Doesn't Allah know what Catholics believe?

[Ghosty]

actually, no. that’s the implication given by the english dictionary. see the first definition of “supplicate” that i provided above, pay particular attention to the part “as by praying”. you don’t pray to your children. you pray to a higher power of some sort.

The definition for supplicate gives no indication of what you’re trying to say. Yes, it says “as by praying”, but you have to know what praying means in order to make the accusation you do. You are, quite frankly, wrong when you say we don’t pray to our kids. In fact, the English language absolutely includes praying to other people. For example, “And, pray tell, what is the meaning of these semantical games?” To pray simply means to ask strongly, although it is also usually used in the context of a deity. The word pray is even a legal term in English, used in the courts to indicate a petition. Look it up if you like, you’ll see it has many meanings, the majority of which have nothing to do with deities.

perhaps because it is, in fact, what you believe, although you do not perceive it.

How on Earth can I believe something that I don’t perceive? That’s nonsense, I’m afraid. It’s impossible to believe something and not know it. Perhaps you mean something different? Or perhaps YOU are wrong about what we believe. I can tell you honestly that the Church settled these issues long before the Quran was put down on vellum, we have a Creed to prove it. These very questions, among countless others, were debated and concluded, and a Creed indicating EXACTLY what we believe was carefully constructed in order to put to rest all dissent.

The fact is, though you seem willing to twist all reality to avoid accepting it, that Islam is dead wrong about what we believe and teach. Absolutely, 100% wrong. I’ve known countless Muslims, all very kind and intelligent people, but it never ceases to amaze me that, when such discussions have come up, they’ve always insisted on telling me what I really believe rather than hearing what I say. This is a very dangerous blind-spot to have, and one that doesn’t bode well for your faith. It shows either a gaping wound in the fabric of Islam, or a complete inability on the part of Muslims to rectify reality with their traditional understanding of the Quran. This is an issue that must be settled, or Islam will be reduced to burying its collective head in the sand, away from all logic and philosophy.

 

[hawk]

Faith101:

Hawk, from you having been a muslim…i would have assumed you know more about the concept of tawheed and what breaks it.

From me having been a muslim, you are right, I am familiar with the concept of Tawheed.

But I will go further and say that Christians do not, I emphasize ** do not ** break the rules of tawheed, even though the Quran says that they do.

I do believe that tawheed is the basis of every monotheisitic faith.

I believe that Mohammed did not understand the meaning of the Trinity and therefore accuses Christians of shirk.

This is the main reason I reject the Quran as valid scripture,

How can a divinely revealed scripture make such a fundamental mistake about the beliefs of the christians, and the jews for that matter, and then say that they are “vile transgressors”?.
In this matter, a muslim who encounters Christianity with an open mind, and I admit that is hard, will have a very hard time rejecting the Truth of Christianity eventually.

Christianity speaks staight to the heart, it is a relationship with Abba, our father. And God is soooooooooooooooo good, I cannot even believe it.
How I love my Lord Jesus Christ, Isa ibnu Allah.

 

[Ghosty]

Hawk: Thank you so much for being here as a witness to what Christians, espescially Catholics, really believe and practice. We can say all day that we do not worship anything as a deity except God, but Muslims simply write us off and ignore our explainations.

Since you are a former Muslim, and you are familiar with Muslim thought, you are able to recognize that what Christians do is not what Muslims claim, and that is so very helpful. I hope and pray that even if your words don’t help to convert their hearts, at least they will encourage Muslims to actually take us at our word. It is up to Muslims to square reality with their faith, rather than to simply insist that reality is not as it is because their faith says so.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Ghosty:

Hawk: Thank you so much for being here as a witness to what Christians, espescially Catholics, really believe and practice. We can say all day that we do not worship anything as a deity except God, but Muslims simply write us off and ignore our explainations.

Since you are a former Muslim, and you are familiar with Muslim thought, you are able to recognize that what Christians do is not what Muslims claim, and that is so very helpful. I hope and pray that even if your words don’t help to convert their hearts, at least they will encourage Muslims to actually take us at our word. It is up to Muslims to square reality with their faith, rather than to simply insist that reality is not as it is because their faith says so.

