Does traditionalism lead to divisions?

[Jack007]

Teachings, Teachers, Priest, Rabbi’s are all names from the Bible , which is tradition, which where given to Jesus Christ. These traditions are the teachings of Jesus, and if we allow the wants of man to supersede the Teachings of Jesus, we will fail. We are called to follow the Way of Jesus Christ, not the wants of man. Jesus is Tradition.

It is not the established tradition that is moving the teachings of the Church, it is man in his want for both sin and salvation. Can’t have both.

i am the op. did you read the link i gave?

 

[ProVobis]

We are diverse, yet we complement one another.

Nice line, but can’t the same be said of companies where we work? I don’t think I’ve ever worked for a place where an us vs them atmosphere wasn’t present. Was more of a hindrance than anything else.

Sure it’s nice to feel spiritually united with Japanese or Mideast Catholics on the other side of the planet but to be under the same physical roof occupying the same space at the same time? That’s a different story.

Frankly, I don’t see where this discussion is going. The real world just isn’t stable with divisions. But if one feels better sugarcoating it with some complementary aspect, then I’m not going to stop him or her. In fact, I may do it myself.

 

[clem456]

Nice line, but can’t the same be said of companies where we work? I don’t think I’ve ever worked for a place where an us vs them atmosphere wasn’t present. Was more of a hindrance than anything else.

Sure it’s nice to feel spiritually united with Japanese or Mideast Catholics on the other side of the planet but to be under the same physical roof occupying the same space at the same time? That’s a different story.

Frankly, I don’t see where this discussion is going. The real world just isn’t stable with divisions. But if one feels better sugarcoating it with some complementary aspect, then I’m not going to stop him or her. In fact, I may do it myself.

Not sure where your feelings come into this discussion, or mine.
?
Working for unity amid diversity is a difficult thing, not a sugarcoated line designed to make us feel better.
Really I have no idea where you’re coming from here.

So people don’t get along. That’s a fact.
Does that disqualify diverse people from being united? Or seeking unity?

What is the Christian call then? To wallow in our differences? Doesn’t Christ pray that we may all be one? Isn’t that the point of his life?

 

[ProVobis]

Working for unity amid diversity is a difficult thing, not a sugarcoated line designed to make us feel better.

That’s my point.

But at least they’re trying. For example,

In April 1974 Pope Paul VI sent to every bishop in the world a booklet of some of the simplest selections of Gregorian Chant, much of it drawn from the Graduale Romanum. This booklet, called Jubilate Deo, was intended as a “minimum repertoire of Gregorian chant”. It is, in other words, an official Latin “core repertoire” for the Roman Rite. It was prepared, the Pope said, in order “to make it easier for Christians to achieve unity and spiritual harmony with their brothers and with the living tradition of the past. Hence it is that those who are trying to improve the quality of congregational singing cannot refuse Gregorian chant the place which is due to it” (Voluntati Obsequens). -

also

“Since faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is fitting that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, set to the simpler melodies” (GIRM §41)

See more at: adoremus.org/JubilateDeo.html#sthash.FkQPC8My.dpuf

 

[eddie_too]

to me, the unity comes from individuals conforming their hearts and minds to Jesus.

the diversity is a result of each of us conforming our hearts and minds to Jesus imperfectly.

the better we conform our hearts and minds to Jesus the less division we experience.

 

[clem456]

to me, the unity comes from individuals conforming their hearts and minds to Jesus.

the diversity is a result of each of us conforming our hearts and minds to Jesus imperfectly.

the better we conform our hearts and minds to Jesus the less division we experience.

I think it’s easy to conflate diversity with perhaps… division and dissension? Diversity has become such a dirty word, but it is not in the eyes of the Church. Diverse people can be unified.
The Church says this about diversity:

“The sacred mystery of the Church’s unity” (UR 2)

813 The Church is one because of her source**(note, not because we all have the same culture)**: "the highest exemplar and source of this mystery is the unity, in the Trinity of Persons, of one God, the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit."259 The Church is one because of her founder: for "the Word made flesh, the prince of peace, reconciled all men to God by the cross, . . . restoring the unity of all in one people and one body."260 The Church is one because of her “soul”: "It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the entire Church, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful and joins them together so intimately in Christ that he is the principle of the Church’s unity."261 Unity is of the essence of the Church:
…
814 From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God’s gifts and the diversity of those who receive them. Within the unity of the People of God, a multiplicity of peoples and cultures is gathered together. Among the Church’s members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. "Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions."263 The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church’s unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. And so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."264

So then, diversity among people is not a matter of a defect akin to original sin, but reflects God’s gifts in unique peoples.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

to me, the unity comes from individuals conforming their hearts and minds to Jesus.

the diversity is a result of each of us conforming our hearts and minds to Jesus imperfectly.

the better we conform our hearts and minds to Jesus the less division we experience.

I agree with Clem.

We’re all different and that’s part of the magnificence of how God created us.

