Does traditionalism lead to divisions?

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Glad to hear about the abbey. It gave me a new outlook.
I’ve been to many Benedictine abbeys around the world where tradition and the OF Mass go hand-in-hand, even ad orientem in at Monte Cassino in Italy.
I’m going to suggest that the appropriate ‘ism’, that is the root cause of division is MODERNISM.
The sum of all heresies.
The problem is that this word is often thrown around thoughtlessly as epithet when one doesn’t like something modern, but completely licit according to Church law. It’s a word that sows division in its own right, and often is little more than an ad hominem insult hurled at people who dare, for instance, prefer music that isn’t Gregorian chant. Modernism does not equal “modern”. A church for instance, built in a modern architectural style, can have a very traditional layout and thus not be a product of “modernism” in the heretical sense.

I wish in fact that it were banned from discourse on the topic of tradition. If we’re going to really get down to what is the root of all division in the Church, it is original sin.
 
… If we’re going to really get down to what is the root of all division in the Church, it is original sin.
👍

The Church has a nice discussion of this in the section on marriage, which is an image of Christ’s unity with his Church.
Marriage under the regime of sin
1606 Every man experiences evil around him and within himself. This experience makes itself felt in the relationships between man and woman. Their union has always been threatened by discord, a spirit of domination, infidelity, jealousy, and conflicts that can escalate into hatred and separation. This disorder can manifest itself more or less acutely, and can be more or less overcome according to the circumstances of cultures, eras, and individuals, but it does seem to have a universal character.
1607 According to faith the disorder we notice so painfully does not stem from the nature of man and woman, nor from the nature of their relations, but from sin. As a break with God, the first sin had for its first consequence the rupture of the original communion between man and woman. Their relations were distorted by mutual recriminations;96 their mutual attraction, the Creator’s own gift, changed into a relationship of domination and lust;97 and the beautiful vocation of man and woman to be fruitful, multiply, and subdue the earth was burdened by the pain of childbirth and the toil of work.98
1608 Nevertheless, the order of creation persists, though seriously disturbed. To heal the wounds of sin, man and woman need the help of the grace that God in his infinite mercy never refuses them.99 Without his help man and woman cannot achieve the union of their lives for which God created them “in the beginning.”
 
This Labeling was exactly the sort of thing I was talking about in post #8.
I agree we need to dispense with putting labels before Catholic. Instead of American Catholic I am a Catholic American. But labels are effective in an historical context and unfortunately in identifying problems within the Church. Such as liberal politicians who identify as Catholic while promoting abortion and homosexual marriage. It does no good to make believe it does not exist.
 
I’ve been to many Benedictine abbeys around the world where tradition and the OF Mass go hand-in-hand, even ad orientem in at Monte Cassino in Italy.

The problem is that this word is often thrown around thoughtlessly as epithet when one doesn’t like something modern, but completely licit according to Church law. It’s a word that sows division in its own right, and often is little more than an ad hominem insult hurled at people who dare, for instance, prefer music that isn’t Gregorian chant. Modernism does not equal “modern”. A church for instance, built in a modern architectural style, can have a very traditional layout and thus not be a product of “modernism” in the heretical sense.

I wish in fact that it were banned from discourse on the topic of tradition. If we’re going to really get down to what is the root of all division in the Church, it is original sin.
I would agree with you that if there are any splits, the seeds were sown long before the OF.
 
It’s helpful and necessary to use descriptive terms when discussing issues.
I think problems arise when we use descriptive terms as a fundamental identity for ourselves and others, to distinguish and separate ourselves from others. “I’m Catholic, but I’m separated from those Catholics”, as if there are two Gods.

Fundamental identity:

What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14God said to Moses, “I am who I am.
“Who do you say I am?”
Peter answered, “You are the Christ.”
No fragmented identity in God. We are made in his image, and invited to be part of the “Holos”, unified with the whole. That is who we are.
 
