Doesn't Allah know what Catholics believe?

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I made a reply earlier to your question regarding Mary.
I must have missed it, unless you’re refering to another thread. I don’t see any reply here about what I said refering to Mary. I’ll look at other threads on the issue 🙂

EDIT: I did a search through all your posts on these boards, and I didn’t find anything responding to me. Perhaps you were thinking of someone else?
 
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Joseph_Alison:
We know Jesus (PBUH) is believed to have more than natural attributes and powers, he is even believed to be God himself, but what about Mary? Do Catholics believe Mary to have more than natural attributes and powers? Would you please answer sincerely this simple question? Thank you.

Salaam.
Joseph.
Salaam Joseph,

I do not believe that you would like your own definition of God.

Do you believe in Jinn?
Do you believe in Malaika?

Are their powers “natural”?

I assume you do not worship them.

Having said that, Mary is granted all power from God.
If at all she has any power, it flows from God.

What makes her so powerful, is that she seeks to decrease, as her soul magnifies the Lord.
 
Hashi: Ok, you must have been refering to your general post earlier. I don’t know enough about the Quran to know if it refers to the Trinity as Father, Mother, and Son, but I will say that the Quran is in error when it says that we give any kind of supplication to Mary that would be given to deities of any sort. We supplicate to Mary in the exact same way you supplicate to your friends if you ask them to pray for you. Furthermore, we have already demonstrated that we do not give any supernatural, non-human attributes to Mary. One can only argue that we are worshipping Mary if one also believes that the aforementioned example of asking a friend for prayers on your behalf is worshipping them.

Muslims may believe that we give non-human attributes to Mary, or that we supplicate to her in a manner other than asking a friend to pray for us, but they’d be 100% wrong.

Also, while there may have been a group of so-called Christian Arabs who worshipped Mary, they would have been considered heretics and outside of the Church. One thing it’s important to remember when discussing Christianity is that we are not like Muslims in that we have a central, continuing tradition of orthodoxy that can’t be deviated from. This orthodoxy can be traced directly back to the Apostles, and has been in place since the time of Jesus’ preaching. Just because a group calls itself Christian doesn’t mean it submits to the authority of the Apostles. Not everything “Christians” say are equally valid. Protestants, for example, define themselves by rejecting the authority of the Apostles (hence “protest”), and can’t be trusted to provide accurate Christian beliefs. True Christian teaching can only be found completely within the context of Apostalic authority and succession.

I understand that this may be confusing for Muslims, especially of the Sunni tradition (my understanding is that the Shia have a tradition more similar to the Apostalic one, but not identical). It can be confusing for non-Christians to know what the teachings of the Apostles were, because many different groups claim to be Christian but have extremely different views. The fact is, however, that the teaching authority of the Apostles has been consistant and well documented since before the Christian Bible was even compiled, and can still be found in churches that have Apostalic Succession. If Muslims want to know what the core of Christianity is, they must study the teachings of the Apostalic churches.
 
Hashi Al-Eritre:
Sorry i have to comment on Joseph’s reply.

Assalaamu 'alaikom Joseph,

you are right in terms of the literal translation. It does say ‘Take me’. However, taking them as gods does entail worshipping them. If one worships something, they are taking it as a god, and if someone takes something as a god, they are worshiping that thing. So understanding the verse to mean ‘worshiping them as gods’ is correct.
As Salaam Alaikum Brother Hashi;
You are absolutely right; I intentionally left the worship side for a latter discussion. For now, I just want to establish what kinds of powers are believed by our Catholic friends to belong to Mary. I know our Catholic friends will staunchly reject any allusion to Mary worship, so no talks about worship for now.

Your Brother
Joseph
 
You are absolutely right; I intentionally left the worship side for a latter discussion. For now, I just want to establish what kinds of powers are believed by our Catholic friends to belong to Mary. I know our Catholic friends will staunchly reject any allusion to Mary worship, so no talks about worship for now.
As has been stated, Catholics do not believe that Mary has any powers beyond yours or mine.
 