I’ll second that big THANK YOU HAWK! I have tried to understand Islam by reading the Qur’an but it has not helped me. Having someone that “gets” both sides is very helpful.

 

[Faith101]

I think I understood perfectly. Allah’s words are only to be correctly understood in Arabic. The word for all mankind, directly from God’s mouth to Mohammed’s ear is limited.

that is not what i said, may God guide you and forgive you for putting words into my mouth. How can it only be understood in arabic when over 80% of those who call themselve muslim DONT SPEAK ARABIC.

And your numbers are, and continue to be meaningless. Quantity does not make something true.

Quantity means nothing. But i can also say that the majority of practicing Muslims far outweigh practicing Christians (the ones who actually follow what the Bible tells them). So there you go, Quantity and quality.

 

[Faith101]

hawk:

From me having been a muslim, you are right, I am familiar with the concept of Tawheed.

But I will go further and say that Christians do not, I emphasize ** do not ** break the rules of tawheed, even though the Quran says that they do.

I do believe that tawheed is the basis of every monotheisitic faith.

I believe that Mohammed did not understand the meaning of the Trinity and therefore accuses Christians of shirk.

This is the main reason I reject the Quran as valid scripture,

How can a divinely revealed scripture make such a fundamental mistake about the beliefs of the christians, and the jews for that matter, and then say that they are “vile transgressors”?.
In this matter, a muslim who encounters Christianity with an open mind, and I admit that is hard, will have a very hard time rejecting the Truth of Christianity eventually.

Christianity speaks staight to the heart, it is a relationship with Abba, our father. And God is soooooooooooooooo good, I cannot even believe it.
How I love my Lord Jesus Christ, Isa ibnu Allah.

I’d appreciate an explanation of what Tawheed is from you…because when you say that the Christians arent breaking it…i find it very hard to believe that you actually studied the concept in depth.

 

[Faith101]

iamrefreshed:

I’ll second that big THANK YOU HAWK! I have tried to understand Islam by reading the Qur’an but it has not helped me. Having someone that “gets” both sides is very helpful.

there are many christian converts to Islam, some on this site…and many on others who “get both sides” but how come their testimonies are never taken to be valid…hmmm

 

[Ghosty]

Quantity means nothing. But i can also say that the majority of practicing Muslims far outweigh practicing Christians (the ones who actually follow what the Bible tells them). So there you go, Quantity and quality.

Prove it. Prove that more Muslims are faithful and practicing than Catholics. If you can’t, then don’t make such statements.

there are many christian converts to Islam, some on this site…and many on others who “get both sides” but how come their testimonies are never taken to be valid…hmmm

Their testimonies aren’t taken as valid? Who on this thread is a former Catholic who is now a Muslim? I’m not aware of any posting on this thread. If they are former Catholics, have them come here and explain how we consider Mary a deity and worship her like we worship God. If you can find such people, make sure that they were indeed faithful Catholics and not just in name only. When they come here to discuss this issue, their testimonies will be considered. Until then you’re just making baseless claims.

Remember, not just any Christian will due, they will have to be former Catholics. Tell any former Catholic Muslims you know to come and post here, please. I would love to hear from them. Perhaps they will be able to provide some insight into Islam for us practicing Catholics.

 

[hawk]

Ghosty:

Their testimonies aren’t taken as valid? Who on this thread is a former Catholic who is now a Muslim? I’m not aware of any posting on this thread. If they are former Catholics, have them come here and explain how we consider Mary a deity and worship her like we worship God. If you can find such people, make sure that they were indeed faithful Catholics and not just in name only. When they come here to discuss this issue, their testimonies will be considered. Until then you’re just making baseless claims.

Peace Ghosty,
It is not easy to abandon the faith of your upbringing.
There are people who claim to be former catholics. And they may well be catholics too. Islam can be very persuasive, if one is selective about what one believes of it.

