"Does your Master want you to betray Him?"

[tonyrey]

One thing that is hard to be merciful about is when we feel like others are judging or condemning us. Even Jesus was the hardest on the Pharisees who were always judging others. It could be that we have less mercy for others when we have less mercy for ourselves. And vice versa. When we can not see our neighbour with all his struggles, his hopes and his flaws, it is all too easy to dissmiss him. Out of sight, out of mind. But,when we get to know the real him,with all his hopes and his flaws, and empathize with him, it is much harder to condemn him or dismiss him.

I remember listening to Mother Angelica on the radio talking about sorrow versus despair and she talked about Judas vs Peter. Peter was sorrowfull for denying Jesus, but he did not give into despair and hopelessness like Judas did.

See youtu.be/2jF6jhbomN0

There is a vast difference between denial and betrayal. Judas had far more reason to despair than Peter who simply told lies whereas Judas enabled the High Priest’s men to arrest Jesus by leading them to Him and betraying Him with a kiss.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I think the story of Judas almost reads like a Greek tragedy. Judas was actually fated to betray Christ, so even though he made the choice to betray Jesus, it was already foretold that this would happen. It had to happen.

 

[tonyrey]

I think the story of Judas almost reads like a Greek tragedy. Judas was actually fated to betray Christ, so even though he made the choice to betray Jesus, it was already foretold that this would happen. It had to happen.

I agree, Christine, but he didn’t lack free will. He made the choice when he was possessed yet people don’t become possessed unless they are heading in that direction. At some stage he could have resisted entertaining evil thoughts instead of yielding to them. We are not puppets manipulated by events beyond our control but persons created in the image of God and capable of **self-**determination. That is the fatal flaw in the so-called dilemma of determinism and indeterminism!

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I agree, Christine, but he didn’t lack free will. He made the choice when he was possessed yet people don’t become possessed unless they are heading in that direction. At some stage he could have resisted entertaining evil thoughts instead of yielding to them. We are not puppets manipulated by events beyond our control but persons created in the image of God and capable of **self-**determination. That is the fatal flaw in the so-called dilemma of determinism and indeterminism!

Yes, but if Judas didn’t betray Jesus, Jesus wouldn’t have died on the cross and redeemed the world. It was foreordained that Judas would betray Jesus. Although Judas could have chosen to not betray Jesus, he did not. His fatal flaw was his love of money over God. After he betrayed him he totally regretted it. It’s a sad story, but it had to happen. He had free will, but he was also fated to his actions.

 

[tonyrey]

Yes, but if Judas didn’t betray Jesus, Jesus wouldn’t have died on the cross and redeemed the world. It was foreordained that Judas would betray Jesus. Although Judas could have chosen to not betray Jesus, he did not. His fatal flaw was his love of money over God. After he betrayed him he totally regretted it. It’s a sad story, but it had to happen. He had free will, but he was also fated to his actions.

That is a stumbling block for many people who believe being destined excludes free will. They overlook the possibility that we are destined to have free will!

(I prefer “destined” because “fated” seems impersonal and even unfortunate - as if a person has no choice…

 

[tonyrey]

Returning to the OP there are four possibilities:

1. “Yes” - which seems the most likely after Jesus had told the apostles He was going to be betrayed. Why else would his Master have said ""Judas, go quickly and do what you have to do.” It is also consistent with the explanation that Judas was playing into Satan’s hands.
2. “No” - which seems very unlikely for the same reason although he might have wondered momentarily why his Master wanted to be betrayed. Even if he did he was used to obeying Jesus implicitly without asking questions and it was hardly the time or place to have a discussion! I suppose he could have asked “Why, Master?” but that seems to take us into the realm of fantasy. He had probably heard Jesus rebuke Peter with the words “Get behind me, Satan!” That would have been enough to deter him from hesitating to do what he was told.
3. “I don’t know” - which seems possible in view of Judas’s agitated state of mind and perhaps unwillingness to commit himself. It is very unlikely but possible that he sensed Satan was trying to trap him. Even if he did he had committed himself and it would have been very difficult to go back and admit he had made a terrible mistake. It is more likely that at this stage he was incapable of thinking lucidly. He had fallen into the trap and there was no way of escape then or after he came to his senses. Death was the only solution and Satan had triumphed - for the time being…