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Ghosty:
No, Catholics do not, and have never, believed that Mary had anything other than natural “powers”.
Salaam Friend Ghosty;
I humbly disagree with you on this one. Apart from the attribute of Mediatrix which is well know to everyone; Mary is indeed believed to have more than “natural” powers.
If I understood Catholicism correctly, Popes and Saints are authorities when it comes to catholic theology and dogma. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I collected here, concerning Mary, some of the sayings and writings of some Popes and Catholic saints . Please correct me if the Pope or the Saint I will quote has been declared heretic by the Church.

In his treatise on true devotion to the blessed virgin, St Louis de Montfort wrote: “Jesus, in choosing her as his inseparable associate in his life, glory and power in heaven and on earth, has given her by grace in his kingdom all the same rights and privileges that he possesses by nature. “All that belongs to God by nature belongs to Mary by grace”, say the saints, and, according to them, just as Jesus and Mary have the same will and the same power, they have also the same subjects, servants and slaves.”
ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM Look for #74

Sorry Friend Ghosty, but I can hardly call the above natural powers. Mary, as Jesus (believed to be God), is given the same divine powers “Just as Jesus and Mary have the same will and the same power, they have also the same subjects, servants and slaves” Since Jesus is believed to be God; this is but an indirect way of proclaiming the divinity of Mary.

" Consequently he (Jesus) has retained the submissiveness and obedience of the most perfect of all children towards the best of all mothers…When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will” ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM Look for #27

First I don’t know from where the author got his information from, and second sorry again Friend Ghosty, but I can hardly call the above natural powers. This is a disguised way of making Mary Goddess!

“Every day, from one end of the earth to the other, in the highest heaven and in the lowest abyss, all things preach, all things proclaim the wondrous Virgin Mary. The nine choirs of angels, men and women of every age, rank and religion, both good and evil, even the very devils themselves are compelled by the force of truth, willingly or unwillingly, to call her blessed” ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM Look for #8

Again, first I don’t know from where the author got the above information from and second sorry again Friend Ghosty, but I can hardly call the above natural powers. It is saying that everyday “men (Including me?) and women of every age, rank and religion” are compelled to call her blessed! This is short of outright calling her Goddess!

“Moreover, if, as I have said, the Blessed Virgin is the Queen and Sovereign of heaven and earth, does she not then have as many subjects and slaves as there are creatures? “All things, including Mary herself, are subject to the power of God. All things, God included, are subject to the Virgin’s power”, so we are told by St. Anselm, St. Bernard, St. Bernardine and St. Bonaventure. ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM Look for #76
Again Friend Ghosty, I can hardly say the above is natural powers. “All things, God included, are subject to the Virgin’s power” This is short of calling Mary Goddess, the supreme being of all.

To be continued…
Salaam.
Joseph.
 
…Continued
Following are some attributes I can hardly call natural.

First by Pope John Paul II: “Mary, though conceived and born without taint of sin, participated in a marvelous way in the sufferings of her divine Son, in order to be Coredemptrix of humanity.” Pope John Paul II, in remarks made to pilgrims after his General Audience on September 8, 1982. thekolbegroup.org/coredemptrix/in-defense/jp11.html

Pope John Paul II is declaring Mary Coredemptrix along with Jesus. Is not redemption a divine attribute according to Christianity? Sorry again Friend Ghosty but Mary is again given an attribute I can hardly call natural by your own standards.

Then by Pope Benedict XV: “As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother’s rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race.” Pope Benedict XV, in Inter Sodalicia, Apostolic Letter of March 22, 1918.
The Church Teaches, published by the Jesuit fathers of St. Mary’s College, bears the Imprimi Potest, Nihil Obstat, and Imprimatur of the Catholic Church, pages 210-211.

