Does time have a beginning?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Callin
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Do any of the people discussing time here, really understand it?

I mean isn’t it just a bit mind-boggling?

I appreciate the question, don’t get me wrong and I think they are great questions to ask. It just seems conceptually, to go above our heads. It’s like one of those things, our brains just don’t seem big enough to handle.

Or at least my brain.
 
Do any of the people discussing time here, really understand it?

I mean isn’t it just a bit mind-boggling?

I appreciate the question, don’t get me wrong and I think they are great questions to ask. It just seems conceptually, to go above our heads. It’s like one of those things, our brains just don’t seem big enough to handle.

Or at least my brain.
Exactly
 
God is greater than everything. “Everything” includes Time. God is greater than Time.

There is nothing which is equal to God. There is nothing which can set limits on God. By its simple one-way movement from past to present to future, Time sets limits upon everything else it touches, but Time can not limit God.

To theorize that Time existed eternally with God is to theorize that there is something else apart from God, which is not God, which is at least equal to God. That theory marginalizes God, and brings Him down to a less-than-omnipotent level. That theory elevates Time to the level of God, and sets limits on God. Therefore, that theory can not be true.

God created everything. “Everything” includes Time. God created Time.

Anything God created had a beginning.

Time had a beginning.

Time will have an end.
 
God is utterly irrelevant, as at this point he is an unproven, unsupported hypothesis. Space and time are not independent, they are in fact one thing, space-time.
I disagree. God is absolutely relevant. Time is only a dimension, specifically, according to physicists, it is a dimension, a matter of relativity, broadly speaking a matter of of the relationship between objects in motion (there are other ocnsiderations but that is the broad picture.)

Asa such, as a dimension, time is an inherent part of creation - of the created order, limited to the created space/time continuum. Therefore it is an effect of the creation, and was created by God. as part of the created space/time continuum, it will end with the destruction of the universe and the creation of the new one as described at the conclusion of the Revelation of St. John.

Surely there are physicists on this forum who can go into more detail than I on this matter.

Blessings,
Irl
 
I didn’t feel like reading all of this stuff so someone might have said this before but whatever.

I think it helps to think of time as a number line. It goes on to infinite in all directions.

What messes most people up is the cause/effect structure everyone seems to have formed their perception of time around. On a number line, two doesn’t necessarily follow one, it only does in your perception of the number line if your experienceable field is progressing in that manor.

Like the number line, space time is not moving but we are. We are experiencing time progressively and this is added into our perceptual field progressively.

Time did not begin, it always was – with or without God – Time will not end, but the communal organism will continue to experience time progressively in the manor we have forever.

Whose to say the effect didn’t force the cause. One didn’t have to occur before the other, you just saw one of them first.

If you want to believe in God maybe it will help you by thinking of God as transcending this and sort of looking down at a time line with a marker labeled people moving to from left to right. I don’t know whatever helps.
 
I disagree. God is absolutely relevant…Therefore it is an effect of the creation, and was created by God.
Prove it.

As i said “God is utterly irrelevant, as at this point he is an unproven, unsupported hypothesis.” In fact its not even a proper hypothesis, as for a hypothesis by its very nature MUST be testable.
 
Prove it.

As i said “God is utterly irrelevant, as at this point he is an unproven, unsupported hypothesis.” In fact its not even a proper hypothesis, as for a hypothesis by its very nature MUST be testable.
In all respect, your question is irrelevant as it insists on the scientific proof of the existence of an entity which is outside the created spacetime continuum, and is therefore beyond the reach of exploration by the scientific method with its testable hypotheses.

Therefore it is pointless to waste time arguing with those whose minds are made up that nothing exists which is not able to be studied within the limits of spacetime using the scientific method.

As someone wrote, for those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who refuse to believe, no proof will suffice.

Have a nice day. Blessings,
Irl
 
Prove it.

As I said “God is utterly irrelevant, as at this point he is an unproven, unsupported hypothesis.” In fact its not even a proper hypothesis, as for a hypothesis by its very nature MUST be testable.
I think you are making a claim about what sorts of hypotheses are scientifically valid, but I’m not sure that it holds up. It was a nonfalsifiable hypothesis, for example, that there is an island of transuranic elements yet to be discovered around atomic numer X (I’m no science expert). In fact, the claim that a hypothesis must be testable to be scientifically useful is itself untestable.
 
