Does time have a beginning?

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How do you explain the forces according to the geocentric point of view. For example, the sun is supposedly moving about the earth, and then what about all the other planets, are they moving about the earth or are they moving about the sun. And wouldn’t it take a lot of energy for the whole universe to rotate about the earth in a 24 hour period?
Further, how do you explain the motion of the Foucault pendulum?
Have you ever heard of Newton’s law of gravity and laws of motion? And Kepler’s laws? Why do you discard them? And would you say that it is a heresy to claim that the earth revolves about the sun.
Regardless, I don’t think you are going to find many physicists who agree with your geocentric view on this.
Sid, Nobody on earth has ever ‘explained’ the forces we call universal gravity. Many have proposed theories like Newton, le Sage and Descartes, but that’s all they are just theories. My theory for a geocentric universe is electromagnetic forces generated gyroscope like from a rotating universe. The other planets have been proven to orbit the sun. It is the relative motion between the earth and sun that cannot be determined by any science other than theology (revelation). Kepler only discovered one Law, his Third, the other two ellipse ‘Laws’ are only a compromise of his. IIt is the Church in 1616 that said a fixed sun is a heresy because it is contrary to Scripture. The foucault pendulum only proves there is a force around the earth, like the Coriolis force. This force can be caused by a rotating universe or a rotating earth so it only proves the force exists. No few physicists agree but what does that prove, the Bible is interpreted by MAJORITY RULE or by the Church?
 
Sid, Nobody on earth has ever ‘explained’ the forces we call universal gravity. Many have proposed theories like Newton, le Sage and Descartes, but that’s all they are just theories. My theory for a geocentric universe is electromagnetic forces generated gyroscope like from a rotating universe. The other planets have been proven to orbit the sun. It is the relative motion between the earth and sun that cannot be determined by any science other than theology (revelation). Kepler only discovered one Law, his Third, the other two ellipse ‘Laws’ are only a compromise of his. IIt is the Church in 1616 that said a fixed sun is a heresy because it is contrary to Scripture. The foucault pendulum only proves there is a force around the earth, like the Coriolis force. This force can be caused by a rotating universe or a rotating earth so it only proves the force exists. No few physicists agree but what does that prove, the Bible is interpreted by MAJORITY RULE or by the Church?
So all the other planets revolve about the sun, but the earth does not? You say that the sun revolves about the earth? And the whole universe revolves about the earth?
 
So all the other planets revolve about the sun, but the earth does not? You say that the sun revolves about the earth? And the whole universe revolves about the earth?
Yes that is what cassini believes even although is goes against EVERY observation we have in this Field.

What cassini has never explained away is the fact that we have NEVER seen an example of a greater mass orbiting a lesser mass, never. We have BILLIONS of observations that show lighter masses orbit heaver masses. The idea that the sun orbits that earth is ludicrous. Satellites, Moons, Ring System, the Asteroid Belt, Comets, other Galaxies, other Planetary Systems, these ALL confirm that the earth orbits the sun!

http://www.stormchase.com/blog/media/2009/09/trmm-orbit.gif
http://www.onu.edu/a+s/physics/ASTROGALLERY/JupiterMoonsImg551.jpg

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http://www.utahskies.org/aotm/M31-gendler.jpg
http://www.spaceflight.esa.int/users/images/commonpic/orionsys_hst_big.jpg

NOT TO MENTION!!!>>>>>>>>>>>

WE KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THE EARTH ORBITS THE SUN…

 
Occam’s Razor
All things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the right one.
A good example it the Earth moves around the Sun, and so do the rest of the planets. While you can create a model that shows the sun moving around the Earth, that solution creates very odd orbits for the planets.
Another is that fossils are the remains of long dead animals that once lived on Earth. The other is that Satan hid them to confuse us.
 
The other is that Satan hid them to confuse us.
Sounds awfully simple to me! 😛

Which brings up a problem I have with good ol’ Occam. How do we figure out what simplicity is, without creating manifold problems of description? If I have to hypothesize ten million natural beings or one supernatural being, which is simpler? As usual, it comes down to which assumptions do I consider more reasonable? And, in the case of the planetary orbits, it also comes down to: how much tweaking did we have to do, to get the numbers right? The more ad hoc, the less likely.
 
As I keep saying, truth is something you declare as long as it doesn’t conflict with reality. Occam’s Razor is about which truth to declare, not which one is right. Declare the one that is easiest to use. But of course, that will depend on what you are using it for. Science has until recently had a different use for declared truths than religion. 😉
 
If time has no beginning, it is because God has no beginning. That’s all I’m willing to stick my neck out for.
God did not have a beginning, but then again God is not subject to the Second Law of thermodynamics since entropy will never increase in God. This is why God is above the second law of thermodynamics, and as well He is above time. Everything in the material universe began with the BB as available energy and then since according to the second law of thermodynamics, energy is changed from ordered to disordered, from usable to unusable, we see that over time, entropy is increasing and thus there is a direct relation between the increase of entropy and the forward movement of time. In an isolated system, heat always flows from the hotter to the colder body and never the reverse unless of course you have a partially closed system where energy is exchanged from a system in a higher level. We are kept alive by continuing to receive and process energy from outside of our bodily system. At death, this process stops and the disorder and decomposition of the body sets in. So the second law of thermodynamics and the concomitant increase in entropy is both a reminder of the flow of time and an immutable law that provides us with an incentive to see how we and all humans are ultimately joined together on our timely journey of life and beyond.
 
