Doesn't Allah know what Catholics believe?

[janG]

What I don’t understand about Muslim belief that the Koran is the word of God and that Catholics are wrong in their understanding of God is that it does not accurately state what Catholics believe!! I’ve read several quotes in various posts about God not having partners and ones like this:

And (remember) when Allâh (God) will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto men: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?’ …

That’s not what we do or believe at all! We worship ONE God and do NOT worship Mary. If the Koran is God’s word, then WHY are there mistakes about our beliefs in there? Doesn’t God know what we believe? Did God lie to Mohammed? How do you explain the fact that these things are wrong about our beliefs?

 

[hawk]

In the Quran, Allah is said to have provided Isa with helpers, that is the apostles, and they are counted as righteous.

Yet muslims accuse these very apostles of lying about Jesus Christ.

 

[Greg00]

Yes, I would like to see an answer to this as well.

 

[r.gonzales]

janG:

And (remember) when Allâh (God) will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto men: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?’ …

firstly, the word in this verse that is translated as “god” is ilah, which is more accurately translated as deity. in arabic, it means something that is worshipped. an ilah can be anything that the person has made a focus of worship.

janG:

That’s not what we do or believe at all! We worship ONE God and do NOT worship Mary. If the Koran is God’s word, then WHY are there mistakes about our beliefs in there? Doesn’t God know what we believe? Did God lie to Mohammed? How do you explain the fact that these things are wrong about our beliefs?

catholics have supplications/prayers directed to mary, mother of jesus. supplications and prayers are form of worship, thus, by directing these prayers towards her, you have made her a deity before God. this is how you worship her.

hawk:

In the Quran, Allah is said to have provided Isa with helpers, that is the apostles, and they are counted as righteous.

Yet muslims accuse these very apostles of lying about Jesus Christ.

hawk, the Quran does not disclose the identities of jesus’ helpers. your assumption that it refers to the “apostles” whom you christians believe to be jesus’ companions is just that… an assumption.

secondly, for argument’s sake, if the “apostles” were the very same helpers mentioned in the Quran, you assume that we believe that the statements attributed to them are really theirs. just as you probably assume that we believe the statements attributed to jesus are really his too.

 

[hawk]

r.gonzales:

firstly, the word in this verse that is translated as “god” is ilah, which is more accurately translated as deity. in arabic, it means something that is worshipped. an ilah can be anything that the person has made a focus of worship.

catholics have supplications/prayers directed to mary, mother of jesus. supplications and prayers are form of worship, thus, by directing these prayers towards her, you have made her a deity before God. this is how you worship her.

It is an appeal to a higher authority for intercession, it is not praying to Mary.
Having said that, no catholic teaching has ever been to treat Mary as God.

hawk, the Quran does not disclose the identities of jesus’ helpers. your assumption that it refers to the “apostles” whom you christians believe to be jesus’ companions is just that… an assumption.

secondly, for argument’s sake, if the “apostles” were the very same helpers mentioned in the Quran, you assume that we believe that the statements attributed to them are really theirs. just as you probably assume that we believe the statements attributed to jesus are really his too.

So basically you know nothing about Jesus.

Since the Quran doesnt tell you anything meaningful about the teachings of Christ.

Except the deny the teachings of the Bible.

 

[PMV]

r.gonzales:

catholics have supplications/prayers directed to mary, mother of jesus. supplications and prayers are form of worship, thus, by directing these prayers towards her, you have made her a deity before God. this is how you worship her.

Prayer and worship can be two different things. When we pray to Mary and the Saints, we are not praising them but asking for their intercession (almost equivalent to when you’d ask a friend or family member to pray for you).

 

[janG]

This is my point exactly…you can tell me over and over what the Koran says Catholics believe, but we are telling you it is wrong. The Koran is not accurate about what we believe and do. So how do you explain the error?

I believe God is all-knowing and understands perfectly what Catholics believe and do, so it should be accurate in the Koran. But, it is not accurate. Surely there are arabic words that could have accurately reflected what we believe and do.

Please explain how there can be this huge error about our beliefs, and this still be the true word of God.