Time did not begin, it always was – with or without God – Time will not end, but the communal organism will continue to experience time progressively in the manor we have forever.
I know a number of Catholic apologists (and physicists - Jesuits, actually) who say that eternity is beyond time (time being a dimension within the spacetime continuum, therefore what those in eternity experience is “an eternal present.” They also point out the futility of trying to fit eternity within the familiar framework we know as created beings living within and limited to (for now) the spacetime continuum which, being created by God, will one day come to an end. Eternity, however, is beyond the 4 dimensions (time being a dimension) of the spacetime continuum.

My scientific background is in the biological sciences. One of the bishops of my Church has a degree in theoretical math, and is far more conversant about this than I. There are also physics blogs out there which go into this. Google “Physics”+“Time,” or look up a Jesuit University and call one of the Physics Department’s faculty members.

Blessings,
Irl
 
In all respect, your question is irrelevant as it insists on the scientific proof of the existence of an entity which is outside the created spacetime continuum, and is therefore beyond the reach of exploration by the scientific method with its testable hypotheses.

Therefore it is pointless to waste time arguing with those whose minds are made up that nothing exists which is not able to be studied within the limits of spacetime using the scientific method.

As someone wrote, for those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who refuse to believe, no proof will suffice.

Have a nice day. Blessings,
Irl
This is where i would have to point out to you the big difference between believe and knowledge. If you want to make scientific claims about god, you must first prove there IS a god.
 
This is where i would have to point out to you the big difference between believe and knowledge. If you want to make scientific claims about god, you must first prove there IS a god.
I resectfully disagree, Bob. Because God is an entity from beyond and above (supra) nature (hence supernatural) - from above and beyond the created universe, He is forever immune to examination and discovery by science and /or by applications of the scientific method. God can only be understood by faith, and that faith is likewise a gift from God.

By the same token, I can assure you that claims such as yours fall on deaf ears on forums such as this, the members of whom are people of faith.

As an aside, I would suggest that you are also a person of faith as you deny the existence of God unless it is a creature which can be discovered and examined by science, in which case, by the way, that creature would, by definition, not be God. No, you are a person of faith, and your faith, your god, as it were, is science. Man does not stand along, nor is man the measure of all things. God is.

Blessings, and may you, like many other former atheists and agnostics, find your way to faith in our Triune God.

Irl
 
The answer can be found in the Summa Theologica.

Bottom line, there is no such thing as infinite past time.

Also, see “Faith and Reason” by Father Spitzer (former president of Gonzaga) which can be found on EWTN’s list of TV programs.

Vivat Jesu!
 
This is where i would have to point out to you the big difference between believe and knowledge. If you want to make scientific claims about god, you must first prove there IS a god.
What arrogance scientism exudes! Scientism: the belief that truth can only be found through the application of science. But what is science? When we use the word ‘science’, it sounds sometimes as though we are referring to a monolithic entity speaking with a single voice of a Delphic oracle. Unfortunately, the word is used in a varied of ways. Sometimes the word is used in the context of the people who are engaged in producing it—the scientists. Sometimes it is used in the context of the methodology being used—the so-called scientific method. Sometimes in is used in the context of a specific kind of knowledge produced, a science. Often the word is used to mean the combination of all three connotations; for example, when we read that “Science has produced a wealth of knowledge”. However, it is in the third context that the word rightfully belongs; the word science should be used primarily to designate a specific kind of knowledge. But is science the only kind of knowledge that can be classified as truth? We know that science is based on inductive reasoning and absolute proof cannot be found through inductive reasoning. Furthermore, as Gödel showed, mathematical statements can be true even though they can’t be proven. So the connection between proving something and truth is questionable at best.

