"Does your Master want you to betray Him?"

[Peter_Plato]

A diabolically difficult question the only answer I can think of - if I had been Judas - is “Yes”…

I don’t think it would have been “Yes,” any more than Adam or Eve would have thought God “wanted” them to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Really, the question isn’t so much what Judas thought Jesus wanted or what Adam and Eve thought God wanted, but what Jesus/God did “want” – if that were a matter as simple as saying God “wants” in the same sense that human beings “want.”

Yes, I understand that Jesus was fully human, but that does not imply that the rest of us really are, does it? Nor does it imply that we understand what it means to be fully human since we barely obtain minimally human on a good day – well, speaking for myself.

I mean, perhaps we “less than human humans” don’t understand what it means to “want” in the fully human sense of the word that would have obtained in Jesus, despite that we think we do understand what it means to “want” in the truly full sense of the word.

:twocents:

 

[tonyrey]

If Judas is in Hell, it isn’t because of suicide, and I personally wouldn’t even think it was for betraying Jesus, so much as it is because he despaired of God’s Mercy. Even after all he did, Jesus would have and wanted to forgive Him, same as everyone else, but unlike Peter, Judas didn’t think he could be forgiven. Suicide can certainly be a result of that, but I doubt it would be a mortal sin here, whereas eschewing God’s Mercy is. Just my thoughts. Subscribing for interest.

Peter hadn’t betrayed Jesus by revealing where He was. Judas had far greater reason for giving way to despair. Even now to most people it seems an unforgivable crime and they believe he is in hell. Repenting doesn’t lessen the horror of what he did. Jesus made it quite clear He trusted him when He said "Judas, go quickly and do what you have to do.”
I don’t think anyone could have convinced Judas he could ever atone for what he had done because it is true! If we put ourselves in his position what reason can we give for forgiving him? The only one I can think is that he didn’t realise Jesus was going to condemn Jesus to death but that seems a weak excuse. He had done nothing prove he was really sorry.

How can we tell whether a person is eschewing God’s Mercy?

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t think it would have been “Yes,” any more than Adam or Eve would have thought God “wanted” them to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Really, the question isn’t so much what Judas thought Jesus wanted or what Adam and Eve thought God wanted, but what Jesus/God did “want” – if that were a matter as simple as saying God “wants” in the same sense that human beings “want.”

Yes, I understand that Jesus was fully human, but that does not imply that the rest of us really are, does it? Nor does it imply that we understand what it means to be fully human since we barely obtain minimally human on a good day – well, speaking for myself.

I mean, perhaps we “less than human humans” don’t understand what it means to “want” in the fully human sense of the word that would have obtained in Jesus, despite that we think we do understand what it means to “want” in the truly full sense of the word.

:twocents:

I agree with you, Peter, but if Judas was hesitating Satan could have whispered “Of course He does. He knows what you intend to do and isn’t trying to stop you. In fact He has told you to do it quickly.”!

 

[Kurisu35712]

Peter hadn’t betrayed Jesus by revealing where He was. Judas had far greater reason for giving way to despair. Even now to most people it seems an unforgivable crime and they believe he is in hell. Repenting doesn’t lessen the horror of what he did. Jesus made it quite clear He trusted him when He said "Judas, go quickly and do what you have to do.”
I don’t think anyone could have convinced Judas he could ever atone for what he had done because it is true! If we put ourselves in his position what reason can we give for forgiving him? The only one I can think is that he didn’t realise Jesus was going to condemn Jesus to death but that seems a weak excuse. He had done nothing prove he was really sorry.

How can we tell whether a person is eschewing God’s Mercy?

Repenting wouldn’t lessen the horror of it, no, but God, in His mercy, still would have forgiven him and he could have been a Saint like the rest of the apostles. And if you want to get technical, none of us can do anything to actually atone for our sins. We are forgiven through Jesus’s sacrifice and by no merits of our own. And that sacrifice is sufficient for all of humanity’s sin and then some in the eyes of God. Judas could have sought forgiveness. He could have repented. He could have trusted in God’s Mercy and Jesus’s Love even in spite of his own horrific actions. But I have always considered his sin to be despair of God’s Mercy; a lack of trust in God’s ability to forgive him essentially. From Judas’s perspective, he would have to think that what he’d done was so terrible, it was beyond God’s power to forgive. I’m just speculating of course.