And finally by Plus XI: “O Mother of love and mercy who, when thy sweetest Son was consummating the Redemption of the human race on the altar of the cross, did stand next to Him, suffering with Him as a Coredemptrix…” Pope Plus XI, in a Radio broadcast from Lourdes, April 28, 1935, Prayer of the Solemn Closing of the Redemption Jubilee, (L’Osservatore Romano, 29-30 April, 1935). cin.org/archives/montfort/200203/0023.html

Pope Leo XIII gave Mary unlimited power, only God Almighty can claim: “The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help…How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as ‘our Lady, our Mediatrix,’ (St. Bernard, Serm.II in Adv. 4) ‘the Reparatrix of the whole world,’ (St. Tharasius, Orat. in Praesentatione) ‘the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts.’ (On Off. Graec., 8 Dec.).” Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #8.

“St. Anselm reminds: ‘We often obtain more promptly what we ask by invoking Mary than by invoking Jesus. Her Son is lord and judge of all, and discerns the merits of each one; therefore, if He does not immediately grant the prayers of all, He is just. When however, the Mother’s name is invoked, though the merits of the suppliant are not such as to deserve that his favor be granted, those of the Mother supply, that he may receive.’ Many things are asked from God and are not granted; they are asked from Mary and are obtained. Now why is this? Because God has thus decreed to honor His Mother.” St. Alphonsus Ligouri, in The Glories of Mary, Chapter IV "To Thee Do We Cry, p 48. lightministries.com/id605.htm#prayers

To be continued…
Joseph.
 
…Continued and end.
There is many more to add from Catholic saints and theologians to demonstrate that Mary is taken as god; they just do not call her God yet, but they give her all the powers and attributes of divinity.

The beliefs concerning Mary the mother of Jesus will keep changing; some will try elevating her further and further.

Along with the title of “Mother of God” She is already called the spouse of the Holy Ghost: “ “She (Mary) is a virgin who ‘keeps whole and pure the fidelity she has pledged to her Spouse’…The Holy Spirit had already come down upon her, and she became his faithful spouse at the Annunciation.” Pope John Paul II, in Redemptoris Mater (On the Blessed Virgin Mary in the Life of the Pilgrim Church), Encyclical promulgated on March 25, 1987, #5, 26).
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater_en.html

And “God the Holy Spirit entrusted his wondrous gifts to Mary, his faithful spouse, and chose her as the dispenser of all he possesses, so that she distributes all his gifts and graces to whom she wills, as much as she wills, how she wills and when she wills”

“Mary was the only one who merited to be called the Mother as Spouse of God.” St. Augustine of Hippo, in Sermons #208 (quoted by St. Alphonsus de Liguori in The Glories of Mary, p 304 (New York: Redemptorist, 1931).

Another instance where she is called spouse of the father: “Thus St. John Damascene, an outstanding herald of this traditional truth, spoke out with powerful eloquence when he compared the bodily Assumption of the loving Mother of God with her other prerogatives and privileges…‘It was fitting that she (Mary), who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions.’” Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (Defining the Dogma of the Assumption), Encyclical promulgated on November 1, 1950, #21.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MUNIF.HTM

“We greet you, Daughter of God the Father! We greet you, Mother of the Son of God! We greet you, spouse of the Holy Spirit! We greet you, dwelling place of the Most Holy Trinity!” Prayer of Saint Louis de Montfort, titled “Abide with us, Immaculate Mother”.
cin.org/archives/montfort/199712/0042.html

She is also called the lover of each person of the godhead: “St Godfrey of Admont wrote that each person of the Godhead is Mary’s lover." See the book by Michael O’Carroll, titled “‘Spouse of God’, Theotokos: A Theological Encyclopedia of the Blessed Virgin Mary”, p 158 (Wilmington, DE: Glazier, 1982).

She is already called the redeemer of mankind along with her son Jesus: “Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.” (Note 10) Pope Pius IX said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin… so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.” ( In the Encyclical of February 2, 1849. Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, “Essentials of Evangelical Theology”, Vol. 1, page 196.)

Some are working to declare her a co-redemptrix along with her son Jesus: “A lay movement called “Vox Populi” (“Voice of the People”) gathers signed petitions to send to the Pope, seeking to have him officially declare that Mary is Co﷓Redemptrix. Over six million signatures have been sent to him, representing 138 countries and all seven continents. This doctrine is supported by over 40 cardinals and 600 bishops worldwide. Source here

Where is it going to stop? Every saint seems to put his best efforts to go beyond what others before him said or wrote about Mary, where are the limits?
As always, friend Ghosty, no offense was intended whatsoever. If the tone of some of my comments sounded offending to you or any other reading them, I promptly ask for your forgiveness.