God did not have a beginning, but then again God is not subject to the Second Law of thermodynamics since entropy will never increase in God. This is why God is above the second law of thermodynamics, and as well He is above time. Everything in the material universe began with the BB as available energy and then since according to the second law of thermodynamics, energy is changed from ordered to disordered, from usable to unusable, we see that over time, entropy is increasing and thus there is a direct relation between the increase of entropy and the forward movement of time. In an isolated system, heat always flows from the hotter to the colder body and never the reverse unless of course you have a partially closed system where energy is exchanged from a system in a higher level. We are kept alive by continuing to receive and process energy from outside of our bodily system. At death, this process stops and the disorder and decomposition of the body sets in. So the second law of thermodynamics and the concomitant increase in entropy is both a reminder of the flow of time and an immutable law that provides us with an incentive to see how we and all humans are ultimately joined together on our timely journey of life and beyond.
And the Earth is flat. Any child can see that.
 
And the Earth is flat. Any child can see that.
This of course is a very serious error on your part, as is the error of geocentrism which has been espoused recently. Satellite photos show that the earth is a near spherical object. These photos are available even to children in the third grade.
Another proof of the near spherical nature of the earth is that planes travel around the earth.
I would advise anyone who is interested in furthering his knowledge in this area to take a junior high school course in geography.
 
This of course is a very serious error on your part, as is the error of geocentrism which has been espoused recently. Satellite photos show that the earth is a near spherical object. These photos are available even to children in the third grade.
Another proof of the near spherical nature of the earth is that planes travel around the earth.
I would advise anyone who is interested in furthering his knowledge in this area to take a junior high school course in geography.
You mean believe those same people who claim that God is a myth?

:rolleyes:
 
I don’t think i explained correctly or maybe i am misunderstanding you but i don’t think that time had a beginning. It didn’t start with me it’s just that I am like a single ticker that is moving along time as it stays still. I began somewhere along time, which had been around before me. I was born; that was were I began. And beginning from birth I moved along the timeline. I mean its not that hard to imagine a man picking up a bike and riding down a street which is infinitely long and then getting off. Time is the street itself; it doesn’t move, and it goes on to infinity both in front of and behind the rider.
Plato34:

You are very, very close to helping define time with your geometrical line explanation. I’ll get back to that in another post, if you don’t mind. However, everyone in this thread has to finally agree that there is no such thing as an actual infinity, except for God. For the material world, infinity can only exist as a potential, for as long as we can continue to add, or subtract, one (or more) real numbers from a supposed infinity, we have not reached infinity yet! For finite creatures and things, there is only potential infinity. Someone show me the number “infinity”. Now, add one more real number to it. Then another, then another, etc.

Since time is correlative with the mobile finite world, and mobile finite universe, it cannot go backward to infinity, or forward to infinity, EXCEPT in our imaginations. Set Theory is nothing more than mathematical abstraction. It is important that we understand mathematical abstraction in the proper framework. The number 2 does not exist except in the framework of immateriality. In the framework of the material there can be two of something, such as eggs or rashers of bacon. But, no one can eat a number “2.”

If we can get past the confusion over the “existence” of “infinity,” we can begin to develop a workable definition of “time.” If I may, I will offer one right up front: Time is the measure or number of motion, according to the prior and the posterior. Time is not equivalent to motion. Time is not equivalent to God. Time is not relative, although it seems so to our senses. If I could place two synchronized watches, one on earth and another on some distant galaxy, and I could speak to another person in that distant galaxy, I would soon discover that our watches would tell us the same time. Relativity comes into play only because it takes time to move sound waves, or light photons, across huge distances. And, further, since time “measures” the motion of mobile things, at huge distances, it appears as though two mobile things are moving slower, in reference to each other, as we view them from great distances.

Space and time own different “perfections” inside the mind versus outside the mind. I hesitate to say that either is not real. However, space has a more perfect (real) existence outside of the mind than does time. Thus, I think time does have (a real) existence outside of the mind, but has a less perfect foundation there. For example, number has a foundation in reality. But, if you think about it, there are countless things in the real world that are not created by our minds. Our minds know them only by counting them.

I am restricted by time right now, but, I will be back.

jd
 
Since time is correlative with the mobile finite world, and mobile finite universe, it cannot go backward to infinity, or forward to infinity, EXCEPT in our imaginations.
ALL of history is but imagination. The fact that you cannot imagine an infinite history has nothing to do with the reality of it. The fact is that you cannot logically derive anything else but an infinite history, God or no God.

There are a great many things that you cannot image. Your imagination does not limit what is real or isn’t. And in fact, your imagination is largely what keeps you from seeing what is real or isn’t. That is why we have Logic.
 
