Does your parish sing the ENTIRE recessional (closing) hymn?

[TrueLight]

If you watch NCIS, he is Gibbs and I am a cross between Abby and Ziva, although I do figuratively get the Gibbs headslap from him.

I also have problems reading off my Blackberry. I am too dumb for a smartphone.

I should also mention that my iPhone fell over the weekend and is cracked in a dozen places, so I was reading while on the bus through shards of glass. ha ha.

New phone in a couple of days!

 

[Digitonomy]

I can understand your angst if people leave immediately after Holy Communion or before the celebrant leaves; however, there is no need for further singing once the celebrant has processed out.

That there is no need is irrelevant. There is no need for people to stay behind and pray, there is no need for the priest to greet the congregants on their way out. These are things that are unnecessary but appreciated by some.

 

[benedictgal]

That there is no need is irrelevant. There is no need for people to stay behind and pray, there is no need for the priest to greet the congregants on their way out. These are things that are unnecessary but appreciated by some.

However, it is relevent because those who insist (and, it’s mostly at the behest and suggestion of the publishing houses) on having every verse sung of the recessional are adding on to something that not even the Roman Missal requires.

When we do this, we make the recessional more important than it really is. We also make the liturgy the servant of the music when it should be the other way around.

 

[Digitonomy]

However, it is relevent because those who insist…on having every verse sung of the recessional are adding on to something that not even the Roman Missal requires.

Those who insist on cutting recessional hymns short are adding a requirement not found in the Roman Missal.

 

[benedictgal]

Those who insist on cutting recessional hymns short are adding a requirement not found in the Roman Missal.

Not necessarily. The recessional serves a purpose in that it provides some sort of exit music for the celebrant. As one priest from our previous diocese was wont to say, “The recessional covers my exit, not yours.” Once the celebrant has left, the music has served its purpose. There is no need to have a piece that goes on into infinity, nor should the faithful be required to stay there until ever verse has been sung.

 

[Digitonomy]

Not necessarily.

Not necessarily? So this rule is in the Roman Missal? We both know that’s not true.

benedictgal:

There is no need to have a piece that goes on into infinity, nor should the faithful be required to stay there until ever verse has been sung.

There is no need to have a piece of music, period. The music is unnecessary whether it’s one verse, or twenty verses.

The music director may choose to limit the length out of concern for congregants who feel it’s bad manners to leave before the singing is done. The music director may choose to go through every single verse because the narrative message of the hymn would otherwise be incomplete. The music director may choose to play a lengthy instrumental piece to avoid the wretched singing of the cantor, or the congregation. The music director may be instructed in very specific terms what to do and not do by the pastor. While some of these may be better options than others, all these things are unnecessary, and neither right nor wrong.

 

[benedictgal]

Not necessarily? So this rule is in the Roman Missal? We both know that’s not true.There is no need to have a piece of music, period. The music is unnecessary whether it’s one verse, or twenty verses.

The music director may choose to limit the length out of concern for congregants who feel it’s bad manners to leave before the singing is done. The music director may choose to go through every single verse because the narrative message of the hymn would otherwise be incomplete. The music director may choose to play a lengthy instrumental piece to avoid the wretched singing of the cantor, or the congregation. The music director may be instructed in very specific terms what to do and not do by the pastor. While some of these may be better options than others, all these things are unnecessary, and neither right nor wrong.

However, there really is no need to stretch out the recessional hymn to make it mandatory that every verse be sung. The only real purpose is to cover the recessional of the celebrant.

Anything longer and it would seem to give the music undue importance.

Given that the Roman Missal is silent on the matter, that should not give us carte blanche to stretch the music out simply because we think we can. The ones who really push the extended “sending forth” are the ones who adhere to the publisher’s suggestions about the “sending forth song” which is not even a liturgical term, but, something that is trendy.

 

[elgar]

However, there really is no need to stretch out the recessional hymn to make it mandatory that every verse be sung. The only real purpose is to cover the recessional of the celebrant.

Anything longer and it would seem to give the music undue importance.

Given that the Roman Missal is silent on the matter, that should not give us carte blanche to stretch the music out simply because we think we can. The ones who really push the extended “sending forth” are the ones who adhere to the publisher’s suggestions about the “sending forth song” which is not even a liturgical term, but, something that is trendy.

So, if your church has a short aisle and the celebrant has a fast gait, one verse of the hymn should do it. How unfortunate. It’s no wonder Catholics are such poor singers. They hardly ever go beyond 2 verses of the hymn. Does good taste/decorum have any bearing here?

 

[CatholicZ09]

I don’t mean to interfere here, but this little debate has been faught ad nauseum. The thread is a simple “yes, no, depends” poll. If you feel like continuing the debate, please start a new thread or private message each other.