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
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Ghosty:
As has been stated, Catholics do not believe that Mary has any powers beyond yours or mine.
Salaam Friend Ghosty;
I showed you below that according to Popes and Catholics saints; Mary is believed to have far reaching powers that are way beyond yours and mine, what I am saying? Comparison does not even come to mind!

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
“All that belongs to God by nature belongs to Mary by grace”,
You show your own error right there. If it belongs to Mary by grace, it is not her natural power. The rest of your post centers around this fundamental error in your thinking. You see, grace, by definition, is not power which belongs to something, but power that is imparted to someone but actually belongs to someone else. All of the powers in all your posts are actually powers of God. The fact that it refers to them as grace is absolutely critical to understand.

You see, nothing you list belongs to Mary, and all of the Saints and Catholic writers who speak of Mary understand this. It’s is fundamentally understood in all Catholic teaching. When you hear a Catholic speak about Mary, you MUST understand what the meaning of grace is. For example, the moon shines bright in the night sky, but it is not the source of light. The sun is the source of the light that reflects from the moon. We are not wrong to say the moon is bright, because it is. We do not say, however, that the moon produces light. Producing light is an attribute of of the sun, not the moon, but by virtue of the sun producing light, the moon is bright.

You are reading saints say “the moon is bright,” and thinking they mean “the moon is a source of light.” To use just one quote that you posted to demonstrate this point:
“All that belongs to God by nature belongs to Mary by grace”, say the saints
All that belongs to the sun by nature (light) belongs to the moon by grace. The sun is naturally bright, the moon is bright by grace of the sun’s nature.
and, according to them, just as Jesus and Mary have the same will and the same power, they have also the same subjects, servants and slaves.”
Just as the sun and moon have the same will (to light the world) and the same power (to shine), they also have the same subjects, servants, and slaves (recipients of the light). Both the moon and sun shine, both are bright, but only the sun is the source of light. The moon, by nature, is a dark lump in space, but by the gift of light by the sun it becomes a light to the world. Their natures are completely different, and not a single aspect of the sun’s nature (producing light)is being attributed to the moon (reflecting light).

Also, we ALL have the natural ability to “reflect the light of God”. Mary is not unique in this at all, but rather completely human. In this it is like the planets we see in the sky. They reflect light just like the moon does, and they do not produce their own like the sun. Rather, they reflect the light of the sun, and in this share the same nature as the moon of being dark lumps in space. The moon is brighter than these planets, but it shares the same nature. Nothing in its nature makes it brighter, but rather elements outside of itself, namely its distance from the earth and the sun. Mary, also, shines brighter than anyone else, but not because she is more than human. She is the same kind of dark lump in the sky as the other planets. Just because the moon is brighter than the planets does not mean it has a different nature, or that it is more like the sun in its nature.

This is plain and easy logic, and I encourage you to go back over those quotes with this in mind in order to better understand what these Catholic writers are actually saying.

As for things like “Mediatrix”, that simply means “female mediator”. It’s important to understand the Latin in this case, because a “mediator” is something that brings two things together. Inside Mary, God became flesh, Divine Nature and Human Nature came together. Since Mary is the vessel for this, she is called Mediatrix. It’s not that she did it by her own power, but because she is used as the instrument to bring together these two things.

Co-Redemptrix is actually a controversial term, and is not accepted as official Catholic teaching. That being said, all it means is that she played an active role in bringing Jesus, the Redeemer, into the world. When you do see this term, however, remember that it’s not a part of Catholic teaching at all, but private opinion of some Catholics.

I will leave the Spouse issue to other posters, as I’m tired and busy. I will lead off by saying that the idea of marriage is much, much different in Catholic theology than purely physical. Spouse is used for a lot of things. In fact, the Church itself is called the “Bride of Christ”.
 