 

[fisherman_carl]

That’s an important point, Carl, but it doesn’t explain why Jesus made Judas aware He knew what he was going to do. He could have told the other apostles about the prophecy after Judas had left the room. He seems to have wanted Judas to know the truth but what difference did it make? Could be it that Jesus wanted His apostle to kill himself when he realised how much his Master had trusted Him?

Well, this would be my guess why he told Judas that. Jesus and his disciples were celebrating a Passover meal. Jesus knew that Passover was coming and that he would turn everything upside down by becoming the Passover sacrifice himself. So yeah, on one sense he is telling Judas to get the ball rolling on the whole thing. He has a schedule to meet if he wants to be the Passover Sacrifice. But, on the other hand he is saddened by Judas betraying him.

So yeah, on the one hand he is going into this with both eyes wide open. He had been predicting his death for some time. And everything that he predicted must come true. So that after the fact when the disciples reflect back on everything they will realize everything he said happened as he said it would. So that they will be able to interpret what happened as part of God’s plan rather than an abysmal failure.

So that means on the one hand he is using Judas to accomplish this. He knows what was in Judas’ heart and he was able to take advantage of that. Thus God allows evil so that a greater good is possible that was not otherwise possible. You could ask the same question as to why God allowed the devil to tempt Adam and Eve in the first place. It’s not that God wills evil, but he is smart enough, if that’s the word, to be able to take an evil person or deed and to turn it around and make something great out of it.

Its difficult for us to see what God’s end game is. But it is up to us if we want to trust him that it will be all somehow worth it in the end. So that is my 2c worth after thinking about it. God bless.

P.s. What is our answer to Jesus asking, “Do you trust me?”

He doesn’t give us all the information. In some ways we are on a need to know basis. We are after all in a spiritual war with casualties on both sides. But, can we trust him because of who he is, even if we don’t have all the answers?

 

[tonyrey]

Well, this would be my guess why he told Judas that. Jesus and his disciples were celebrating a Passover meal. Jesus knew that Passover was coming and that he would turn everything upside down by becoming the Passover sacrifice himself. So yeah, on one sense he is telling Judas to get the ball rolling on the whole thing. He has a schedule to meet if he wants to be the Passover Sacrifice. But, on the other hand he is saddened by Judas betraying him.

So yeah, on the one hand he is going into this with both eyes wide open. He had been predicting his death for some time. And everything that he predicted must come true. So that after the fact when the disciples reflect back on everything they will realize everything he said happened as he said it would. So that they will be able to interpret what happened as part of God’s plan rather than an abysmal failure.

So that means on the one hand he is using Judas to accomplish this. He knows what was in Judas’ heart and he was able to take advantage of that. Thus God allows evil so that a greater good is possible that was not otherwise possible. You could ask the same question as to why God allowed the devil to tempt Adam and Eve in the first place. It’s not that God wills evil, but he is smart enough, if that’s the word, to be able to take an evil person or deed and to turn it around and make something great out of it.

Its difficult for us to see what God’s end game is. But it is up to us if we want to trust him that it will be all somehow worth it in the end. So that is my 2c worth after thinking about it. God bless.

P.s. What is our answer to Jesus asking, “Do you trust me?”

He doesn’t give us all the information. In some ways we are on a need to know basis. We are after all in a spiritual war with casualties on both sides. But, can we trust him because of who he is, even if we don’t have all the answers?

An excellent analysis, Carl! The fact that Jesus chose to die for us proves we can trust Him. He told us “By their fruits we shall know them”. In spite of all the bloodshed most people now believe in the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity and try to abide by them. He has revolutionised our concept of God and ourselves.