4, “Yes and no” - which seems too sophisticated for a man on his way to betray his Master and unlikely after being told "Judas, go quickly and do what you have to do.” It is only likely if Judas thought Jesus was going to be crucified but that would be inconsistent with his devastation on hearing that Jesus was condemned. So why his abrupt change of attitude when he said “I have betrayed innocent blood”? One thing is certain: he certainly hadn’t anticipated hanging himself!

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Returning to the OP there are four possibilities:

1. “Yes” - which seems the most likely after Jesus had told the apostles He was going to be betrayed. Why else would his Master have said ""Judas, go quickly and do what you have to do.” It is also consistent with the explanation that Judas was playing into Satan’s hands.
2. “No” - which seems very unlikely for the same reason although he might have wondered momentarily why his Master wanted to be betrayed. Even if he did he was used to obeying Jesus implicitly without asking questions and it was hardly the time or place to have a discussion! I suppose he could have asked “Why, Master?” but that seems to take us into the realm of fantasy. He had probably heard Jesus rebuke Peter with the words “Get behind me, Satan!” That would have been enough to deter him from hesitating to do what he was told.
3. “I don’t know” - which seems possible in view of Judas’s agitated state of mind and perhaps unwillingness to commit himself. It is very unlikely but possible that he sensed Satan was trying to trap him. Even if he did he had committed himself and it would have been very difficult to go back and admit he had made a terrible mistake. It is more likely that at this stage he was incapable of thinking lucidly. He had fallen into the trap and there was no way of escape then or after he came to his senses. Death was the only solution and Satan had triumphed - for the time being…

4, “Yes and no” - which seems too sophisticated for a man on his way to betray his Master and unlikely after being told "Judas, go quickly and do what you have to do.” It is only likely if Judas thought Jesus was going to be crucified but that would be inconsistent with his devastation on hearing that Jesus was condemned. So why his abrupt change of attitude when he said “I have betrayed innocent blood”? One thing is certain: he certainly hadn’t anticipated hanging himself!

As I said, this story is a true tragedy -a moral dilemma - Judas, had so many options to deal with this, but he could do nothing but to fulfill his fate (or destiny, as you put it).

 

[tonyrey]

As I said, this story is a true tragedy -a moral dilemma - Judas, had so many options to deal with this, but he could do nothing but to fulfill his fate (or destiny, as you put it).

Which means he cannot be entirely responsible for his actions. He gives the impression of being an impulsive person who betrayed Jesus and hanged himself in quick succession. I doubt that anyone could have predicted such an extraordinary volte-face from one extreme to the other. Apparently cold-blooded treachery swiftly followed by a violent act of suicide. There is certainly more in this case than meets the eye. He caused two deaths neither of which he had anticipated…

 

[tonyrey]

Which means he cannot be entirely responsible for his actions. He gives the impression of being an impulsive person who betrayed Jesus and hanged himself in quick succession. I doubt that anyone could have predicted such an extraordinary volte-face from one extreme to the other. Apparently cold-blooded treachery swiftly followed by a violent act of suicide. There is certainly more in this case than meets the eye. He caused two deaths neither of which he had anticipated…

I cannot think of any similar event as strange as this but it is not surprising because Jesus is the main protagonist in the struggle between good and evil while Judas was an unwitting instrument of our redemption - like Caiaphas and Pilate - and Satan the main antagonist…

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I cannot think of any similar event as strange as this but it is not surprising because Jesus is the main protagonist in the struggle between good and evil while Judas was an unwitting instrument of our redemption - like Caiaphas and Pilate - and Satan the main antagonist…

But Pilate and Caiaphas were definitely not tragic figures like Judas was. They were basically powerful, heartless men who played key roles in Jesus’ death on the cross. No matter what was said about Pilate being forced into giving Jesus to the crowd, I don’t buy it. He was looking out for his own skin. Caiaphas was only concerned about the problems Jesus was causing for his people. Neither of them cared a whit about Jesus nor felt any sorrow when he died on the cross, unlike Judas.