The catechism talks about identity here:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p1.htm
II. GOD REVEALS HIS NAME
203 God revealed himself to his people Israel by making his name known to them. A name expresses a person’s essence and identity and the meaning of this person’s life. God has a name; he is not an anonymous force. To disclose one’s name is to make oneself known to others; in a way it is to hand oneself over by becoming accessible, capable of being known more intimately and addressed personally.
204 God revealed himself progressively and under different names to his people, but the revelation that proved to be the fundamental one for both the Old and the New Covenants was the revelation of the divine name to Moses in the theophany of the burning bush, on the threshold of the Exodus and of the covenant on Sinai.
The living God
205 God calls Moses from the midst of a bush that burns without being consumed: "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."9 God is the God of the fathers, the One who had called and guided the patriarchs in their wanderings. He is the faithful and compassionate God who remembers them and his promises; he comes to free their descendants from slavery. He is the God who, from beyond space and time, can do this and wills to do it, the God who will put his almighty power to work for this plan.
“I Am who I Am”
Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you’, and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you’. . . this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations."10
206 In revealing his mysterious name, YHWH (“I AM HE WHO IS”, “I AM WHO AM” or “I AM WHO I AM”), God says who he is and by what name he is to be called. This divine name is mysterious just as God is mystery. It is at once a name revealed and something like the refusal of a name, and hence it better expresses God as what he is - infinitely above everything that we can understand or say: he is the “hidden God”, his name is ineffable, and he is the God who makes himself close to men.11
207 By revealing his name God at the same time reveals his faithfulness which is from everlasting to everlasting, valid for the past (“I am the God of your father”), as for the future (“I will be with you”).12 God, who reveals his name as “I AM”, reveals himself as the God who is always there, present to his people in order to save them.
208 Faced with God’s fascinating and mysterious presence, man discovers his own insignificance. Before the burning bush, Moses takes off his sandals and veils his face in the presence of God’s holiness.13 Before the glory of the thrice-holy God, Isaiah cries out: "Woe is me! I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips."14 Before the divine signs wrought by Jesus, Peter exclaims: "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord."15 But because God is holy, he can forgive the man who realizes that he is a sinner before him: "I will not execute my fierce anger. . . for I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst."16 The apostle John says likewise: "We shall. . . reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."17

IV. THE IMPLICATIONS OF FAITH IN ONE GOD
222 Believing in God, the only One, and loving him with all our being has enormous consequences for our whole life

225 **It means knowing the unity **and true dignity of all men: everyone is made in the image and likeness of God.50
 
Hmmm. I frequently hear expressions like “unity through diversity” and have to ask if this is even physically possible.
 
Hmmm. I frequently hear expressions like “unity through diversity” and have to ask if this is even physically possible.
Hmmm. I would accept that in Christ Jesus, yes it is possible.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s1c2a2.htm
ARTICLE 2
LITURGICAL DIVERSITY AND THE UNITY OF THE MYSTERY
Liturgical traditions and the catholicity of the Church
1200 From the first community of Jerusalem until the parousia, it is the same Paschal mystery that the Churches of God, faithful to the apostolic faith, celebrate in every place. The mystery celebrated in the liturgy is one, but the forms of its celebration **are diverse. **
1201 The mystery of Christ is so unfathomably rich that it cannot be exhausted by its expression in any single liturgical tradition. The history of the blossoming and development of these rites witnesses to a remarkable complementarity. When the Churches lived their respective liturgical traditions in the communion of the faith and the sacraments of the faith, they enriched one another and grew in fidelity to Tradition and to the common mission of the whole Church.66
1202 The diverse liturgical traditions have arisen by very reason of the Church’s mission. Churches of the same geographical and cultural area came to celebrate the mystery of Christ through particular expressions characterized by the culture: in the tradition of the "deposit of faith,"67 in liturgical symbolism, in the organization of fraternal communion, in the theological understanding of the mysteries, and in various forms of holiness. Through the liturgical life of a local church, Christ, the light and salvation of all peoples, is made manifest to the particular people and culture to which that Church is sent and in which she is rooted. The Church is catholic, capable of integrating into her unity, while purifying them, all the authentic riches of cultures.68
 
I’ve been to many Benedictine abbeys around the world where tradition and the OF Mass go hand-in-hand, even ad orientem in at Monte Cassino in Italy.

The problem is that this word is often thrown around thoughtlessly as epithet when one doesn’t like something modern, but completely licit according to Church law. It’s a word that sows division in its own right, and often is little more than an ad hominem insult hurled at people who dare, for instance, prefer music that isn’t Gregorian chant. Modernism does not equal “modern”. A church for instance, built in a modern architectural style, can have a very traditional layout and thus not be a product of “modernism” in the heretical sense.

I wish in fact that it were banned from discourse on the topic of tradition. If we’re going to really get down to what is the root of all division in the Church, it is original sin.
Never said modern=modernism… I understand modernism in the St. Pope Pius X sense, and that is what I’m referring to. It still exists in the church you know.
But, you are correct that at the core it is original sin that is the root cause.
 
