Does your parish sing the ENTIRE recessional (closing) hymn?

[Corki]

I already know quite a few hymns, thanks. Although a lot of them are not Catholic hymns.

However, I learned and experienced them by raising my voice in song to the Lord. If there were no hymns sung at my church, I would never have learned them and I would have missed out.

How many people actually attend the Liturgy of the Hours? If all you have is a written copy (I happen to have the audio), what are you do do?

Come on!

I don’t understand the problem. No one is advocating doing away with hymns during Mass. In fact, there should be a additional hymn or other musical piece after Communion that very few parishes use, in my experience. The topic at hand is ONLY the recessional hymn; in particular – extra verses of the recessional hymn. Somehow wanting a shorter recessional hymn is being equated with wanting to take all the hymns out of Mass. :nope:

Score the internet for music or an mp3?

Do you mean “scour” the internet? That makes it sound like its hard to find. It isn’t. There are even podcasts of the LOTH with the sung hymns.

 

[Joan1969]

Ideally, you pray in thanksgiving after receiving Holy Communion. The rubrics (and Sacramentum Caritatis) also strongly recommend a period of sacred silence during this time.

The concern here is actually tacking on something extra to the Mass when the Church does not even address the issue. We should not take it upon ourselves to mandate something that Rome has not even ordered.

Hi Benedictgal (And Corki),

I’ve got to say that this postion surprises me, since I had never supposed people to wish hymns cut short as a matter of principle. I would rather have supposed it to be a matter of wanting to make things easier or more practical in some way.

I guess as someone who grew up as a Protestant (though I have been Catholic 20 years), I find the perspective confusing. I have certainly seen situations where a final hymn or piece of music is longer rather than shorter; are you suggesting this is incorrect? How can it possibly be incorrect to sing a hymn? It can’t be “mandated”, but having the organist play an extra verse or two would certainly give people the opportunity.

Certainly one should make a thanksgiving immediately after Communion, but the time here is often quite short. Many churches have distracting music during this time as well. So staying after is a very good habit, even if not strictly required. Frankly, I would like to do more but with children one finds it impractical to do more than a few minutes.

God Bless,
Joan

 

[benedictgal]

Hi Benedictgal (And Corki),

I’ve got to say that this postion surprises me, since I had never supposed people to wish hymns cut short as a matter of principle. I would rather have supposed it to be a matter of wanting to make things easier or more practical in some way.

I guess as someone who grew up as a Protestant (though I have been Catholic 20 years), I find the perspective confusing. I have certainly seen situations where a final hymn or piece of music is longer rather than shorter; are you suggesting this is incorrect? How can it possibly be incorrect to sing a hymn? It can’t be “mandated”, but having the organist play an extra verse or two would certainly give people the opportunity.

Certainly one should make a thanksgiving immediately after Communion, but the time here is often quite short. Many churches have distracting music during this time as well. So staying after is a very good habit, even if not strictly required. Frankly, I would like to do more but with children one finds it impractical to do more than a few minutes.

God Bless,
Joan

Because most of the Protestant forms of worship focus solely on the Word, music plays a larger role. Thus, the Word and the music form most, if not all, of this kind of worship.

The Church has both the Word and the Sacrifice. While music has an important role, it is not the main thrust. Furthermore, as I have stated before, the music serves the liturgy, not the other way around. Often, I have been to a parish where the pastor has mandated that all of the verses be sung and the visiting priest is often left outside for a long period of time waiting for the faithful to leave. When there is an over-emphasis on the music, that can be a problem.

 

[Sarika]

I have never sung an entire recessional hymn in a long time unless Father decides to wait at the sanctuary for the majority of the recessional hymn (my old pastor liked doing this ) and then process out. The hymn ends when those, who participated in a special role during the Mass (readers, servers, the priest, etc.), reach the back of the church. Is there anyone out there that actually goes to a parish where the entire recessional hymn is sung?

Our former priest insisted that EVERY SINGLE verse be sung of every single hymn that we sang in every single Mass (even daily Mass). It was exceedingly painful in some circumstances, and many of the hymns had a lot of verses! He was very proud of this fact, and seemed to think that it made him (and us) holier for doing so. It also lengthened the Mass to a uncomfortable degree - daily Mass was 45-50 minutes long, Sunday Mass was always well over an hour( about 1 hour and 10-20 mins). It was so awkward to be singing verse after verse after verse, ad nauseum. Some of us began to think we were there for a Songfest instead of Mass.

 

[Digitonomy]

No. I am not prescribing my own rule. Even at Papal Masses, after the Holy Father finishes incensing the altar and goes to his chair, the singing ceases.