 

[tonyrey]

I cannot think of any similar event as strange as this but it is not surprising because Jesus is the main protagonist in the struggle between good and evil while Judas was an unwitting instrument of our redemption - like Caiaphas and Pilate - and Satan the main antagonist…

I entirely agree, Christine. I believe Judas loved Jesus and was absolutely devastated when he realised the full implications of what he had done. For him everything must have seemed meaningless after he had served his Master faithfully for three years and then come to the end of the road. He knew there was nothing he could do to make up for his fatal mistake. He was tortured by guilt and there was only one way he could escape. He may have realised that sharing his Master’s fate was better than living as a traitor. At least he was demonstrating he really believed he had “betrayed innocent blood” and wanted to make amends even though it was impossible. At first sight it seems a futile gesture but probably it has made all the difference as far as God is concerned. To give his life in despair when there was nothing else he could do may well have been the final expression of his love for Jesus in this world… He chose to die. What more could he have done?

 

[tonyrey]

I entirely agree, Christine. I believe Judas loved Jesus and was absolutely devastated when he realised the full implications of what he had done. For him everything must have seemed meaningless after he had served his Master faithfully for three years and then come to the end of the road. He knew there was nothing he could do to make up for his fatal mistake. He was tortured by guilt and there was only one way he could escape. He may have realised that sharing his Master’s fate was better than living as a traitor. At least he was demonstrating he really believed he had “betrayed innocent blood” and wanted to make amends even though it was impossible. At first sight it seems a futile gesture but probably it has made all the difference as far as God is concerned. To give his life in despair when there was nothing else he could do may well have been the final expression of his love for Jesus in this world… He chose to die. What more could he have done?

Judas chose to die - not for himself but because he rejected himself. Isn’t that what love for some one else entails? It was misguided but what else could he do? It may not be a good comparison but when we think of the way some of the Nazi guards cold-bloodedly treated their victims in Auschwitz with unnecessary cruelty day after day for years on end we are confronted with diabolical evil in all its horror. I think it helps to see Judas in that context…

 

[tonyrey]

But Pilate and Caiaphas were definitely not tragic figures like Judas was. They were basically powerful, heartless men who played key roles in Jesus’ death on the cross. No matter what was said about Pilate being forced into giving Jesus to the crowd, I don’t buy it. He was looking out for his own skin. Caiaphas was only concerned about the problems Jesus was causing for his people. Neither of them cared a whit about Jesus nor felt any sorrow when he died on the cross, unlike Judas.

There seems to be evidence that both Pilate and Caiaphas eventually committed suicide. Perhaps they did realise they had committed a crime against an innocent man particularly when the first Christians were growing in number and were sacrificing their lives for their Lord. Pilate washed his hands in a vain attempt to evade responsibility for the execution of Jesus but he knew he could have prevented it. Caiaphas was convinced Jesus had blasphemed but he may well have had doubts after hearing the reports of miracles and martyrs* both before and after the Crucifixion. It was a unique event in his role as High Priest that must have been impossible to forget. In fact it probably haunted him to the end of his life. Jesus was no ordinary character! Both Pilate and Caiaphas must have remembered the words:

“Yes, I am a king. I was born for this, I came into the world for this: to bear witness to the truth; and all who are on the side of truth listen to my voice.”

• St John the Baptist was the first if we exclude the massacre of the innocents.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

There seems to be evidence that both Pilate and Caiaphas eventually committed suicide. Perhaps they did realise they had committed a crime against an innocent man particularly when the first Christians were growing in number and were sacrificing their lives for their Lord. Pilate washed his hands in a vain attempt to evade responsibility for the execution of Jesus but he knew he could have prevented it. Caiaphas was convinced Jesus had blasphemed but he may well have had doubts after hearing the reports of miracles and martyrs* both before and after the Crucifixion. It was a unique event in his role as High Priest that must have been impossible to forget. In fact it probably haunted him to the end of his life. Jesus was no ordinary character! Both Pilate and Caiaphas must have remembered the words:

“Yes, I am a king. I was born for this, I came into the world for this: to bear witness to the truth; and all who are on the side of truth listen to my voice.”