Karl Popper, a philosopher of science, suggested a way to classify hypotheses as science; he pointed out that the classical scientific method is based on inductive reasoning that went out of favor with the philosophers in the 20th century because one can never prove a hypothesis to be true based on repeated observation. Hypotheses can only be proven false. Consequently, Popper made falsification the criterion for classifying hypotheses as science. The theories of physics are such that a single observation that contradicts a predicted outcome is enough to invalidate the theory, and in a way, this is what we mean by testability. Popper also argues that although most science has been developed using inductive reasoning there is no single method for creating a scientific theory. Whereas the classical method puts most emphasis on prediction, Popper argues that the best theory is the one that offers the best explanation. A theory explains best when it is simple, general, and comprehensive. Since Popper prefers a theory that can be falsified, the steps in the Popperian method are: problem, hypothesis, prediction and falsification. However there is plenty of knowledge that is classified as science even though the pertinent hypothesis cannot be falsified. How, for example, could we falsify the theory of evolution? On the other hand, intelligent design, which is certainly not accepted as science, is easily falsified merely by creating life in a test tube.

In the narrow sense, a hypothesis becomes science only if it is testable. This is the definition that a materialist invokes whenever convenient. It implies that the hypothesis must make a prediction that can be verified. Prediction and verification give a hypothesis stature and earns it text book status. In spite of that, predictability and verification by experimentation or measurement are not the only way that hypotheses have been accepted as science. A hypothesis, without being either predictive or verifiable, can be accepted as science and become a theory through consensus of the scientific community on the basis that it is a plausible description verified by logical deduction of known facts. Historical disciplines such as evolution, archeology, and geology are primarily observational and most hypotheses can never be tested. Still, hypotheses that are presented in those disciplines are legitimately called science on the basis that they are the most plausible explanations of the facts. Thus, plausibility can confer scientific stature. Therefore, I contend that one does not have to prove the existence of God before a God hypothesis can be accepted as the most plausible explanation of the observed facts and, hence, be considered scientific. However if such an explanation is provided it will necessarily subsume science and will construct a plausible explanation at a deeper level at the ground of reality. It will be metascience.
Yppop
 
I didn’t feel like reading all of this stuff so someone might have said this before but whatever.

I think it helps to think of time as a number line. It goes on to infinite in all directions.

What messes most people up is the cause/effect structure everyone seems to have formed their perception of time around. On a number line, two doesn’t necessarily follow one, it only does in your perception of the number line if your experienceable field is progressing in that manor.

Like the number line, space time is not moving but we are. We are experiencing time progressively and this is added into our perceptual field progressively.

Time did not begin, it always was – with or without God – Time will not end, but the communal organism will continue to experience time progressively in the manor we have forever.

Whose to say the effect didn’t force the cause. One didn’t have to occur before the other, you just saw one of them first.

If you want to believe in God maybe it will help you by thinking of God as transcending this and sort of looking down at a time line with a marker labeled people moving to from left to right. I don’t know whatever helps.
To understand time as a number line is illogical, but I understand why it would seem logical to think of it that way. While I was thinking about time as a number line, it occurred to me why I originally thought that such an analogy made sense. You were thinking based on a point on that number line, which is entirely relative. Basically, what you did was you made yourself the beginning of time and made it go off infinitely into the past and infinitely into the future. Though you thought you were thinking of a time as a line, you were actually thinking of time as two rays going in opposite directions.

It is impossible for movement to actually occur on a line (in its full infinite length) because there is no beginning. Movement, I venture, requires a beginning. Without one there is no movement. Without movement there is no time. I tried, just now, to envision a man on a bike riding on a line for infinity, but I, but I can’t. From my own limited view I always conceive of him as beginning at some point. If you could conceive a whole line (infinity basically), you would understand that movement is not possible. We always conceive time as beginning at zero. It is impossible not to. If there was never a beginning, never a zero, there could be know change in time. It is impossible, in a certain sense, to start time at say, 4.5 s. It is impossible to conceive of actual time past the point of 0 s. In other words time must be greater than or equal to zero. Therefore it does have a starting point. I think I’m getting on to St. Thomas Aquinas’ idea that time must have a beginning because infinite regression is impossible.

Now that leaves two understandings of time left: a segment (the Christian understanding) or a ray.
 
You make for an interesting “observer”. 😉

Although to prove such would be far outside the scope of this kind of forum, the reality is that what we call the physical universe is actually no more (or less) than “that which changes”. Anything and everything that changes is within the realm of “physical universe”.

Thus, without explicidation, any cause of change necessarily cannot have change of any type within it. Without change, there can be no measure of it or what we call “time”.

