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PMV
Guest
To ask for something humbly is not the same as worship anyway if it’s not intended that way.
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r.gonzales
Guest
hawk said:
my point, exactly.
now refer to the verses i quoted about intercession as well as the definition of supplication. you can check the various dictionary sites for its definition and its synonyms if you wish: dictionary.com, merriam-webster.com, etc.
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hawk
Guest
a prayer for intercession is not worship
Do you ask others to make a dua for you?
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r.gonzales
Guest
rarely, if ever. and if i do, those who i ask are present and alive, and what is asked of is something well within the realm of the person’s capability. again, the distinction between asking someone who is there and asking someone who isn’t or is dead already…
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Ghosty
Guest
Perhaps that is the implication in Islam, but it is not, and never has been, the implication of the word in Catholicism. You can’t tell us what *we/] are doing based on your implications of the words we use. We are telling you honestly that there is absolutely no difference between what we ask of Mary, and what we ask of others when they pray for us, or even when we ask someone to clean up after themselves. You can’t keep telling us that what we are doing is NOT that simply because you put a different meaning on words than we do.
You see, the point is that God would know what CATHOLICS believe, and would say as much in the Quran. He would not be saying what Muslims think Catholics believe. We know that we believe such prayers to be no different than asking our friends to pray for/with us, and we have since centuries before Mohammed was a glimmer in his mother’s eye. The plain and simple truth is that you are wrong about what we believe, and you are wrong about the implication we are using. After all, if we believe the word has a different implication, we would have to be unknowingly worshipping Mary, and one can’t unknowingly worship something.
So the question is this. Why does God say we are doing something that we are not doing? Why is God saying we believe something that we don’t believe?*
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hawk
Guest
Ah…so you do ask for intercession.
Now ofcourse it is simply a matter of belief, we believe that Holy People of the past can intercede with God for our benefit.
You will actually have to show me proof that intercession with a dead person, in particular Mary will not work.
On the other hand I will show you miracles wrought through the intercession of Mary.
Either way you have no point left
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r.gonzales
Guest
actually, no. that’s the implication given by the english dictionary. see the first definition of “supplicate” that i provided above, pay particular attention to the part “as by praying”. you don’t pray to your children. you pray to a higher power of some sort.
there’s a huge difference. see what i said above regarding the difference between the living and the dead, the present and the absent.
perhaps because it is, in fact, what you believe, although you do not perceive it.
actually, look up the correct islamic definitions of “shafaa’ah” and “tawassul”. big difference between the two.
already done. as i said above, you just choose not to open your eyes and ears to it.
Allah says, “so surely, you cannot make the dead nor the deaf hear the supplication” (30:52)
He also says, “and they worship before Allah what does not harm them, nor benefits them while they say, ‘these are our intercessors with Allah.’ say: do you inform Allah of what He does not know in the heavens, nor in the earth? glorified is He from what you associate with Him [in worship].” (72:18).
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janG
Guest
First of all, we are not praying to the dead. Mary is ALIVE body and soul in heaven. Souls are immortal. Even though a person has experienced the physical death of their human body, their soul is still very much alive. Even your Mohammed’s soul is now at this very moment alive. However, we don’t know what his destination was. We know Mary is in heaven and we know that the saints the Church has cannonized are in heaven. They are alive and present with God. That is why we can ask them to pray with us to God.
Also, the word pray, while we often use it to mean our communication with God, also can simply mean to ask. That’s why court documents have a prayer for relief from the court. It means asking. So there is nothing inappropriate in asking someone who is alive and present with God to pray with us.
When the world ends, we will each get our human bodies back in a glorified form, but until that happens, our souls remain very much alive. We are judged at the time of our physical death when our immortal souls leave our bodies.
Jesus overcame sin and death and opened the gates of heaven. While his body was in the tomb, he went to those in waiting and told them the Good News that the messiah had come!
So I’m back to my original point…the Koran does not accurately reflect Catholic beliefs, and therefore cannot possibly refute them.
The ones not opening their eyes and hearts to the Truth are the Muslims who continue to dismiss the VISIBLE miracles, the apparitions of Mary and her continued pleas to mankind to listen to and follow her Son, and even apparitions of Jesus himself. The Catholic beliefs have been reaffirmed over and over throughout the 2000 years since Jesus established the Church. It is so very sad that so many choose to ignore even the visible evidence. I grieve that they do not know Christ’s love for them, and I will continue to pray for all those who continue to reject Him and what He has done for us.
Also, the word pray, while we often use it to mean our communication with God, also can simply mean to ask. That’s why court documents have a prayer for relief from the court. It means asking. So there is nothing inappropriate in asking someone who is alive and present with God to pray with us.
When the world ends, we will each get our human bodies back in a glorified form, but until that happens, our souls remain very much alive. We are judged at the time of our physical death when our immortal souls leave our bodies.