 

[Genesis315]

janG:

What I don’t understand about Muslim belief that the Koran is the word of God and that Catholics are wrong in their understanding of God is that it does not accurately state what Catholics believe!! I’ve read several quotes in various posts about God not having partners and ones like this:

And (remember) when Allâh (God) will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto men: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?’ …

That’s not what we do or believe at all! We worship ONE God and do NOT worship Mary. If the Koran is God’s word, then WHY are there mistakes about our beliefs in there? Doesn’t God know what we believe? Did God lie to Mohammed? How do you explain the fact that these things are wrong about our beliefs?

What is the citation for this quote (ie what verseof the Quran is it)?

 

[Pug]

Could someone tell me how to find this verse in the Koran? I hate not knowing context.

Is it possible that the Koran is talking about a group of Catholics or Christians back in that time era and not about them right now? Or doesn’t the Koran get understood that way?

 

[r.gonzales]

hawk:

It is an appeal to a higher authority for intercession, it is not praying to Mary.
Having said that, no catholic teaching has ever been to treat Mary as God.

PMV:

Prayer and worship can be two different things. When we pray to Mary and the Saints, we are not praising them but asking for their intercession (almost equivalent to when you’d ask a friend or family member to pray for you).

see my post here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=805740&postcount=8

as well as my post above where i mention “supplicate”.

the definition of supplicate:
dictionary.com:

sup·pli·cate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spl-kt)
v. sup·pli·cat·ed, sup·pli·cat·ing, sup·pli·cates
v. tr.
To ask for humbly or earnestly, as by praying.
To make a humble entreaty to; beseech.

v. intr.
To make a humble, earnest petition; beg.

this includes asking for intecession. and Allah says, “all of the intercession is Allah’s.” (39:44) He also says, “who is this who intercedes with Him, except with His permission.” (2:255).

Allah has mentioned your excuses for worshipping others before Him in the Quran, where He says, “and they worship before Allah what does not harm them, nor benefits them while they say, ‘these are our intercessors with Allah.’ say: do you inform Allah of what He does not know in the heavens, nor in the earth? glorified is He from what you associate with Him [in worship].” (10:18).

regarding supplication and invocations to others before Allah - particularly the dead, He says, “so do not invoke anyone along with Allah.” (72:18). He also says, “so surely, you cannot make the dead nor the deaf hear the supplication” (30:52) and, “certainly those who hear can answer, while the dead, Allah will resurrect them, then to Him they will return.” (6:36) and, “and the living and the dead are not equal. surely, Allah makes whoever He wills hear, while you are not one who can make whoever is in the graves hear.” (35:22).

 

[Faith101]

It is an appeal to a higher authority for intercession, it is not praying to Mary.
Having said that, no catholic teaching has ever been to treat Mary as God.

wow. THat is EXACTLY what the pagan meccans used to say as well and it is recorded in the Quran over 1400 years ago. SubhanAllah

"And they worship besides Allah things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: “**These are our intercessors with Allah.” ** Say: “**Do you inform Allah of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?” Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him! " ** (Quran: Yunus 18)

 

[Faith101]

janG:

This is my point exactly…you can tell me over and over what the Koran says Catholics believe, but we are telling you it is wrong. The Koran is not accurate about what we believe and do. So how do you explain the error?

I believe God is all-knowing and understands perfectly what Catholics believe and do, so it should be accurate in the Koran. But, it is not accurate. Surely there are arabic words that could have accurately reflected what we believe and do.

Please explain how there can be this huge error about our beliefs, and this still be the true word of God.

The concept of worship in Islam may not be the same concept that you have now as a Catholic. We worship God alone. If you think about it, what is the most common form of worship? It is supplication. We do it daily, even if there is no formal worship prayer (except for the Muslims who pray 5 times a day aside from supplications).

So supplication is part of worship. You supplicate to Mary.

Again, the pagan arabs said exactly as you say now…that they worship GOD, but they supplicate to other than him for intercession.