So I take it you are merely applying the same rule for recessional music the Holy Father is using. Can you quote that rule? And why is the Holy Father incensing the altar and going to his chair during the recessional?

 

[Phemie]

I don’t understand the problem. No one is advocating doing away with hymns during Mass. In fact, there should be a additional hymn or other musical piece after Communion that very few parishes use, in my experience.

Wait a minute – there’s no ‘should’ about the post-Communion hymn. It’s an option, the last of four:

• silent prayer,
• a psalm of praise,
• a canticle of praise,
• or a hymn

GIRM 88. When the distribution of Communion is finished, as circumstances suggest, the priest and faithful spend some time praying privately. If desired, a psalm or other canticle of praise or a hymn may also be sung by the entire congregation.

 

[Corki]

Wait a minute – there’s no ‘should’ about the post-Communion hymn. It’s an option, the last of four:

• silent prayer,
• a psalm of praise,
• a canticle of praise,
• or a hymn

I stand corrected. Of course, I would be happy with any of those which I rarely experience.

 

[benedictgal]

So I take it you are merely applying the same rule for recessional music the Holy Father is using. Can you quote that rule? And why is the Holy Father incensing the altar and going to his chair during the recessional?

This is what we were also told during the training session on the revised Roman Missal. I did not say that the Holy Father was incensing during the recessional. Please re-read my comments.

Furthermore, the prelate teaching the course was quite adamant that the rule of thumb is that the introductory and concluding rites be brief. The question on the recessional, I believe, was very well addressed by the bishop of Tyler. It is consistent with what many of us have been saying throughout this thread.

The “gathering” and “sending forth” songs seem to me to be more along the lines of promotion by the publishing houses. These are terms commonly used in OCP’s materials.

 

[TrueLight]

d

I guess as someone who grew up as a Protestant (though I have been Catholic 20 years), I find the perspective confusing. I have certainly seen situations where a final hymn or piece of music is longer rather than shorter; are you suggesting this is incorrect? How can it possibly be incorrect to sing a hymn? It can’t be “mandated”, but having the organist play an extra verse or two would certainly give people the opportunity.

God Bless,
Joan

I believe that is both our problems. The concept of people insisting that hymns are not “mandated” is foreign to us.

Do you mean “scour” the internet? .

Yes, that’s what I meant. Thanks.

 

[athenasius]

At my parish we usually do just because most hymes have only three or four verses. Any longer and we just go up to three.

 

[benedictgal]

I find all the thumbs up at this quote extremely disheartening.

Actually, what Corki and many of us have being saying is true. We do not have the right to impose something that not even the Church has imposed. When the Roman Missal is silent on something, that does not give us carte blanche to start imposing and imbedding things into the liturgy because we see fit. The Church does not work that way.

 

[willwhite1951]

Never have i seen or sang whole hymn,it would be a blessing to offer this but… its only 2 verses

 

[Joan1969]

Because most of the Protestant forms of worship focus solely on the Word, music plays a larger role. Thus, the Word and the music form most, if not all, of this kind of worship.

The Church has both the Word and the Sacrifice. While music has an important role, it is not the main thrust. Furthermore, as I have stated before, the music serves the liturgy, not the other way around. Often, I have been to a parish where the pastor has mandated that all of the verses be sung and the visiting priest is often left outside for a long period of time waiting for the faithful to leave. When there is an over-emphasis on the music, that can be a problem.

Hi Benedictgal,

Perhaps a matter of balance? It takes about 1-2 minutes to sing a verse of a hymn, so I don’t see how the priest can really be left waiting too very long. I would see your point better if we were talking about 5 or 6 verses every Sunday, even in summer, etc. Cutting a hymn “short” to three verses might be a relief in some circumstances, especially after a long Mass or in a hot sanctuary, or with wiggly kids. I just don’t see two.

The practical consequence of this position is, of course, that no hymn is ever sung in anything like its entirety. If that was the way it was meant to be, then why would any Catholic hymn have more than three verses at the most? Why have Trinitarian hymns, since the Holy Spirit is almost sure to have His verse skipped? Maybe have hymns where the entire Trinity gets honored in one or two short verses, so ensure the suitablity of the music. Or stick entirely with music that is naturally short, like the “simple Salve”.

God Bless,
Joan

 

[benedictgal]

Hi Benedictgal,

Perhaps a matter of balance? It takes about 1-2 minutes to sing a verse of a hymn, so I don’t see how the priest can really be left waiting too very long. I would see your point better if we were talking about 5 or 6 verses every Sunday, even in summer, etc. Cutting a hymn “short” to three verses might be a relief in some circumstances, especially after a long Mass or in a hot sanctuary, or with wiggly kids. I just don’t see two.