Jesus overcame sin and death and opened the gates of heaven. While his body was in the tomb, he went to those in waiting and told them the Good News that the messiah had come!
So I’m back to my original point…the Koran does not accurately reflect Catholic beliefs, and therefore cannot possibly refute them.
The ones not opening their eyes and hearts to the Truth are the Muslims who continue to dismiss the VISIBLE miracles, the apparitions of Mary and her continued pleas to mankind to listen to and follow her Son, and even apparitions of Jesus himself. The Catholic beliefs have been reaffirmed over and over throughout the 2000 years since Jesus established the Church. It is so very sad that so many choose to ignore even the visible evidence. I grieve that they do not know Christ’s love for them, and I will continue to pray for all those who continue to reject Him and what He has done for us.
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iamrefreshed
Guest
I think r.gonzales would be convinced that we eat chocolate cake even if we shared it with him and it tasted like key lime pie. 
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hawk
Guest
Hardly relevant first you would have to establish the Quran as valid scripture, I have shown time and time again that it is not.
**
I have on the one hand miracles wrought through the intercession of Mary
On the other hand I have a book, that says it doesnt work, and there is no reason to trust this book, except that it says that I should.
**
To me this is a no brainer.
The bottom line is you reject intercession.
Even though it is accepted in islam, Tawassul is the means to Allah, everything in islam then becomes Tawassul.
Regarding Shafa’a
Whether persons other than the Prophet are intercessors as well the answer is: yes, since the Prophet has explicitly declared it in many sound hadiths which quote below, among them the following:
“More people than the collective tribes of Banu Tamim shall enter Paradise due to the intercession of one man from my Community.” It was said: “O Messenger of Allah, is it other than you?” He said: “Other than me.”[3]
Qurtubi said: “It is Muhammad sallallahu
alayhi wa sallam, for he is an intercessor whom the people obey and who precedes them, just as he said: I will be your scout at the Pond (ana faratukum ala al-hawd). And he was asked about its meaning and said: It is my intercession, for you to use me as a means to your Lord (hiya shafa`ati tawassaluna bi ila rabbikum).” Ibn Kathir mentioned the latter meaning in his Tafsir (2:406, 4:183) as well as al-Razi in his (8:242).anything else?
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dranzal
Guest
Yes, I have read all the posts up to now.
My brother is Muslim and we have discussed this very issue. It turned out that the point of distinction was defining who actually is alive and therefore available to us for us to request their prayers. Muslims and Christians both ask people they know to pray for them. Example: “Jim, please pray for my child who has cancer.”
So, where’s the difference? Catholics believe that after death, the immortal spirit lives on (as a previous poster noted-we don’t know all the spirits destinations). Therefore, Mary, Saint Christopher, Saint Peter, etc. are as alive as Mr. Jones next door. The fact that Mr. Jones still has the limitations of his physical body does not make him more able to pray to God on my behalf. It only makes him more able to physically hear my request with his physical ears. Neither does Saint Christopher’s lack of a physical body restrict his spiritual ability to hear or his ability to pray to God on my behalf.
This, of course, leads to the “gotcha” question of "do we believe the saints are “ALL HEARING”, therefore making them “god” in Muslims eyes.
We do not believe that they are “All hearing”. Rather, we believe that in the grand scheme of things, The Church is the assembly or communion of all the saints. In this context, saints does not only refer to those formally recognized by the Church. There may be multitudes of Saints that are not yet recognized by the Church. Recognition by the Church is not a requirement for Sainthood. The Church simply attempts to discern ones sainthood for recognition. They don’t “make” saints.
**
That said, the Catholic Catechism states:
947: "Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others…
948: The term “communion of saints” therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion “in holy things” (sancta) and “among holy persons (sancti).”
956: “Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness…They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus…So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.”
Spiritually, we are in communion with our departed (but yet alive) brothers and sisters (aka saints in heaven). We ask them for prayers the same way you would ask a friend to pray for a dying child. We are not worshipping them any more than you are worshipping your friend.
For the record, I eat chocolate cake. I enjoy it with chocolate mousse between the layers and a thick smooth chocolate ganache on top. I think if I use that analogy, I will replace the decadent cake with brussel sprouts!
My brother is Muslim and we have discussed this very issue. It turned out that the point of distinction was defining who actually is alive and therefore available to us for us to request their prayers. Muslims and Christians both ask people they know to pray for them. Example: “Jim, please pray for my child who has cancer.”
So, where’s the difference? Catholics believe that after death, the immortal spirit lives on (as a previous poster noted-we don’t know all the spirits destinations). Therefore, Mary, Saint Christopher, Saint Peter, etc. are as alive as Mr. Jones next door. The fact that Mr. Jones still has the limitations of his physical body does not make him more able to pray to God on my behalf. It only makes him more able to physically hear my request with his physical ears. Neither does Saint Christopher’s lack of a physical body restrict his spiritual ability to hear or his ability to pray to God on my behalf.