 

[tonyrey]

Repenting wouldn’t lessen the horror of it, no, but God, in His mercy, still would have forgiven him and he could have been a Saint like the rest of the apostles. And if you want to get technical, none of us can do anything to actually atone for our sins. We are forgiven through Jesus’s sacrifice and by no merits of our own. And that sacrifice is sufficient for all of humanity’s sin and then some in the eyes of God. Judas could have sought forgiveness. He could have repented. He could have trusted in God’s Mercy and Jesus’s Love even in spite of his own horrific actions. But I have always considered his sin to be despair of God’s Mercy; a lack of trust in God’s ability to forgive him essentially. From Judas’s perspective, he would have to think that what he’d done was so terrible, it was beyond God’s power to forgive. I’m just speculating of course.

I don’t think it even occurred to Judas that God could forgive him. After all he had committed the greatest crime in history and to his way of thinking he had no excuse whatsoever - and most people agree with him! He was a Jew accustomed to the idea of God as a Judge rather than a merciful Father. It took time for the full significance of Christ’s revolutionary teaching to be grasped by the first Christians - as we can see by their disagreement over the status of the Gentiles. Judas was convinced his treachery was unforgivable and acted accordingly. It wasn’t a sin of pride or rejection of God’s love but a sin against himself as an utterly worthless creature who didn’t deserve to exist, let alone go to hell. He just wanted to disappear forever…

 

[Peter_Plato]

I don’t think it even occurred to Judas that God could forgive him. After all he had committed the greatest crime in history and to his way of thinking he had no excuse whatsoever - and most people agree with him! He was a Jew accustomed to the idea of God as a Judge rather than a merciful Father. It took time for the full significance of Christ’s revolutionary teaching to be grasped by the first Christians - as we can see by their disagreement over the status of the Gentiles. Judas was convinced his treachery was unforgivable and acted accordingly. It wasn’t a sin of pride or rejection of God’s love but a sin against himself as an utterly worthless creature who didn’t deserve to exist, let alone go to hell. He just wanted to disappear forever…

Yes, but Judas had also spent three years in the company of God become man, listening to God’s Word directly from the mouth of God, so he wasn’t unaware of the idea of merciful Father. He had witnessed the forgiveness and mercy of God time and time again directly.

 

[tonyrey]

Yes, but Judas had also spent three years in the company of God become man, listening to God’s Word directly from the mouth of God, so he wasn’t unaware of the idea of merciful Father. He had witnessed the forgiveness and mercy of God time and time again directly.

That is true, Peter, but I don’t believe Judas was in a fit state to think rationally. I have pointed out that the agony of guilt, remorse and despair that made Judas kill himself is unimaginable. The words “I have betrayed innocent blood” explain why Jesus said "It would have been better for that man if he had not been born”. Unlike Herod and Caiaphas Judas repented and proved his repentance was sincere. He had betrayed the Master he had followed faithfully for three years and then committed suicide. He committed two acts of folly which didn’t reflect his true character. He had indeed witnessed how his Master was full of compassion for everyone - except those who exploited the poor and regarded everyone else as sinners. He was dedicated to Jesus and must have been out of his mind to yield to temptation. Judas was literally one of the élite but the higher we climb the further we can fall. St Peter had been tempted and he warned us that “your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour”. Judas too was a victim of infernal malice because he was closer to the Son of God than anyone else except Mary, Joseph and the other apostles - and therefore a prime target for the Evil One…

His lack of hesitation in returning the money demonstrates how little importance he attached to it. I don’t believe even the most precious jewels in the world would have made the slightest difference. Jesus had had such a powerful effect on him throughout the three years they had been together he knew nothing in the world can replace our love for others or their love for us. It is impossible to exaggerate Our Lord’s charisma and influence on those who met Him, least of all one of His apostles. Judas must have been heart-broken and distraught when he realised the full significance of what he had done. He must have felt utterly lost, despised by everyone - particularly the other apostles - and doomed to go to hell. No wonder he hanged himself. For him life no longer had any value, purpose or meaning in stark contrast to the life he had led with his Master. He had gone from one extreme to the other, having lost everything he treasured most: friendship, companionship, loyality and a sense of mission in the face of hostility from the High Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes. Above all he had lived with the greatest man who has ever lived on this earth and even in his demented state of mind he knew he deserved to suffer, be punished and be put to death but he also knew no one would kill him. In a sense he was a martyr but for the wrong reason.