• St John the Baptist was the first if we exclude the massacre of the innocents.

That’s very interesting about Pilate and Caiaphas; I am curious about your evidence though. Do you have sources?

 

[tonyrey]

That’s very interesting about Pilate and Caiaphas; I am curious about your evidence though. Do you have sources?

Eusebius reported that Pontius Pilate committed suicide during the reign of Caius or Emperor Caligula. Eusebius records the following for us,
It is worthy of note that Pilate himself, who was governor in the time of our Savior, is reported to have fallen into such misfortunes under Caius, whose times we are recording, that he was forced to become his own murderer and executioner; and thus divine vengeance, as it seems, was not long in overtaking him. This is stated by those Greek historians who have recorded the Olympiads, together with the respective events which have taken place in each period.[11]

neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/what-happened-to-pontius-pilate-after-the-death-of-the-lord-jesus-christ/
There is a documentary about two nails found with bones of Caiaphas which suggest he may have been haunted by his role in the execution of Jesus but no clear evidence that he committed suicide. It would tally with the reports about Judas and Pilate though. The impact of Jesus must have been very strong in His presence and even more so after His death when Christians were dying as martyrs for their faith. Caiaphas must also have been very impressed when he heard that Saul had become an apostle.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/what-happened-to-pontius-pilate-after-the-death-of-the-lord-jesus-christ/
There is a documentary about two nails found with bones of Caiaphas which suggest he may have been haunted by his role in the execution of Jesus but no clear evidence that he committed suicide. It would tally with the reports about Judas and Pilate though. The impact of Jesus must have been very strong in His presence and even more so after His death when Christians were dying as martyrs for their faith. Caiaphas must also have been very impressed when he heard that Saul had become an apostle.

Your quote from Eusebius doesn’t suggest that Pilate was rueful about his actions. It more likely that he was forced into suicide because of personal and political misfortunes, like Karma. He got what was coming to him.

“Pilate himself, who was governor in the time of our Savior, is reported to have fallen into such misfortunes under Caius, whose times we are recording, that he was forced to become his own murderer and executioner; and thus divine vengeance.”

 

[tonyrey]

Your quote from Eusebius doesn’t suggest that Pilate was rueful about his actions. It more likely that he was forced into suicide because of personal and political misfortunes, like Karma. He got what was coming to him.

“Pilate himself, who was governor in the time of our Savior, is reported to have fallen into such misfortunes under Caius, whose times we are recording, that he was forced to become his own murderer and executioner; and thus divine vengeance.”

I’m sorry I missed your post, Christine, but better late than never! Even though Pilate was forced to kill himself it doesn’t follow that he is necessarily in hell. He was certainly weak at the trial of Jesus and responsible for the deaths of others but he lived in an age of barbaric cruelty. There was no concept of universal human rights which are ironically based on the teaching of his victim. At least he washed his hands in a vain attempt to evade responsibility for allowing Jesus to be executed unjustly. Yet his decision was not motivated by malice but by fear of being reported to Tiberius and recalled to Rome. His fear was justified because that is precisely what happened to him a few years later. That is undoubtedly a mitigating factor although his reputation suggests he may well have been guilty of other crimes. However it is not for us to decide that “he got what was coming to him”! Perhaps if we had been in his position we would done the same, knowing being recalled to Rome could mean a death sentence - without the prospect we have of going to life in heaven… On that happy note I wish you

Happy Easter!

 

[tonyrey]

One reply Judas could have made is “I don’t know”! It seems very unlikely considering the alacrity with which he obeyed his Master’s instruction to do what he had to do. If he was possessed, as St John believed, he wouldn’t even have hesitated. If he had any doubts Satan could have disposed of them quite easily by saying “Your Master knows you’re going betray Him and He has told you to act quickly”. There seems no possible way of refuting that assertion. Judas had been brainwashed!