Besides there is an easier way, we shall actually take up Faith101 on the discussion of Tawheed.

It is most interesting to us, it has long been our contention that Christianity does not break the rules of tawheed as defined in Islam, today we shall post our explanation.

Wa’salam

 

[iamrefreshed]

Faith101:

that is not what i said, may God guide you and forgive you for putting words into my mouth. How can it only be understood in arabic when over 80% of those who call themselve muslim DONT SPEAK ARABIC.

Faith, you are the one who told Pio that he did not understand Arabic so he could not make assumptions about grammar. Read back in the thread.

Quantity means nothing. But i can also say that the majority of practicing Muslims far outweigh practicing Christians (the ones who actually follow what the Bible tells them). So there you go, Quantity and quality.

This one does not even deserve a reply. Did you stick out your tongue at me when you wrote it?

 

[iamrefreshed]

Faith101:

there are many christian converts to Islam, some on this site…and many on others who “get both sides” but how come their testimonies are never taken to be valid…hmmm

First off Faith, you assume too much. You do not know who’s testimonies I take valid or don’t.

Second, please tell me one Muslim on this board who is as informed as Hawk on both Islam and Catholicism.

Finally, are you finished being sarcastic towards me?

 

[hawk]

iamrefreshed:

First off Faith, you assume too much. You do not know who’s testimonies I take valid or don’t.

Second, please tell me one Muslim on this board who is as informed as Hawk on both Islam and Catholicism.

Finally, are you finished being sarcastic towards me?

Peace Iamrefreshed,

I shudder at your suggestion that I am knowledgable of Islam and Catholicism.

Please refrain making careless statements.

 

[iamrefreshed]

hawk:

Peace Iamrefreshed,

I shudder at your suggestion that I am knowledgable of Islam and Catholicism.

Please refrain making careless statements.

I’m sorry. I assumed so by reading your posts. Please accept this as a full retraction.

 

[hawk]

iamrefreshed:

I’m sorry. I assumed so by reading your posts. Please accept this as a full retraction.

Peace Iamrefreshed,
its not a question of knowledge.

It is just that statements like that can invite challenges, I am not here to be challenged wrt my understanding and knowledge of some faith.
Simply to testify to the Truth as I have come to know it.

 

[Proud_Kafir]

janG:

Doesn’t God know what we believe? Did God lie to Mohammed? How do you explain the fact that these things are wrong about our beliefs?

God knows. But, Muslims Allah doesn’t know.

Muslims Allah is no more than kaaba rock idol.


The above picture is house of Allah. This is where Allah is Kept.

 

[Genesis315]

Does the Quran ever mention the Holy Spirit? Or did Muhammed think the Trinity was God the Father, Jesus, and Mary???

 

[Robert_Bay]

General reminder:

Please keep the posts charitable and on-topic, avoiding any ad hominem remarks, or the thread will have to be closed. Thanks!

 

[Faith101]

iamrefreshed:

This one does not even deserve a reply. Did you stick out your tongue at me when you wrote it?

no, i said you can not go in depth about the grammar of an english translation and then attribute that to the arabic Quran. there is a difference. please re read my post

I didnt mean to offend you, but that was personal observation. Most muslims are just more in tune and know more about their religion than do most Christians. perhaps because Islam is an easier religion to understand and appeals to the mind and Christianity requires more acceptance of mysteries…who knows. but it was personal observation

 

[Faith101]

Proud Kafir:

God knows. But, Muslims Allah doesn’t know.

Muslims Allah is no more than kaaba rock idol.

http://www.al-islam.org/gallery/photos/tawaf.gif
The above picture is house of Allah. This is where Allah is Kept.

your hatred may even be greater than your ignorance. But even YOU are not outside the guidance of Allah. May Allah guide you.

 

[Faith101]

Genesis315:

Does the Quran ever mention the Holy Spirit? Or did Muhammed think the Trinity was God the Father, Jesus, and Mary???

clearly define “holy spirit”