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hawk:
Salaam Joseph,

I do not believe that you would like your own definition of God.

Do you believe in Jinn?
Do you believe in Malaika?

Are their powers “natural”?

I assume you do not worship them.

Having said that, Mary is granted all power from God.
If at all she has any power, it flows from God.

What makes her so powerful, is that she seeks to decrease, as her soul magnifies the Lord.
Salaam Friend hawk;
Yes I do believe in Jinn and Malaika. I also believe Jesus (PBUH) raised the dead and it’s not natural also, but I do not worship him for such, it is clearly stated in the Qur’an and Jesus (PBUH) made it clear that it is Allah (SWT) who granted him his power however mighty.

The powers supposedly given to Mary do not have any divine scriptural support, even Biblical. As such the powers given to Mary are not given to Mary by God, but by humans like you and me; they make out of her whatever they want her to be.
Is she called the mother of God in the Bible?
Is she called the spouse of the Holy Ghost in the Bible?
Is she called Coredemptrix in the Bible?
Is she called Queen of the universe in the Bible?
Is she called Mediatrix in the Bible?
Is she…Is She…? No, she is almost invisible in the Bible and all of a sudden she became what she became, and by whom? Here comes the doctrine of the infallibility of the Church, the Pope and the Saints, whatever they say cannot be discussed but taken at face value and believed to be the absolute truth from God, and what is their source as far as Mary is concerned? I know you will say God, no need to argue about it, that is your belief and I respect it.

As always, not being a Catholic blinds me from “feeling” the sensitiveness of the belief issues of my Catholic friends. I reiterate that no offense is intended by what I wrote, if someone feels offended; I diligently offer him my deepest apologies.

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
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Ghosty:
You show your own error right there. If it belongs to Mary by grace, it is not her natural power. The rest of your post centers around this fundamental error in your thinking. You see, grace, by definition, is not power which belongs to something, but power that is imparted to someone but actually belongs to someone else. All of the powers in all your posts are actually powers of God. The fact that it refers to them as grace is absolutely critical to understand.

You see, nothing you list belongs to Mary, and all of the Saints and Catholic writers who speak of Mary understand this. It’s is fundamentally understood in all Catholic teaching. When you hear a Catholic speak about Mary, you MUST understand what the meaning of grace is. For example, the moon shines bright in the night sky, but it is not the source of light. The sun is the source of the light that reflects from the moon. We are not wrong to say the moon is bright, because it is. We do not say, however, that the moon produces light. Producing light is an attribute of of the sun, not the moon, but by virtue of the sun producing light, the moon is bright.

You are reading saints say “the moon is bright,” and thinking they mean “the moon is a source of light.” To use just one quote that you posted to demonstrate this point:

All that belongs to the sun by nature (light) belongs to the moon by grace. The sun is naturally bright, the moon is bright by grace of the sun’s nature.

Just as the sun and moon have the same will (to light the world) and the same power (to shine), they also have the same subjects, servants, and slaves (recipients of the light). Both the moon and sun shine, both are bright, but only the sun is the source of light. The moon, by nature, is a dark lump in space, but by the gift of light by the sun it becomes a light to the world. Their natures are completely different, and not a single aspect of the sun’s nature (producing light)is being attributed to the moon (reflecting light).

Also, we ALL have the natural ability to “reflect the light of God”. Mary is not unique in this at all, but rather completely human. In this it is like the planets we see in the sky. They reflect light just like the moon does, and they do not produce their own like the sun. Rather, they reflect the light of the sun, and in this share the same nature as the moon of being dark lumps in space. The moon is brighter than these planets, but it shares the same nature. Nothing in its nature makes it brighter, but rather elements outside of itself, namely its distance from the earth and the sun. Mary, also, shines brighter than anyone else, but not because she is more than human. She is the same kind of dark lump in the sky as the other planets. Just because the moon is brighter than the planets does not mean it has a different nature, or that it is more like the sun in its nature.

This is plain and easy logic, and I encourage you to go back over those quotes with this in mind in order to better understand what these Catholic writers are actually saying.