Perhaps God loves Judas more than those who have had an easy life and never had to endure temptation, far more than the self-righteous who cold-bloodedly exploit the poor and let them die of disease, malnutrition or starvation. In fact I feel sure God loves Judas and forgives him because he was so tortured by guilt and despair he must have paid for his folly and even in heaven will never be able to forget what he has done… I’m not so sure about Herod and Caiaphas because in their case it was not folly but malice that motivated them and there is no evidence that they repented. Yet no one except God knows for certain who is in hell and it is presumptuous to pass judgment on anyone, least of all a man who played a part in our redemption.

The words of Othello keep coming into my mind: “O Iago, the pity of it, Iago”!" - with Iago representing the Evil One…

 

[tonyrey]

That is true, Peter, but I don’t believe Judas was in a fit state to think rationally. I have pointed out that the agony of guilt, remorse and despair that made Judas kill himself is unimaginable. The words “I have betrayed innocent blood” explain why Jesus said "It would have been better for that man if he had not been born”. Unlike Herod and Caiaphas Judas repented and proved his repentance was sincere. He had betrayed the Master he had followed faithfully for three years and then committed suicide. He committed two acts of folly which didn’t reflect his true character. He had indeed witnessed how his Master was full of compassion for everyone - except those who exploited the poor and regarded everyone else as sinners. He was dedicated to Jesus and must have been out of his mind to yield to temptation. Judas was literally one of the élite but the higher we climb the further we can fall. St Peter had been tempted and he warned us that “your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour”. Judas too was a victim of infernal malice because he was closer to the Son of God than anyone else except Mary, Joseph and the other apostles - and therefore a prime target for the Evil One…

His lack of hesitation in returning the money demonstrates how little importance he attached to it. I don’t believe even the most precious jewels in the world would have made the slightest difference. Jesus had had such a powerful effect on him throughout the three years they had been together he knew nothing in the world can replace our love for others or their love for us. It is impossible to exaggerate Our Lord’s charisma and influence on those who met Him, least of all one of His apostles. Judas must have been heart-broken and distraught when he realised the full significance of what he had done. He must have felt utterly lost, despised by everyone - particularly the other apostles - and doomed to go to hell. No wonder he hanged himself. For him life no longer had any value, purpose or meaning in stark contrast to the life he had led with his Master. He had gone from one extreme to the other, having lost everything he treasured most: friendship, companionship, loyality and a sense of mission in the face of hostility from the High Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes. Above all he had lived with the greatest man who has ever lived on this earth and even in his demented state of mind he knew he deserved to suffer, be punished and be put to death but he also knew no one would kill him. In a sense he was a martyr but for the wrong reason.

Perhaps God loves Judas more than those who have had an easy life and never had to endure temptation, far more than the self-righteous who cold-bloodedly exploit the poor and let them die of disease, malnutrition or starvation. In fact I feel sure God loves Judas and forgives him because he was so tortured by guilt and despair he must have paid for his folly and even in heaven will never be able to forget what he has done… I’m not so sure about Herod and Caiaphas because in their case it was not folly but malice that motivated them and there is no evidence that they repented. Yet no one except God knows for certain who is in hell and it is presumptuous to pass judgment on anyone, least of all a man who played a part in our redemption.

The words of Othello keep coming into my mind: “O Iago, the pity of it, Iago”!" - with Iago representing the Evil One…

If we deny Judas was possessed St John made a serious mistake on which he insisted with his repetition of the words “Satan entered into him”. Yet his Gospel reveals deeper theological insight than the others and it solves the problem of the traitor’s swift change of heart when he heard his Master had been condemned to death. If it is true - and there is no reason to believe it is false - Jesus could have exorcised Judas like so many others during His ministry. His decision not to do so is understandable because then neither the prophecy nor His mission would be fulfilled. As in the massacre of the innocents both Jesus and Judas were victims of the divine plan to deliver us from evil. Like the infants they both had to die for our salvation. This interpretation would revolutionise our attitude to the man who has been despised and maligned for two thousand years. Judas was weak but he was not malicious. He had free will but he was tempted and deceived by Satan at the most critical moments of his life. Even if he thought of the consequences - which is not certain - he was probably led to believe Jesus would save Himself and fulfil the Jewish belief that the Messiah would lead his people to victory over the Romans. What is certain is that he didn’t intend to kill himself, nor was he aware he would “betray innocent blood”. He unwittingly died for us and should be regarded as a martyr instead of a Devil’s disciple…

 

[ericc]

But Jesus still lost Judas to the devil. John17:12. If he didn’t he wouldn’t have said “none of them is lost but the son of perdition”.