The practical consequence of this position is, of course, that no hymn is ever sung in anything like its entirety. If that was the way it was meant to be, then why would any Catholic hymn have more than three verses at the most? Why have Trinitarian hymns, since the Holy Spirit is almost sure to have His verse skipped? Maybe have hymns where the entire Trinity gets honored in one or two short verses, so ensure the suitablity of the music. Or stick entirely with music that is naturally short, like the “simple Salve”.

God Bless,
Joan

Unfortunately, there are songs that go on and on into eternity. A good deal of them come from the Protestant Praise and Worship genre that has seeped into the Church. One of them, found in Spirit and Song, went on for eight verses. The choir sang this as the entrance processional and went through all eight verses. The celebrant was flustered to the point that he almost forgot the introductory rites and launched into the Collect.

Regarding the Trinitarian hymns, these would perhaps be better suited as the entrance processional, especially if incense is involved.

 

[CatholicZ09]

I guess that a good example of a song that should not be sung in its entirety if uneeded is “All Creatures of our God and King.” The majority of hymnals have the song going on for seven verses. Typically the priest is already in the back ready to shake hands after verse two, so it would be pointless to sing five more verses of the hymn.

 

[benedictgal]

I guess that a good example of a song that should not be sung in its entirety if uneeded is “All Creatures of our God and King.” The majority of hymnals have the song going on for seven verses. Typically the priest is already in the back ready to shake hands after verse two, so it would be pointless to sing five more verses of the hymn.

The only time that I would envision using all seven verses would be for a Mass where the bishop is the celebrant and you have lots of concelebrants and deacons (installation Mass, ordination Mass, or some other diocesan liturgy). You need that many verses to cover everyone.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

When I was an exchange student in southern Germany twenty years ago, the hymns in our little parish were sung from hardbound missals and always had around eight verses. These were of the “Holy God, We Praise Thy Name” genre and were thus singable. At the recessional, the organist would play through the entire hymn as an introduction (as with all the other hymns) and the priest and altar boys waited at the altar until the last verse had ended. Then, as the organist began the postlude, they would exit the sanctuary. Everyone sang loudly and not a single person left before the hymn was over.

 

[Joan1969]

Unfortunately, there are songs that go on and on into eternity. A good deal of them come from the Protestant Praise and Worship genre that has seeped into the Church. One of them, found in Spirit and Song, went on for eight verses. The choir sang this as the entrance processional and went through all eight verses. The celebrant was flustered to the point that he almost forgot the introductory rites and launched into the Collect.

Regarding the Trinitarian hymns, these would perhaps be better suited as the entrance processional, especially if incense is involved.

Good Morning Benedictgal,

You give a good example of a principle being taken too far. I would not appreciate eight verses myself.

At the other extreme is an example from my parish, where one verse of “A Mighty Fortress is Our God” was sung. Unfortunately, the first verse ends with a description of the devil’s power. Not a good place to end it! But the priest had reached the back…

I’m still sticking with my idea of three as an every-Sunday minimum, with maybe five as a maximum for special feasts, where perhaps a longer recessional could be coordinated. Two or even one could be okay for daily Masses, assuming people wanted to sing at all on such occasions.

Perhaps at this point we need to agree to disagree.

God Bless,
Joan

 

[frenchbeatle]

At my home parish, we tend to sing just the amount of verses it takes for the priest to enter/leave the sanctuary. Sometimes he waits at the altar for a verse or two before he leaves, so we end up singing the whole song. At the parish I go to during the week, we tend to sing every verse, even after the priest has left, or he stands at the altar singing the last two verses during the entrance hymn.

About the Communion hymn, I’d prefer silence, but I’ve gotten better at blocking out the sound of the song and praying my thanksgiving.

 

[Corki]

The only time that I would envision using all seven verses would be for a Mass where the bishop is the celebrant and you have lots of concelebrants and deacons (installation Mass, ordination Mass, or some other diocesan liturgy). You need that many verses to cover everyone.

I was at Mass this morning where seven verses would have been a good idea. It was a funeral Mass and when they announced the final hynm, to be sung as the family followed the casket out of the Church, they announce the numbers of three verses. While I think those three verses are the “best,” especially at a funeral, it didn’t cover nearly enough time.

IMHO, the song has value in and of itself but needs to also suit its purpose - to cover the recession of the priest and the ministers- or in this case family. Too short or too long; it’s all about good planning (and/or a Plan B).