This, of course, leads to the “gotcha” question of "do we believe the saints are “ALL HEARING”, therefore making them “god” in Muslims eyes.
We do not believe that they are “All hearing”. Rather, we believe that in the grand scheme of things, The Church is the assembly or communion of all the saints. In this context, saints does not only refer to those formally recognized by the Church. There may be multitudes of Saints that are not yet recognized by the Church. Recognition by the Church is not a requirement for Sainthood. The Church simply attempts to discern ones sainthood for recognition. They don’t “make” saints.
**
That said, the Catholic Catechism states:
947: "Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others…
948: The term “communion of saints” therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion “in holy things” (sancta) and “among holy persons (sancti).”
956: “Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness…They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus…So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.”
Spiritually, we are in communion with our departed (but yet alive) brothers and sisters (aka saints in heaven). We ask them for prayers the same way you would ask a friend to pray for a dying child. We are not worshipping them any more than you are worshipping your friend.
For the record, I eat chocolate cake. I enjoy it with chocolate mousse between the layers and a thick smooth chocolate ganache on top. I think if I use that analogy, I will replace the decadent cake with brussel sprouts!
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hlgomez
Guest
R. Gonzales,
You’ve made a good deal of taking the sentence out of context and twist it a little bit to prove your ignorance.
First of all, look back at what the first lines of the prayer says, here it is:
PRAY FOR US SINNERS… NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH. Now I am not yelling at you, but so you will see that your malicious intentions of twisting this prayer will be exposed. Make a good argument, but don’t twist or take anything out of context. There had been a whole lot of this kind of twisting that lead our discussions to nothing. It doesn’t help, brother.
Pio
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hlgomez
Guest
John G,
**Allah certainly knows what Catholics believe! It’s just that the dictations of Muhammad doesn’t come from Allah, but only comes from himself. Just examine the words very carefully. **
**It says: “And remember when Allah will say…” It is clear that Muhammad is assuming that Allah will say something like this. These words comes from Muhammad–NOT ALLAH. **
**So Allah is not the one saying this. So muslims, try examining these very carefully. **
Pio
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Faith101
Guest
hlgomez said:
peace pio
what are you talking about? which verse are you talking about. Please remember that if you dont understand arabic grammar and the arabic language in general you cant make assumptions like these using the translation.
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hawk
Guest
Asalam 'Alaykum,
Ah ha, the you must know arabic to understand what God is saying tack.
God is far above some language, sure there are limitations to the translations of the Bible, but you will not find Christians shying away from the Word of God in any form, because Gods message transcends the written word.
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iamrefreshed
Guest
If Allah’s intention was to give his perfect word to Mohammed and to have it be shared with all humanity, then I don’t think understanding Arabic would be a pre-requisite.
That is an old and poor arguement.
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Faith101
Guest
peace
You didnt understand what i’m trying to say. For example, you have some Christians who will argue that the Quran supports the trinity because God says “we” when referring to Himself at times. To an Arab, this is nothing short of hilarious. Understanding the language is very important. Therfore we can not take a verse that was revealed in arabic and grammatically analyze its english translation. Simply b/c grammar doesnt translate as well.
I hope this is clear. As for understanding the message of Islam while not speaking arabic…i can tell you that less than 20% of all muslims are arabs. so over 80% of those who believe in the message of Islam do so without having understood arabic.
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Faith101
Guest
Hawk, from you having been a muslim…i would have assumed you know more about the concept of tawheed and what breaks it.
it is clear to every knowledgble Muslim that supplicating to Mary, saints or the even the Prophet Mohamed himself constitutues an act of worship (may not be whole worship but partial worship)…whether or not you are actually able to recognize it or not.
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iamrefreshed
Guest
I think I understood perfectly. Allah’s words are only to be correctly understood in Arabic. The word for all mankind, directly from God’s mouth to Mohammed’s ear is limited.
And your numbers are, and continue to be meaningless. Quantity does not make something true.
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Booklover
Guest
It’s amazing that everybody and his brother is an authority on the Catholic Church! Not only Protestants but now also Muslims think they know more about our Church and what it teaches than we Catholics do! None of you is really interested in what the Church teaches, you’re just looking for something to criticize and in your criticisms you’re displaying your complete ignorance. You take everything we say out of context and use it against us.
Is what we believe or don’t believe an affront to you? Are we because of what you think we believe offending you personally in some way? Who the heck do you think you are? You’re not our judge!
I don’t impose my beliefs on anyone, neither do I want anyone else imposing theirs on me! Every time we try to explain something, you always come back with what Islam thinks about it. Well, I’m not impressed by Islam, the Qur’an or your “prophet”! Period!
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