Or I understood this verse wrongly.

 

[tonyrey]

But Jesus still lost Judas to the devil. John17:12. If he didn’t he wouldn’t have said “none of them is lost but the son of perdition”.

Or I understood this verse wrongly.

Judas was lost as far as being an apostle was concerned but that doesn’t imply that he was lost for all eternity. He had succumbed to temptation but had repented and chose to die like his Master. What more could he have done?

 

[ericc]

Judas was lost as far as being an apostle was concerned but that doesn’t imply that he was lost for all eternity. He had succumbed to temptation but had repented and chose to die like his Master. What more could he have done?

I think it is a stretch to assume Jesus said Judas was lost temporarily. He has mentioned several times one of them is a devil. He has never hinted that this devil will be saved eventually. Not even once.

Perhaps you may want to reconsider your insistence that Judas was some how saved? You may empathized with Judas and looking for “loopholes” but from what little evidence is available, it really is unlikely.

Doesn’t what you propose smells a bit of the Judas Gospel? Warning bells…

 

[tonyrey]

Judas was lost as far as being an apostle was concerned but that doesn’t imply that he was lost for all eternity

St John’s precise words were “Satan entered into Judas” which were repeated to ensure there was no possibility of error.

He has never hinted that this devil will be saved eventually. Not even once.

It wasn’t necessary. Why would Jesus say Judas was not going to Hell when He made it clear to the Apostles Satan entered into him? Going to Hell is not the result of being possessed but a clear-sighted rejection of God for all eternity.

Perhaps you may want to reconsider your insistence that Judas was damned! You may empathized with Judas and looking for “loopholes” but from what little evidence is available, it really is unlikely. Doesn’t what you propose smells a bit of the Judas Gospel? Warning bells…

Argumentum ad hominem.

Judas succumbed to temptation, repented and killed himself because he was overcome by horror at what he had done.“I have betrayed innocent blood” are words that poignantly sum up his state of mind. What more could he have done? What would we have done if we had committed such a foul act of treachery against a leader we had served for three years and knew had done nothing to deserve such unimaginable torture and death? Would you have thought you could be forgiven for such a hideous crime?

 

[Peter_Plato]

Judas succumbed to temptation, repented and killed himself because he was overcome by horror at what he had done.“I have betrayed innocent blood” are words that poignantly sum up his state of mind. What more could he have done? What would we have done if we had committed such a foul act of treachery against a leader we had served for three years and knew had done nothing to deserve such unimaginable torture and death? Would you have thought you could be forgiven for such a hideous crime?

This is a very important question.

Doesn’t this indicate a lack of trust or faith in God and in his forgiveness on the part of Judas?

How is losing faith In God’s mercy different or worse than, for example, Peter losing faith in God’s capacity to survive a trial and execution, which is, at base, why Peter “betrayed” Jesus.

Peter came through the ordeal by renewing his faith in God, not by trusting his own ability to be faithful.

On the other hand, Judas seems to have lost his faith in God’s mercy and goodness by putting himself above God and taking his fate into his own hands by executing judgement upon himself, rather than having faith in God to redeem him.

The other question to be asked is, “At what point does a crime become too ‘heinous?’” Is Mary of Magdala’s continual engagement in prostitution too heinous? What about an abortionist who has aborted thousands of babies? A serial murderer carrying out dozens of sadistic killings? Where are the limits of God’s mercy in these cases? Do you think we can draw hard and fast judgements from our human perspective? Wouldn’t that be the lesson that we ought to take away from Judas’ actions and death?

Allowing you that Judas’ own realization of the heinousness of his crime, i.e., that his act was in fact a crime against God himself (the one from whom mercy would be sought,) and that in itself would have clouded his ability to reasonably judge or accept the mercy from the very God he betrayed – which I think does mitigate his culpability, I would think the whole question of Judas’ final fate is not one that we can really say anything about precisely because we don’t have access to those internal psychological/spiritual states within Judas which would be required to render anything like a proper judgement – even if we were sufficiently just, merciful or good to do so.

