Doesn't Allah know what Catholics believe?

[Genesis315]

Faith101:

clearly define “holy spirit”

The third person of the Trinity. When the Quran is calling us polytheistic by saying we worship Jesus and Mary as gods, wouldn’t it make sense that he mention the third person, the Holy Spirit? I mean, to me, if I were accusing Christians of being polytheisitic, I would say they worship three gods, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not the Father, Son, and Mother.

 

[Ghosty]

Holy Spirit is the “breath of God”, it is the recognition of God as the grace-giver and life-giver. The Holy Spirit is mentioned all over the place in the Gospels and the Epistles. Jesus himself refered to the Holy Spirit, and breathed the Holy Spirit onto the Apostles.

 

[Faith101]

Genesis315:

The third person of the Trinity. When the Quran is calling us polytheistic by saying we worship Jesus and Mary as gods, wouldn’t it make sense that he mention the third person, the Holy Spirit? I mean, to me, if I were accusing Christians of being polytheisitic, I would say they worship three gods, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not the Father, Son, and Mother.

yes, i understand it is the third person in the trinity. but what is the Holy Spirit?

 

[Faith101]

Ghosty:

Holy Spirit is the “breath of God”, it is the recognition of God as the grace-giver and life-giver. The Holy Spirit is mentioned all over the place in the Gospels and the Epistles. Jesus himself refered to the Holy Spirit, and breathed the Holy Spirit onto the Apostles.

ohh ok…there is a verse i can think of

We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay! (Chapter #2, Verse #87)

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (Chapter #4, Verse #171)

Say, the Holy spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims. (Chapter #16, Verse #102)

They ask thee concerning the spirit (of inspiration). Say: “The spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)” (Chapter #17, Verse #85)

I always thought this referred to the Angel Gabriel, i’ll look more into it inshALlah…

oh by the way, what do you mean “recognition that God is the life-giver” doesnt that go without saying? What is your relationship with the Holy Spirit?

 

[Ghosty]

I always thought this referred to the Angel Gabriel, i’ll look more into it inshALlah…

oh by the way, what do you mean “recognition that God is the life-giver” doesnt that go without saying? What is your relationship with the Holy Spirit?

Perhaps it does refer to Gabriel in the Quran, but that would be wrong, since Holy Spirit is the name of God in Christian understanding.

As for your second question, check out Genesis 2:7. It’s not that Christians question whether the Father is the giver of life without knowing of the Holy Spirit, it’s just that this person of God is revealed to us as the Holy Spirit (which literally means holy breath). In the New Testament this is thought is more carefully refined, and we learn that the Holy Spirit is also how special graces are confered, and life is itself a special grace.

 

[Genesis315]

Faith101:

ohh ok…there is a verse i can think of

We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay! (Chapter #2, Verse #87)

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (Chapter #4, Verse #171)

Say, the Holy spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims. (Chapter #16, Verse #102)

They ask thee concerning the spirit (of inspiration). Say: “The spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)” (Chapter #17, Verse #85)

I always thought this referred to the Angel Gabriel, i’ll look more into it inshALlah…

oh by the way, what do you mean “recognition that God is the life-giver” doesnt that go without saying? What is your relationship with the Holy Spirit?

Does the Quran ever say Christians erroneously worship the Holy Spirit as God?

 

[Reuben_J]

Faith101:

Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (Chapter #4, Vers

Ah ha. Say not “Trinity” : desist …

Why? Because Allah thinks Trinity means more than one God?

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Faith101:

ohh ok…there is a verse i can think of

We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay! (Chapter #2, Verse #87)

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (Chapter #4, Verse #171)

Say, the Holy spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims. (Chapter #16, Verse #102)

They ask thee concerning the spirit (of inspiration). Say: “The spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)” (Chapter #17, Verse #85)

I always thought this referred to the Angel Gabriel, i’ll look more into it inshALlah…

oh by the way, what do you mean “recognition that God is the life-giver” doesnt that go without saying? What is your relationship with the Holy Spirit?

Assalaamu 'alaikom,

Yes Holy Spirit (arabic Ruh al Qudus) refers to Angel Gabriel in the Quran, except for the last verse you quoted (17:85), thats just talking about the soul in general that humans and creatures possess.

 

[Genesis315]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

Assalaamu 'alaikom,

Yes Holy Spirit (arabic Ruh al Qudus) refers to Angel Gabriel in the Quran, except for the last verse you quoted (17:85), thats just talking about the soul in general that humans and creatures possess.

Yes, this is why I keep getting the impression that Muhammed thought the Trinity was God the Father, Jesus, and Mary.

Especially given the original post and this:

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (Chapter #4, Verse #171)

He keeps reenforcing that Mary is not a god, yet he never addresses Christian worship of the Holy Spirit as God.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

It seems there are some catholics that believe there is some sort of union between Mary and the Holy Spirit. Ive found articles on the net that address this from sites claiming to be catholic. Perhaps you guys here dont believe in such a union. Sorry im not fluent in the different sects/groups in christianity.

Also, i did find some material regarding the arab christians who were living at the time of the Prophet Muhammed that they used to believe Mary as the third of the trinity. Again, i dont know the different ideologies within christianity.