And they worship besides Allah things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: “Do you inform Allah of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?” Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him! (Quran, Younes: 18)

 

[stillsearching]

Faith101:

wow. THat is EXACTLY what the pagan meccans used to say as well and it is recorded in the Quran over 1400 years ago. SubhanAllah

"And they worship besides Allah things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: “**These are our intercessors with Allah.” **

Say: “**Do you inform Allah of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?” Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him! " ** (Quran: Yunus 18)

Do you see how untruthful your religious teachers are to you? I have never supplicated to Mary, and I honor her greatly. You are displaying great ignorance of Catholicism, and attesting to it through Islam. Is the Koran that messed up?
I also pray five times daily, but not in some sort of enslaved supplication, but in honor and praise of God. It is called the Litrugy of the Hours, in which **every hour of every day ** is in honor of God. Sometimes it is not enough to bang our heads on the floor five times.

 

[r.gonzales]

stillsearching:

Do you see how untruthful your religious teachers are to you? I have never supplicated to Mary, and I honor her greatly. You are displaying great ignorance of Catholicism, and attesting to it through Islam.

if you recite the hail mary and use the rosary, of course you supplicate to mary. everytime you recite the hail mary you’re supplicating to her to intercede for you, “now and at the hour of [your] death.” or is this not supplication??? (see the definition of supplication i provided above.)

and regarding the ever so ignorant banging heads on the floor comment, perhaps you should read the islamic definition of worship, which i’ve posted here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=805740&postcount=8.

 

[janG]

Please, let’s not get nasty with each other. That was never my intention. The quote in the original post is from Al-Ma’idah 5:116

My original point and what still has not been answered is that the Koran does not accurately reflect Catholic beliefs. As an absurd example, the conversation is going something like this:

Muslim: My holy book says you eat chocolate cake and that displeases God and you must turn away from eating chocolate cake.
Catholic: I don’t eat chocolate cake, I eat the cake God commanded us to eat.
Muslim: My book says you eat chocolate cake, so I know you eat chocolate cake.
Catholic: No, I don’t eat chocolate cake, your book is wrong.
Muslim: My book says it can’t be wrong so I know you eat chocolate cake.
Catholic: No, I don’t eat chocolate cake. Your book is wrong. How do you explain your book being wrong?
Muslim: My book says it can’t be wrong.
Someone else: The pagans ate chocolate cake so you do too!

I feel like banging my head on a wall!! If God truly gave a new revelation to Mohammed, that revelation would have had to refute what Catholics had believed for the 600 years before Mohammed. It would have to accurately say what those beliefs are in order to tell us that they were incorrect and this was the new way. The Koran does not accurately state Catholic beliefs!!
And it seems the only response Muslims can give is that their book can’t be wrong so Catholics have to be wrong about what their own beliefs are.

Sorry, that just totally defies any logic to me.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Notice that the original question has not been answered. It’s just one triumphal declaration after another that Catholics worship Mary with no explanation as to why the Koran can’t explain this correctly or even show and refute the “ostensible” reason for saint intercession.

Scott

 

[r.gonzales]

janG:

My original point and what still has not been answered is that the Koran does not accurately reflect Catholic beliefs. As an absurd example, the conversation is going something like this:

…

And it seems the only response Muslims can give is that their book can’t be wrong so Catholics have to be wrong about what their own beliefs are.

Scott Waddell:

Notice that the original question has not been answered.

i wonder if you’ve actually read any of my posts.

 

[janG]

Yes, I have read your posts. They do not accurately reflect Catholic beliefs. If supplication is always worship, then according to you I worship my children because every day I beseech them to pick up their dirty laundry.

The original question has not been answered.

 

[r.gonzales]

janG:

If supplication is always worship, then according to you I worship my children because every day I beseech them to pick up their dirty laundry.

if you think that asking your childen to pick up their dirty laundry is supplication, then you obviously don’t understand the implication of the word, which is to humbly ask, beg and implore for something from a higher power, usually a deity of some kind.

there is also a difference between asking those who are alive and present for something and asking those who are dead or absent, which is the reason i posted those other verses in my previous post.

there is also the issue of seeking intercession, which has also been addressed… so yes, your question has been answered. you just choose to close your eyes and ears to it.

 

[hawk]

r.gonzales:

if you recite the hail mary and use the rosary, of course you supplicate to mary. everytime you recite the hail mary you’re supplicating to her to intercede for you, “now and at the hour of [your] death.” or is this not supplication??? (see the definition of supplication i provided above.)

“pray for us, sinners now and at the hour of our death”

is a plea for intercession