,

I read your earlier post and I don’t understand what lies you’ve posted or how you’ve misrepresented the Catholic faith. Perhaps you can answer this question for me (I’m impressed with the way you responded to the public accusation that you’re a liar, which is why I’m putting the question to you ). If one Catholic disagrees with another about a matter of faith or morals, what’s the usual way of settling the dispute? I think in Protestantism they’ve developed their approach to disagreements over the past 500 years and now they just agree to disagree and everybody goes their own way following their consciences in good faith. I don’t think Catholics like that approach but if the alternative is just to get mad and start name–calling then it’s hard to see how there can be any peace. Is there peace inside the Catholic Church or would you advise me to look for it elsewhere?

Universalist Guy, I’m only speaking from personal experience. But from experience especially here on CAF the Catholic who deems himself or herself the most faithful corrects the Catholic deemed less faithful.

This is done even though in part the catechism teaches in CCC 1782 “Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.” And in CCC 1790 “A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself.”

But the Catholic who is among the greatest faithful goes on to include your conscience must be informed which makes sense. But then they say if your conscience is properly informed you would be adhering to everything. And if you’re not, then you’re conscience is not informed.

I’m not sure if you are looking for “agree to disagree” if you’ll find that viewpoint enough in the Catholic Church. That is something you’ll have to decide. There is a wave in the Church today seeking a “purer” Church whatever that means. Even if “purer” means smaller. But I would never advise you not to look at the Catholic Church. Many as you can probably see from the forum have found peace. You might too. And despite sometimes the appearance some here on CAF like to give, in reality from my experience the Church in the pews is made up of many members, not all in lockstep. I pray you can surmise I’m one of those though who when I pray, I feel the Holy Spirit telling me to emphasize the unity we have and to agree to disagree on the things we differ on. I confess at times I fail. I am human. I also recognize we are talking about faith. Of course I’m also one of those deemed less faithful.

A former Roman rite Catholic priest now a priest in TEC once told me, if we open our hearts to God spirit, He will tell us where He wants us to go. I hope this helped. God bless you on your journey and peace.