you continue to say this, while we continue to say that du’aa (supplication) is a form of worship, and that seeking intercession from one who is not capable of interceding, is shirk (a polytheistic act). if you don’t believe that these two things are as we say, that’s on you. we believe them to be the truth and the reality. thus, according to what we hold to be true (i.e., du’aa = worship & no intecession (the type of intercession you’re asking for from mary) in this worldly life) you have taken mary as an object of worship before Allah.
Well said yaa akhi. I still want to make a detailed post, as none of the replies to my earlier posts had any evidences. And I will try to do that insha Allaah. But yes, this is where hawk is getting stuck in his thought-process. We are not saying you are offering salah to Mary. We are saying that you are worshipping her? Why? Because intercession is an act of worship and is for Allaah alone.
So you then respond with the foolish argument of “well, if intercession is for God alone, then do not ask a doctor for help, or friends for help.” And see hawk, my problem, here, is I truly want to think you are smarter than this. And i do think you ARE. But you knowingly present these foolish arguments, already knowing the answers to them. Why? because it is just perhaps what you do.
In Islaam, one can ask others living humans, who can hear/read the request, for help. You can talk to them in person, on the phone, by mail, by internet. As long as they can hear you. But if they are on the other side of the globe, and you sit in your living room “asking them for help”, attributing to them the power of ALL-HEARING, then this is SHIRK. And asking intercession of anyone, Mary included, IS SHIRK. Period.
originally posted by hawk
The intention of their prayer to Mary, is for intercession.
Then the intention of their action, as well as their action, is filled with shirk. Intercession is for Allaah alone, unless he grants that intercession to someone and grants those powers to someone. and mind you, Allaah does have this ability, obviously. But you have not provided evidence showing this.
originally posted by hawk
So it becomes amply evident that it is the intention which defines worship.
I do not understand the significance of your making this statement, as it is already well defined in Islaam 1400 years ago. Did you just figure this out? The prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallama said:
إنما الاعمال بلنيات
“Verily, all actions are by intentions.”
originally posted by hawk
Muslims are in a position to understand establishment of prayer, by intention, I suggest they look at it that way.
This is how we look at it. And so by your own admition, not only is the action of your worship (intercession) to Mary filled with shirk, but your intention is also filled with shirk.
And hawk, I do not believe anyone is intending to offend you. There are members of this board who do want to offend, as the call Muhammad names and say many hateful things. That however does not seem to be representative of the larger body of this board. And that is definately not the case here. No offense is intended. But I do understand how you can feel offended by Muslims saying your intercession with Mary is worship, as this is something you do and do not feel is wrong. But we are just telling you from the Islaamic perspective, and that is the purpose of these forums, to discuss our religions, is it not?
And assume that it truly is shirk, imagine the insult to Allaah. Allaah the Sublime created us to worship only Him, to ask only Him for help, to intercede through only Him, yet what do some of us do in return, we call upon saints for help, we call upon dead people, people who cannot even help themselves, for help. This is the real insult.
See what happens, now i’ve spent 20 minutes here. gotta go. Will try to come during the weekend.
let’s see here…