ALL of history is but imagination. The fact that you cannot imagine an infinite history has nothing to do with the reality of it. The fact is that you cannot logically derive anything else but an infinite history, God or no God.

There are a great many things that you cannot image. Your imagination does not limit what is real or isn’t. And in fact, your imagination is largely what keeps you from seeing what is real or isn’t. That is why we have Logic.
Sorry, James, I have no desire to argue against absurdity. Write something that possesses something intelligent, and I will respond to it. I hope you understand.

jd
 
Of course a line wouldn’t perfectly model time, they are two different things, but I think the parallels are legitimate especially in the context of Individuals and our perception of time.
Plato:

To get back to your point that time is analogical to a line. It might be useful to say that, “Time is to a Line as the Now is to a Point.” Except, unlike the line, time exists only successively. It never exists with all of its parts simultaneous with one another. A line, on the other hand, can exist with all of its parts in simultaneity. Thus, there is a difference between time and anything merely geometrical.

As you correctly point out, the now (or instant) is like a point on a line. Typically, one side of the line represents the past, while the other represents the future. Of course, we are still quite vague as to what exactly the now is, but, it seems to be that which separates past from future. And, we certainly have reason to ask whether the now is truly a part of time.

There is a big difference between the point on a line and the now. Unlike the point on a line, the now is always flowing. If we consider the point on a line undergoing imaginary motion, it would be regarded, from one position to the next, as the same point that was being moved. But, to the extent that the point is in some sort of motion, the point would always be different. As St. Thomas says, " It would be the same subject with constantly changing relations." (Summa Theologica, Book I, q. 10, a. 4, reply 2)

So too, with the now. As the now flows, it does not go out of existence in the past only to come back into existence in the future. Time is like the line generated by the moving point of our imagination, and the now is like the point itself. Time, then, is generated by the now flowing. If we consider this, we come to understand that the now has a continuous existence, as it flows through time, but, as always flowing, this existence must always be different.

If we can understand the now as always flowing, as described above, we will have no problem understanding why it can unite the past with the future, in a continuous flow, yet still leave them differentiated. The now is like a moving point, and time is like a line. If we will think of the relationship between the now and time in the same way that we understand a mobile being and motion, we can easily see that a mobile being, as it moves, leaves something of itself that is constant. For, even though the forward part of a mobile being is continuously moving forward, there is always a posterior part that remains behind, as it were, and is thus constant. On the other hand, the forward part of the now, like that of a mobile being, does not remain behind.

The now, then, has a twofold character. The now is the end (term) of the past and the beginning (principle) of the future. We best grasp this as we ourselves take a step or two forward. Our noses move into the future while the backs of our heads have yet to leave the past.

Any intelligent disagreement here so far?

jd
 
This sounds like the classical question if there are an infinite values between 0 and 1, 1 must be infinitely far away or larger than 0. But it isn’t because each value between 0 and 1 takes up an infinitely small space or distance relative to the total space or distance between 0 and 1.
 
So all the other planets revolve about the sun, but the earth does not? You say that the sun revolves about the earth? And the whole universe revolves about the earth?
Yes Sid, you have it in one. That is the system that complies with TRUE TIME as described by me earlier.

But note Sid, no sooner do you start asking intelligent questions but up comes a Copernican to the rescue of the Heliocentric theory. He shows you pictures of stars and you are supposed to see heliocentrism in them. He gives you diagrams etc, that mean nothing to objective philosophers because whereas he sees an absolute proven truth, others see different:

Long ago Alexander von Humboldt admitted:
Code:
"I have already known for a long time that we have no proof for the system of Copernicus. . . but I do not dare to be the first one to attack it."
Bertrand Russell (1872-1970), correctly asserts:
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Whether the earth rotates once a day from West to East as Copernicus taught, or the heavens revolve once a day from East to West, as his predecessors believed, the observable phenomena will be exactly the same. That shows a defect in Newtonian dynamics, since an empirical science ought not to contain a metaphysical assumption which can never be proved or disproved by observation.
Indeed when I googled in Bertrand Russell geocentrism metaphysical assumption to find the quote I was looking for the first site I came to is worth reading if you want to know more.

Alas, Given this thread is about TIME, I am at a loss to see the subject of geocentric TIME ignored on the basis that the majority believe in a metaphysical assumption that supposedly proves geocentrism itself is impossible. I thought this was a philosophy forum.
 
All mental events require time else you can not progress from one thought to another.This also applies to the concept of God.
 
All mental events require time else you can not progress from one thought to another.This also applies to the concept of God.
Welcome, fcs25:

Your first sentence is quite correct. Lie in bed in total darkness, so that your senses perceive no motion. Yet, our ideas pass through our minds in succession, taking time as they do. This is one of the ways in which sensing beings are able to know that time is flowing.

I’m not sure how this “applies to the concept of God,” though. Can you give more detail?

jd
 
Sorry, James, I have no desire to argue against absurdity. Write something that possesses something intelligent, and I will respond to it. I hope you understand.
jd
Oh, I understand. But I suspect you wouldn’t like what it is that I understand.
 
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