The cause of the changing, God, cannot take time to decide to cause change fore to do so would be change already occurring. To say that time began at any moment in history and for whatever reason, is to say that God, the cause of change, began at that very same moment.

You can’t have it both ways. Either God AND the physical universe are eternal or neither is.
From what I am understanding, you are saying that God is unchangeable and that time is change. But then you go to say that both God and time are eternal. But I argue that such an understanding is contradictory. What is eternal is necessarily unchangeable because it has no beginning. If time is eternal, in the proper sense, then no change would occur. Change necessitates a past, present and future, but in eternity there can be no such thing. There can be what some call an “eternal present” where every thing just is or just happens.

In Christianity, God is understood to be this eternal present. You seem to understand this. I presume from his perspective he did not create time, but rather he creates it whereas in time we see it as already being done. This difference between our perspective and God’s own eternal perspective must be kept, otherwise grave error will occur. If time was eternal merely because God was eternal, then you would be implying two things: that time is a part of God (and therefore God himself) and that everything that is always was. Since time is not God himself, it cannot be eternal even though from all eternity God creates time. It still has a beginning, from our perspective, with the first movement. We already established that movement cannot be without beginning. To the second point, even though God creates you, you were created at a specific point in time. You had a beginning. If we were to understand your creation as you understood God and time, we would have to conclude that you were eternal. I know I probably not making any sense, but I thought I should try. I am also incapable of expressing the truth fully as God can.

I think that you are mixing two understandings of the word “eternal” up. You use it in its most proper sense (infinity) when referring to God and then use another, improper sense (an unending succession of events) for time. The improper sense, still, implies a beginning, even as you refer to it as eternal. More simply, God is like a line and time is either a ray or segment.
 
I resectfully disagree, Bob. Because God is an entity from beyond and above (supra) nature (hence supernatural) - from above and beyond the created universe, He is forever immune to examination and discovery by science and /or by applications of the scientific method. God can only be understood by faith, and that faith is likewise a gift from God.

By the same token, I can assure you that claims such as yours fall on deaf ears on forums such as this, the members of whom are people of faith.

As an aside, I would suggest that you are also a person of faith as you deny the existence of God unless it is a creature which can be discovered and examined by science, in which case, by the way, that creature would, by definition, not be God. No, you are a person of faith, and your faith, your god, as it were, is science. Man does not stand along, nor is man the measure of all things. God is.

Blessings, and may you, like many other former atheists and agnostics, find your way to faith in our Triune God.

Irl
You are incorrect on many fundamental levels.

Firstly, as i have already pointed out if god is immune form science then you CANNOT make SCIENTIFIC claims about god.

As for atheism being a faith, this is utterly absurd. It is the same as says not collecting stamps is a hobby. I do not believe there is no god, i reject your claim that a god exists because there is not a single shred of evidence to support it.

Your god many be immune to science, however many of the claims made in the bible are not, and none of them stand up to scientific scrutiny. Hence why the bible has now to be taken in “context”, i.e. it is not true.
 
What arrogance scientism exudes! Scientism: the belief that truth can only be found through the application of science. But what is science? When we use the word ‘science’, it sounds sometimes as though we are referring to a monolithic entity speaking with a single voice of a Delphic oracle. Unfortunately, the word is used in a varied of ways. Sometimes the word is used in the context of the people who are engaged in producing it—the scientists. Sometimes it is used in the context of the methodology being used—the so-called scientific method. Sometimes in is used in the context of a specific kind of knowledge produced, a science. Often the word is used to mean the combination of all three connotations; for example, when we read that “Science has produced a wealth of knowledge”. However, it is in the third context that the word rightfully belongs; the word science should be used primarily to designate a specific kind of knowledge. But is science the only kind of knowledge that can be classified as truth? We know that science is based on inductive reasoning and absolute proof cannot be found through inductive reasoning. Furthermore, as Gödel showed, mathematical statements can be true even though they can’t be proven. So the connection between proving something and truth is questionable at best.