If you like praying the rosary and I prefer lectio divina, that’s diversity, but there’s nothing wrong with either choice. They’re both good and simply reflect our different personalities and preferences.

There’s a difference between diversity and division. The division may arise if one of us tries to impose our preference on the other or fails to recognize the goodness of the other choice.

 

[ProVobis]

to me, the unity comes from individuals conforming their hearts and minds to Jesus.

the diversity is a result of each of us conforming our hearts and minds to Jesus imperfectly.

the better we conform our hearts and minds to Jesus the less division we experience.

This would work well if no words were spoken or spoken quietly.

Just sayin…

 

[ProVobis]

to me, the unity comes from individuals conforming their hearts and minds to Jesus.

the diversity is a result of each of us conforming our hearts and minds to Jesus imperfectly.

the better we conform our hearts and minds to Jesus the less division we experience.

Sursum corda should work for everyone perfectly.

 

[ProVobis]

There’s a difference between diversity and division. The division may arise if one of us tries to impose our preference on the other or fails to recognize the goodness of the other choice.

There is no division within parishes which have English Mass at 10am and Spanish Mass at noon, for example, and never the twain shall meet?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

There is no division within parishes which have English Mass at 10am and Spanish Mass at noon, for example, and never the twain shall meet?

I don’t think I understand your point. Would you prefer that all the Masses at one parish be in English and all the Masses at another be in Spanish rather than mixing them in a single parish?

 

[johnnyc176]

to me, the unity comes from individuals conforming their hearts and minds to Jesus

I would say conforming their hearts and minds to Jesus and His Church,

 

[ready]

Traditional Catholicism is not the problem that causes divisions, etc. – Modernism is the problem, for the true Church has always been traditional, not modernist. A traditional Catholic remains faithful to the Church’s traditions and will not compromise with the Modernism of the present world. I am leaving this thread, as I have nothing else I want to contribute to it. God bless you.

 

[ProVobis]

Would you prefer that all the Masses at one parish be in English and all the Masses at another be in Spanish rather than mixing them in a single parish?

It’s a pre-existing division either way, no? It seems at one time everyone could worship in one place at the same time. Aside from Papal Masses and special events, this isn’t done any more. So why is tc being blamed for division?

Sorry to be a source of confusion but as I think we are talking different types of division here, I am bowing out of the discussion.

 

[Megan7]

That’s my point.

But at least they’re trying. For example,

In April 1974 Pope Paul VI sent to every bishop in the world a booklet of some of the simplest selections of Gregorian Chant, much of it drawn from the Graduale Romanum. This booklet, called Jubilate Deo, was intended as a “minimum repertoire of Gregorian chant”. It is, in other words, an official Latin “core repertoire” for the Roman Rite. It was prepared, the Pope said, in order “to make it easier for Christians to achieve unity and spiritual harmony with their brothers and with the living tradition of the past. Hence it is that those who are trying to improve the quality of congregational singing cannot refuse Gregorian chant the place which is due to it” (Voluntati Obsequens). -

also

Quote:
“Since faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is fitting that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, set to the simpler melodies” (GIRM §41)

See more at: adoremus.org/JubilateDeo.html#sthash.FkQPC8My.dpuf

Thanks for the link & quotes. God bless.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

It’s a pre-existing division either way, no? It seems at one time everyone could worship in one place at the same time. Aside from Papal Masses and special events, this isn’t done any more. So why is tc being blamed for division?

Sorry to be a source of confusion but as I think we are talking different types of division here, I am bowing out of the discussion.

I’m not so sure about everyone worshiping in one place at the same time. In my mother’s day – well, she grew up in a tiny town that had two Catholic churches. There was the Polish church and the Italian church because the two groups couldn’t possibly go to Mass in the same place even though the Mass itself was in Latin. She went to a Catholic school where English wasn’t even allowed. It was the Polish church and the Polish school and they didn’t want to waste time teaching the children English. It was the same thing in the Italian church down the street.

The difference now is that there aren’t enough priests to have separate churches for each different language group, so one church has an English Mass, and Spanish Mass, a Vietnamese Mass, or whatever other group might exist in a large enough group to support a Mass.

I don’t think having Mass in Latin or having Mass in the vernacular necessarily unites or necessarily separates. It all depends on the attitudes of the people involved.

 

[esieffe]

If there wasn’t purists, liberals, sinners, mediators, those who made a difference, those, who slide by, those that try, and those who didn’t, then we would be the “Stepford” Church, not the Universal Church.

 

[Jack007]

If there wasn’t purists, liberals, sinners, mediators, those who made a difference, those, who slide by, those that try, and those who didn’t, then we would be the “Stepford” Church, not the Universal Church.

icam

 

[Iotaunum]

Traditional Catholicism cannot by its very nature lead to divisions, rather deviations from it are the cause of division. I believe the formulation of new theologies and philosophies are more causes of division.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Bump