Bottomline, one can take the verse in 4:171 of the Quran and explain it with the verse in 5: (forgot the verse #) that speaks about Jesus denouncing calling the people to worship him and his mother Mary and apply that explanation to those who believe mary as part of the trinity (whether by union with the holy spirit or as the third of the trinity by herself). And one can also take those two verses separately since the verse in chapter 4 makes reference of the trinity but does not make explicit what it entails, whereas the verse in chapter 5 is in reference to those that worship Jesus and Mary, and the Islamic definition of worship includes calling upon and supplicating to them or giving them attributes of divinity or godliness.

 

[hawk]

Reuben J:

Ah ha. Say not “Trinity” : desist …

Why? Because Allah thinks Trinity means more than one God?

Actually the translation is faulty.

The arabic words are Thalatha, or “say not three”, the translator in this case is massaging the text, because Christians have often said, Mohammed did not even know what the Trinity is.
He thought the three are God, Jesus and Mary.

The actual word for Trinity is Thalouth, not Thalatha.

The word used in the Quran is Thalatha, not Thalouth.

**
The Quran never actually uses the word “Thalouth”
**

It only says “Thalatha” or “Three”

 

[Faith101]

hawk:

Actually the translation is faulty.

The arabic words are Thalatha, or “say not three”, the translator in this case is massaging the text, because Christians have often said, Mohammed did not even know what the Trinity is.
He thought the three are God, Jesus and Mary.

The actual word for Trinity is Thalouth, not Thalatha.

The word used in the Quran is Thalatha, not Thalouth.

**
The Quran never actually uses the word “Thalouth”
**

It only says “Thalatha” or “Three”

dont the Christians say “3 persons in 1” or is that not the Catholic church?

trinity = 3

 

[Faith101]

Reuben J:

Ah ha. Say not “Trinity” : desist …

Why? Because Allah thinks Trinity means more than one God?

Trinity is 1.God the father 2. Jesus the son 3. holy spirit

1+1+1= ? oh no , you’ll tell me 111= 1

Muslims believe in One God, anything added or subtracted, regardless of whatever beautiful mysterious name is given to it…is a faulty representation of what God is

this is our belief…you believe that God is trinity (3) ok…there will be a day where we will all stand in front of God “the father” and explain ourselves.

 

[hawk]

Faith101:

dont the Christians say “3 persons in 1” or is that not the Catholic church?

trinity = 3

True except that the three we speak of, is not the three that the Quran speaks of.

So it invalidates the comment in the Quran, obviously the Quran is incorrect in this matter.

Any Christian will tell you this.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

janG:

What I don’t understand about Muslim belief that the Koran is the word of God and that Catholics are wrong in their understanding of God is that it does not accurately state what Catholics believe!! I’ve read several quotes in various posts about God not having partners and ones like this:

And (remember) when Allâh (God) will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto men: ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?’ …

That’s not what we do or believe at all! We worship ONE God and do NOT worship Mary. If the Koran is God’s word, then WHY are there mistakes about our beliefs in there? Doesn’t God know what we believe? Did God lie to Mohammed? How do you explain the fact that these things are wrong about our beliefs?

Salaam Friend janG;
I humbly believe your were quick in drawing conclusions.

Here is the correct translation of the verse you provided.
“And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?” Qur’an 5:116 (PICKTHALL) Source Here

There is no mention of the verb “worship me” in the original Arabic verse; the Arabic verb used is Itakhiduni which means "Take me”. To say worship me in Arabic is to say “A’biduni”.

Merriam-Webster Online dictionary gives this definition of the term god: “a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers” Source Here

We know Jesus (PBUH) is believed to have more than natural attributes and powers, he is even believed to be God himself, but what about Mary? Do Catholics believe Mary to have more than natural attributes and powers? Would you please answer sincerely this simple question? Thank you.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Ghosty]

We know Jesus (PBUH) is believed to have more than natural attributes and powers, he is even believed to be God himself, but what about Mary? Do Catholics believe Mary to have more than natural attributes and powers? Would you please answer sincerely this simple question? Thank you.

No, Catholics do not, and have never, believed that Mary had anything other than natural “powers”.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Sorry i have to comment on Joseph’s reply.

Assalaamu 'alaikom Joseph,

you are right in terms of the literal translation. It does say ‘Take me’. However, taking them as gods does entail worshipping them. If one worships something, they are taking it as a god, and if someone takes something as a god, they are worshiping that thing. So understanding the verse to mean ‘worshiping them as gods’ is correct.

 

[Ghosty]

you are right in terms of the literal translation. It does say ‘Take me’. However, taking them as gods does entail worshipping them. If one worships something, they are taking it as a god, and if someone takes something as a god, they are worshiping that thing. So understanding the verse to mean ‘worshiping them as gods’ is correct.

And I must reiterate that even with this fix, the statement is still false. The Church has never, ever taken Mary in this manner. This is historically verifiable.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Ghosty:

And I must reiterate that even with this fix, the statement is still false. The Church has never, ever taken Mary in this manner. This is historically verifiable.

I made a reply earlier to your question regarding Mary.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Faith101:

Trinity is 1.God the father 2. Jesus the son 3. holy spirit

1+1+1= ? oh no , you’ll tell me 111= 1

Muslims believe in One God, anything added or subtracted, regardless of whatever beautiful mysterious name is given to it…is a faulty representation of what God is

this is our belief…you believe that God is trinity (3) ok…there will be a day where we will all stand in front of God “the father” and explain ourselves.

Faith, why is it every thread you participate in you have to focus on the Trinity?