Karl Popper, a philosopher of science, suggested a way to classify hypotheses as science; he pointed out that the classical scientific method is based on inductive reasoning that went out of favor with the philosophers in the 20th century because one can never prove a hypothesis to be true based on repeated observation. Hypotheses can only be proven false. Consequently, Popper made falsification the criterion for classifying hypotheses as science. The theories of physics are such that a single observation that contradicts a predicted outcome is enough to invalidate the theory, and in a way, this is what we mean by testability. Popper also argues that although most science has been developed using inductive reasoning there is no single method for creating a scientific theory. Whereas the classical method puts most emphasis on prediction, Popper argues that the best theory is the one that offers the best explanation. A theory explains best when it is simple, general, and comprehensive. Since Popper prefers a theory that can be falsified, the steps in the Popperian method are: problem, hypothesis, prediction and falsification. However there is plenty of knowledge that is classified as science even though the pertinent hypothesis cannot be falsified. How, for example, could we falsify the theory of evolution? On the other hand, intelligent design, which is certainly not accepted as science, is easily falsified merely by creating life in a test tube.

In the narrow sense, a hypothesis becomes science only if it is testable. This is the definition that a materialist invokes whenever convenient. It implies that the hypothesis must make a prediction that can be verified. Prediction and verification give a hypothesis stature and earns it text book status. In spite of that, predictability and verification by experimentation or measurement are not the only way that hypotheses have been accepted as science. A hypothesis, without being either predictive or verifiable, can be accepted as science and become a theory through consensus of the scientific community on the basis that it is a plausible description verified by logical deduction of known facts. Historical disciplines such as evolution, archeology, and geology are primarily observational and most hypotheses can never be tested. Still, hypotheses that are presented in those disciplines are legitimately called science on the basis that they are the most plausible explanations of the facts. Thus, plausibility can confer scientific stature. Therefore, I contend that one does not have to prove the existence of God before a God hypothesis can be accepted as the most plausible explanation of the observed facts and, hence, be considered scientific. However if such an explanation is provided it will necessarily subsume science and will construct a plausible explanation at a deeper level at the ground of reality. It will be metascience.
Yppop
“How, for example, could we falsify the theory of evolution?”

Bad example, for evolution could easily be falsified. Fossil bunnies in the pre-Cambrian. Or a species that violates the nested hierarchies.

“hypotheses that are presented in those disciplines are legitimately called science on the basis that they are the most plausible explanations of the facts.”

That would be a theory not a hypothesis, a hypothesis is an explanation for an observation. This of course is speaking very generally. However a hypothesis is NOT scientific if it is not testable. Also hypothesis do NOT become theories, they are ether supported or not, theories explain multiple (as in A LOT of) supported or “proven” hypothesis. Theories explain the facts.
 
“How, for example, could we falsify the theory of evolution?”

Bad example, for evolution could easily be falsified. Fossil bunnies in the pre-Cambrian. Or a species that violates the nested hierarchies.

“hypotheses that are presented in those disciplines are legitimately called science on the basis that they are the most plausible explanations of the facts.”

That would be a theory not a hypothesis, a hypothesis is an explanation for an observation. This of course is speaking very generally. However a hypothesis is NOT scientific if it is not testable. Also hypothesis do NOT become theories, they are ether supported or not, theories explain multiple (as in A LOT of) supported or “proven” hypothesis. Theories explain the facts.
Theories explain the facts ??? I think you’ve muddled it up here. Theory attempts to explain the most probable cause for a particular event. Provability does not enter the equation just as belief does not require proof. As for “Time” - it starts as soon as something exists /becomes, so when God began, time begun. If God is eternal so must time be.
 
Theories explain the facts ??? I think you’ve muddled it up here. Theory attempts to explain the most probable cause for a particular event. Provability does not enter the equation just as belief does not require proof. As for “Time” - it starts as soon as something exists /becomes, so when God began, time begun. If God is eternal so must time be.
It’s about time. 👍
 
Theories explain the facts ??? I think you’ve muddled it up here. Theory attempts to explain the most probable cause for a particular event. Provability does not enter the equation just as belief does not require proof. As for “Time” - it starts as soon as something exists /becomes, so when God began, time begun. If God is eternal so must time be.
No, a theory seeks to give the best possible explanation for a **SET **of empirical observations. You are correct that science, other than maths, does not prove anything. Hence why i wrote “proven” in my last post.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top