I would submit that we ought not judge, in the sense of condemning Judas, for precisely the same reason we should not judge/condemn anyone because it requires taking on a presumptuous perspective/capacity we were warned not to assume with regards to condemning others. This general stance should also apply in some, though not all respects, to ourselves because we do have some privileged insight into our own mental/psychological states that we do not have access to with respect to others. On the other hand, that privileged access means we can be easily biased, both antagonistically and protagonistically, unfairly for and against, our own ultimate good as we wreak judgement upon ourselves.

Ultimately, it means we ought to trust in God’s mercy and goodness above all.

 

[e_c]

For what it’s worth, Papias, I think, says that Judas survived his attempted suicide (which solves an apparent contradiction) and continued to live the most depraved kind of life. There was yet another chance of turning, and it wasn’t taken. He says he was so fat that he was crushed against the wall by a cart going through a street (which would explain why the rope or tree snapped), and this was the cause of his death.

 

[tonyrey]

Judas succumbed to temptation, repented and killed himself because he was overcome by horror at what he had done."I have betrayed innocent blood"

It does indeed.

How is losing faith In God’s mercy different or worse than, for example, Peter losing faith in God’s capacity to survive a trial and execution, which is, at base, why Peter “betrayed” Jesus.

Peter came through the ordeal by renewing his faith in God, not by trusting his own ability to be faithful.

On the other hand, Judas seems to have lost his faith in God’s mercy and goodness by putting himself above God and taking his fate into his own hands by executing judgement upon himself, rather than having faith in God to redeem him.

I don’t believe Judas put himself above God. He didn’t even execute judgement upon himself because I don’t believe he was in a fit state to act rationally. He was obviously dominated by a feeling of immense guilt which drove him to kill himself as soon as he heard his Master had been condemned. He didn’t even wait for Jesus to be crucified because he was being driven out of his mind by the knowledge that he alone was responsible for hideous treachery. I’m sure if I had been Judas I would have felt the same. I’m also sure he hadn’t foreseen the consequences because the news that Jesus had been condemned seems to have come as a shock to him.

The other question to be asked is, “At what point does a crime become too ‘heinous?’” Is Mary of Magdala’s continual engagement in prostitution too heinous? What about an abortionist who has aborted thousands of babies? A serial murderer carrying out dozens of sadistic killings? Where are the limits of God’s mercy in these cases? Do you think we can draw hard and fast judgements from our human perspective? Wouldn’t that be the lesson that we ought to take away from Judas’ actions and death?

I entirely agree with you. We 're not in a position to judge anyone even ourselves.

Allowing you that Judas’ own realization of the heinousness of his crime, i.e., that his act was in fact a crime against God himself (the one from whom mercy would be sought,) and that in itself would have clouded his ability to reasonably judge or accept the mercy from the very God he betrayed – which I think does mitigate his culpability, I would think the whole question of Judas’ final fate is not one that we can really say anything about precisely because we don’t have access to those internal psychological/spiritual states within Judas which would be required to render anything like a proper judgement – even if we were sufficiently just, merciful or good to do so.

I would submit that we ought not judge, in the sense of condemning Judas, for precisely the same reason we should not judge/condemn anyone because it requires taking on a presumptuous perspective/capacity we were warned not to assume with regards to condemning others. This general stance should also apply in some, though not all respects, to ourselves because we do have some privileged insight into our own mental/psychological states that we do not have access to with respect to others. On the other hand, that privileged access means we can be easily biased, both antagonistically and protagonistically, unfairly for and against, our own ultimate good as we wreak judgement upon ourselves.

That view corresponds exactly to the warning given to us by Jesus:

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Matthew 7:1-2

A very sobering thought but also consoling because we can be tempted to be too harsh on ourselves. That may well be one of Satan’s wiles: to make us give up hope as Judas did…

 

[tonyrey]

It does indeed.