 

[TheMc]

Unfortunately, that is the general opinion of music and congregational singing in my parish, that it is “filler” for some other liturgical action going on, and not a liturgical action in itself.

That “opinion” is correct, unless you are singing the propers. Singing hymns is not a liturgical action.

 

[TheMc]

So, if your church has a short aisle and the celebrant has a fast gait, one verse of the hymn should do it. How unfortunate. It’s no wonder Catholics are such poor singers. They hardly ever go beyond 2 verses of the hymn. Does good taste/decorum have any bearing here?

You are failing to see the purpose of hymns in the Roman Catholic Liturgy. They are primariarly designed for the LOTH and private devotion. In the case of LOTH, they should be sung all the way through. During the Mass, hymns are simply “fillers”, in place of the normative music: the propers.

 

[TrueLight]

You are failing to see the purpose of hymns in the Roman Catholic Liturgy. They are primariarly designed for the LOTH and private devotion. In the case of LOTH, they should be sung all the way through. During the Mass, hymns are simply “fillers”, in place of the normative music: the propers.

Nice and succinct. And sad.

 

[Melchior_1]

I don’t mean to interfere here, but this little debate has been faught ad nauseum. The thread is a simple “yes, no, depends” poll. If you feel like continuing the debate, please start a new thread or private message each other.

Depends. Sometimes we do the whole song, other times during music practice we’ll re-consider and modify the song so it is shorter.

 

[Digitonomy]

It sounds like you’re mostly in agreement with me on this.

However, there really is no need to stretch out the recessional hymn to make it mandatory that every verse be sung.

We both agree it’s not necessary to stretch out the recessional hymn, nor is it necessary to make it mandatory, nor is it necessary to stretch it out in order to make it mandatory.

benedictgal:

Given that the Roman Missal is silent on the matter, that should not give us carte blanche to stretch the music out simply because we think we can.

We agree that the Roman Missal is silent on the matter, and that there are better reasons to stretch out the music than “simply because we think we can.”

benedictgal:

The ones who really push the extended “sending forth” are the ones who adhere to the publisher’s suggestions about the “sending forth song” which is not even a liturgical term, but, something that is trendy.

I’ll defer to you on this, since I haven’t been paying much attention to the crusade against the music publishers.

benedictgal:

The only real purpose is to cover the recessional of the celebrant.

Here is the one point you listed where we seem to disagree, as there would seem to be any number of additional reasons for a recessional, none of them discussed by the GIRM.

benedictgal:

Anything longer and it would seem to give the music undue importance.

“Seem” is a good word, as we now appear to agree that this matter is governed by opinion and perception, not by any rules per se. And if we are simply venturing opinions, I would suggest that a longer recessional need not give the music undue importance. Indeed, a short piece that climaxes during the exit of the celebrant could be much more dramatic and garner a more inappropriate amount of attention than a more lengthy yet subdued piece that sets a contemplative mood for the recessional of the congregation, or for those remaining behind for post-mass prayer, or for those greeting the priest and other parishioners outside the church.

 

[TheMc]

Nice and succinct. And sad.

Very sad. And the worst thing is that many, if not most music directors have no clue about this. Wow.

 

[Corki]

Nice and succinct. And sad.

I understand, I think, what you are trying to say. But it isn’t “sad” that that’s the way hymns are used in Mass. What is sad is that more parishes don’t have LOTH and other worship services where people will have more exposure to the hymns.

Too many people expect Mass to fulfill every spiritual need or want that they have. The Mass is the source and summit but it’s not the only thing in the Church’s treasury.

 

[elgar]

You are failing to see the purpose of hymns in the Roman Catholic Liturgy. They are primariarly designed for the LOTH and private devotion. In the case of LOTH, they should be sung all the way through. During the Mass, hymns are simply “fillers”, in place of the normative music: the propers.

If the purpose of hymnody in the context of the mass is that of walking music for clergy, I find that insulting to the hymn writers. If I were a Catholic, I would much rather have NO music than having to deal with this kind of legalism.

 

[TrueLight]

If the purpose of hymnody in the context of the mass is that of walking music for clergy, I find that insulting to the hymn writers. If I were a Catholic, I would much rather have NO music than having to deal with this kind of legalism.

The responses you’ll get will be along the lines of

• It’s not about the music
• it’s not about composers and publishers forcing their music on us
• it is not required
• we shouldn’t be FORCED to sing more than 1-2 verses once the priests/servers have left

etc, etc.

Truly baffling to this lover of hymns.

 

[TheMc]

Just to be clear, I love hymns, but just when they are used in their proper place.

 

[Digitonomy]

If the purpose of hymnody in the context of the mass is that of walking music for clergy, I find that insulting to the hymn writers.

And I have to admit, if anyone is an expert on walking music, it’s Elgar.