The same could be said of conservatism, traditionalism, secularism, individualism, communism, etc…these detract from Catholicism, which is the only ism that Christ calls us to.
I said liberalism is probably the most cause thereby implying that there were others. 🤷
I’m going to suggest that the appropriate ‘ism’, that is the root cause of division is MODERNISM.
The s.um of all heresies.
I attribute all these isms to satan who wants to divide the church. a house that is divided against itself shall fall.
I’ve been to many Benedictine abbeys around the world where tradition and the OF Mass go hand-in-hand, even ad orientem in at Monte Cassino in Italy.

The problem is that this word is often thrown around thoughtlessly as epithet when one doesn’t like something modern, but completely licit according to Church law. It’s a word that sows division in its own right, and often is little more than an ad hominem insult hurled at people who dare, for instance, prefer music that isn’t Gregorian chant. Modernism does not equal “modern”. A church for instance, built in a modern architectural style, can have a very traditional layout and thus not be a product of “modernism” in the heretical sense.

I wish in fact that it were banned from discourse on the topic of tradition. If we’re going to really get down to what is the root of all division in the Church, it is original sin.
I see
 
Hello everyone. I have not been posting much, because I get very tired very quickly. Sometimes, when I post, some people want to engage in a long drawn out discussion. I don’t mind responding to one or two posts, but not to several dozen as I did once upon a time. Having said, I saw the title of this thread and was struck by it. It doesn’t exactly say what the OP is trying to ask. I clicked the triangle, suggesting a slight modification so that it’s clearer. Let’s see what happens.

In any case, I’d like to share a session that we had in our community this past Monday on traditionalism. We’re a very young community. We have three houses; that’s it for now. Though we’re looking for a fourth one in the Miami area, if anyone knows of one for a reasonable rent. Be that as it may, on Mondays, the three houses come together for some fraternity, prayer and on-going formation.

We were discussing that traditionalism has been hijacked by a small group of people and narrowed down to mean the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, Latin, Gregorian Chant, incense, fiddle back chasubles, scholas, mantillas, and almost all things liturgical prior to the Pauline missal. In this mindset there are the catechisms that preceded Vatican II and the writings of the Magisterium.

Then we compared it to the mind of great Traditionalists like St. Francis of Assisi, St. Clare, St. Bonaventure, Bl. John Duns Scotus, St. Colette, St. Maximilian Kolbe, St. Pius X, St. Margaret of Cortona, St. John Vianney, St. John XXIII and Ven. Pius XII, all very traditional Franciscans. For those who didn’t know it, many secular priests, bishops and popes have been secular Franciscans, Carmelites and Dominicans.

If I look closely at the lives of these men and women and at the life of my brothers in our community, the Franciscans of the Renewal, the Franciscans of the Eternal Word, the Franciscans of the Holy Eucharist, the Franciscans of the Primitive Observance and several other communities that are part of the Franciscan reform, I don’t see division. Allow me to speak only about Franciscans, because I don’t know the internal mechanics of other communities and schools of religious thought that are undergoing reform. The Franciscan school I know very well.

Division comes from many sources, but none of them is tradition. I can prove it. If I look at our younger Franciscan communities and compare them to our older ones, such as the Friars Minor (OFM, OFM Cap, and OFM Conv), the Secular Franciscans (OFS) and the Poor Clares (PCs). I see small communities trying to recover the original way of life of the friars in the 13th century and the first constitutions of the order, which were written in the 16th century. However, the larger and older communities have been very helpful and they have sent vocations our way. On one or the other occasion, the superiors have lent us formators.

Division comes from zealotry. Zealotry is a malignancy that affects people who want to go back and pretend that the present is not here, as well as people who want to go forward and pretend that the past did not happen. Both groups share a common evil. We call it spiritual pride. Neither group of zealots wants to admit that there is good and bad in the past and present and that there is no line of demarcation. The only line of demarcation is the one that has been draw up by the sin of division.

Again, if both groups were to agree that there is much to learn in the writings of St. John XXIII, Ven. Paul VI, St. John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis, as well as the writings of St. Pius X, Leo XIII, Bl. Pius IX, St. Pius V, then they wouldn’t be zealots would they? They would be students of the development of Christian doctrine, much like Bl. John Henry Newman described in his work. They would be looking at entire schools of thought, not pieces of this and slices of that. They would be paying attention to how the popes interpret and understand their predecessors, not how we want them to be understood or interpreted. They would be docile to the voice of the Holy Spirit as he speaks through the current pope, just as he did through the 265 popes who preceded the current Bishop of Rome.