I don’t believe Judas put himself above God. He didn’t even execute judgement upon himself because I don’t believe he was in a fit state to act rationally. He was obviously dominated by a feeling of immense guilt which drove him to kill himself as soon as he heard his Master had been condemned. He didn’t even wait for Jesus to be crucified because he was being driven out of his mind by the knowledge that he alone was responsible for hideous treachery. I’m sure if I had been Judas I would have felt the same. I’m also sure he hadn’t foreseen the consequences because the news that Jesus had been condemned seems to have come as a shock to him.

I entirely agree with you. We 're not in a position to judge anyone even ourselves.

That view corresponds exactly to the warning given to us by Jesus:

Matthew 7:1-2

A very sobering thought but also consoling because we can be tempted to be too harsh on ourselves. That may well be one of Satan’s wiles: to make us give up hope as Judas did…

It has occurred to me that when we’re tempted to despair that in itself is a form of purification because it makes us suffer and it is then we should pray and try to do something to atone for the unnecessary suffering we have caused. The problem with Judas is that there seems to be nothing he could have done… and given his disturbed state of mind nothing else he would have done…

 

[tonyrey]

For what it’s worth, Papias, I think, says that Judas survived his attempted suicide (which solves an apparent contradiction) and continued to live the most depraved kind of life. There was yet another chance of turning, and it wasn’t taken. He says he was so fat that he was crushed against the wall by a cart going through a street (which would explain why the rope or tree snapped), and this was the cause of his death.

I think this description speaks for itself:

Death of Judas

According to a scholium attributed to Apollinaris of Laodicea, Papias also related a tale on the grotesque fate of Judas Iscariot:[44] Judas did not die by hanging[45] but lived on, having been cut down before he choked to death. Indeed, the Acts of the Apostles makes this clear: Falling headlong he burst open in the middle and his intestines spilled out.[46] Papias, the disciple of John, recounts this more clearly in the fourth book of the Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord, as follows:
Judas was a terrible, walking example of ungodliness in this world, his flesh so bloated that he was not able to pass through a place where a wagon passes easily, not even his bloated head by itself. For his eyelids, they say, were so swollen that he could not see the light at all, and his eyes could not be seen, even by a doctor using an optical instrument, so far had they sunk below the outer surface. His genitals appeared more loathsome and larger than anyone else’s, and when he relieved himself there passed through it pus and worms from every part of his body, much to his shame. After much agony and punishment, they say, he finally died in his own place, and because of the stench the area is deserted and uninhabitable even now; in fact, to this day one cannot pass that place without holding one’s nose, so great was the discharge from his body, and so far did it spread over the ground.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papias_of_Hierapolis

A “tale” is an apt description! :ehh:

 

[fisherman_carl]

It does indeed.

I don’t believe Judas put himself above God. He didn’t even execute judgement upon himself because I don’t believe he was in a fit state to act rationally. He was obviously dominated by a feeling of immense guilt which drove him to kill himself as soon as he heard his Master had been condemned. He didn’t even wait for Jesus to be crucified because he was being driven out of his mind by the knowledge that he alone was responsible for hideous treachery. I’m sure if I had been Judas I would have felt the same. I’m also sure he hadn’t foreseen the consequences because the news that Jesus had been condemned seems to have come as a shock to him.

I entirely agree with you. We 're not in a position to judge anyone even ourselves.

That view corresponds exactly to the warning given to us by Jesus:

Matthew 7:1-2

A very sobering thought but also consoling because we can be tempted to be too harsh on ourselves. That may well be one of Satan’s wiles: to make us give up hope as Judas did…

One thing that is hard to be merciful about is when we feel like others are judging or condemning us. Even Jesus was the hardest on the Pharisees who were always judging others. It could be that we have less mercy for others when we have less mercy for ourselves. And vice versa. When we can not see our neighbour with all his struggles, his hopes and his flaws, it is all too easy to dissmiss him. Out of sight, out of mind. But,when we get to know the real him,with all his hopes and his flaws, and empathize with him, it is much harder to condemn him or dismiss him.

I remember listening to Mother Angelica on the radio talking about sorrow versus despair and she talked about Judas vs Peter. Peter was sorrowfull for denying Jesus, but he did not give into despair and hopelessness like Judas did.

See youtu.be/2jF6jhbomN0