We must be very careful that our love for something does not displace the perfection of charity or inflict an injustice on others. I can see people who pull in either direction too ferociously doing such harm to the Body of Christ. The problem is not tradition. The problem is caused by those who equate tradition only with what is familiar and those who equate tradition with what they consider obsolete. The problem is not one of tradition, but one of opposition.

I wish that I could invite all of you to sit in on one of our community meetings on Mondays and listen to a young brother explain what veiling means to some people while he also explains why the Church saw fit to take it out of Canon Law, but never banned it. You may also enjoy listening to a brother speak about the place of honor that Gregorian Chant has in the Roman liturgy, while explaining what it is contrary to tradition to include it in every Franciscan liturgy, especially community liturgy. You may also enjoy another brother who walks us through the CCC and connects all the dots in the CCC with those catechisms that came before it and other Christian writings. We even have one brother who is Chaldean Catholic and can explain the Anaphora of Addai and Mari and no one jumps up and down or huffs and puffs. The problem is neither tradition, nor difference. The problem is zealotry. Zealotry is a form of bigotry that can be found among the most conservative and the most liberal. Hatred and anger are like flies and roaches. Try to find a place where they have never been. 🙂

Please forgive any errors in my typing. My eye-hand coordination is very poor now.
 
Having said, I saw the title of this thread and was struck by it. It doesn’t exactly say what the OP is trying to ask. I clicked the triangle, suggesting a slight modification so that it’s clearer. Let’s see what happens.

i see. i had come to edit,but the button was not seen.
 
If some say that traditional Catholicism leads to divisions then it’s just as easy–probably easier–to say that “everything must be done as it was in 1972” Catholicism also leads to divisions.
 
If some say that traditional Catholicism leads to divisions then it’s just as easy–probably easier–to say that “everything must be done as it was in 1972” Catholicism also leads to divisions.
Fair point. Maybe even more so because in 1972 there were several hundred vernaculars.
 
All this confusion! I believe the divisions do not come so much from documents, or styles or language. It is much deeper than that and those who truly love the Church and her Liturgy are sometimes unable to define the subtleties that cause consternation. Since some expression of these “things” causing us unease is needed, these “things” are conveniently put into one of the opposing camps and we have unwittingly labeled ourselves as divisive to others. I believe it is primarily about authentic worship and the yearning God has placed in our hearts to adore Him. Many today find this need is frustrated in the contemporary church, yet no one seems able to adequately and appropriately express that which is truly spiritual and intangible.
 
The abbey I’m associated with does a marvellous job of wedding the modern and the traditional: Gregorian chant for the propers and ordinary but vernacular plainchant for the rest in an OF Mass; modern architecture but traditional layout.
ohh…I’m just plain jealous!
 
At that level, then I would say it would be a miracle. 😉
I believe in those miracles.
Is it a miracle that two radically diverse bodies, male and female, can participate in the highest degree of unity? Each body is unique, male and female, yet through mutual giving, the two diverse bodies come together, and form new life through the unity they participate in. We are diverse, yet we complement one another.

So maybe it’s not just an accidental miracle that diverse people can be unified, maybe it’s the basic Christian call.
 
I think sometimes people get so concerned about staying true to Catholic values and truth, that they forget people are involved. They feel great about being up in arms about defending traditional catholic values they forget about the people.

But sometimes traditionalist are trying to move the Church in a direction that is not called for by the Church you must be careful about that.

But a few things are important
  1. Two things are central to the Catholic liturgy, the Worship of God and the sanctification of the people. Sometimes I feel people focus on the former and forget the latter, or at-least to give it what it deserves
  2. upholding Catholic Truth and Catholic Traditions. Long standings traditions do help us sanctify the people and worship God, so they should be thrown out because people are hostile to it.
  3. when we change we must be patient, while it is very important to have good liturgy and good traditional values, going into parish and completely changing everything will cause large division in parishes. As long as a parish isn’t doing something that is moving people away from God, we must be patient with change to more traditional values.
Could be a few more but these are the most important things IMO. In order. So 1 is more important than 3, 2 more than 3.
Teachings, Teachers, Priest, Rabbi’s are all names from the Bible , which is tradition, which where given to Jesus Christ. These traditions are the teachings of Jesus, and if we allow the wants of man to supersede the Teachings of Jesus, we will fail. We are called to follow the Way of Jesus Christ, not the wants of man. Jesus is Tradition.

It is not the established tradition that is moving the teachings of the Church, it is man in his want for both sin and salvation. Can’t have both.
 
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