As for things like “Mediatrix”, that simply means “female mediator”. It’s important to understand the Latin in this case, because a “mediator” is something that brings two things together. Inside Mary, God became flesh, Divine Nature and Human Nature came together. Since Mary is the vessel for this, she is called Mediatrix. It’s not that she did it by her own power, but because she is used as the instrument to bring together these two things.

Co-Redemptrix is actually a controversial term, and is not accepted as official Catholic teaching. That being said, all it means is that she played an active role in bringing Jesus, the Redeemer, into the world. When you do see this term, however, remember that it’s not a part of Catholic teaching at all, but private opinion of some Catholics.

I will leave the Spouse issue to other posters, as I’m tired and busy. I will lead off by saying that the idea of marriage is much, much different in Catholic theology than purely physical. Spouse is used for a lot of things. In fact, the Church itself is called the “Bride of Christ”.
Friend Ghosty;
Just to let you know I have read your reply and will have some comments later, as yourself I have something else to do for now.

Have a nice weekend.
Salaam.
Joseph.
 
Is she called the mother of God in the Bible?
Yes. Luke 1:43 to be exact: “43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
Is she called the spouse of the Holy Ghost in the Bible?
Yes. Luke 1:35 to be exact: "35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.”
Is she called Coredemptrix in the Bible?
This is an implied definition because of this passage, again from Luke 1: " 38"I am the Lord’s servant," Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.” Then the angel left her.

This requires some minor explaination. Since she said “may it be done”, she was actively working to bring the Redeemer into the world, and therefore actively assisting in the Redeemer’s job. This is what is meant by “CoRedemptrix”. “Co” means with, or to assist, “redempt” is to redeem, and “trix” means that the subject is a female. Literally, CoRedemptrix means “The female who assists in redemption”. Since Mary actively willed what God said to be done, as is befitting a good servant, she is said to be assisting. It is a matter of semantics.
Is she called Queen of the universe in the Bible?
Yes. Revelation 12:1 and 5 reads: " 1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth."

“5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”

This has been understood to be Mary and Jesus.
Is she called Mediatrix in the Bible?
Again, this must be understood. Read John 1:1 where it says: “1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

and John 1:14 where it says: " 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

God, who is Divine Nature, becomes flesh, which is Human Nature. In whom did He take this? Inside of Mary. Therefore she is the what “brings together” the flesh with the Divine. “Mediator” means to bring together, and “trix” is the female ending.

So, everything you raised actually does come directly from Scripture. Nothing has been made up by the Catholic Church.
 
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Joseph_Alison:
Salaam Friend hawk;
Yes I do believe in Jinn and Malaika. I also believe Jesus (PBUH) raised the dead and it’s not natural also, but I do not worship him for such, it is clearly stated in the Qur’an and Jesus (PBUH) made it clear that it is Allah (SWT) who granted him his power however mighty.

The powers supposedly given to Mary do not have any divine scriptural support, even Biblical.
I have tangible testament in the thousands of apparitions, in which Mary has praised Jesus, and asked us to worship Him.

It is the sign of the living God.

What does islam have to say for itself as regards these apparitions and healings?
 
To begin, and I mentioned this in another post, if you are wanting to explain a verse from the Quraan, you must do so from an Islamic perspective. This, however, does not mean that you agree with this perspective; it merely insures that you will get the correct explanation of this verse. Let me explain the error.

“Islam says that we worship Mary. We don’t worship Mary. Ah-ha! The Quraan is wrong.”

The original question was how can the Quraan say Christians worship Mary when they don’t? The fault in your logic is that you are taking your understanding of what you do or do not do and then applying it to that verse. BUT it is a verse from the Quraan, and thus you must understand the Muslim concept of worship. You think that you do not worship Mary. But from the Islamic perspective, do Catholics worship Mary? YES. This is very clear. According to Islaam, supplication IS WORSHIP. From the context of this verse, we are not caring whether or not you feel that you worship Mary. Allaah knows best what worship is, not you.

So if it can be shown, from the Quraan or from the authentic statements of Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam, that supplication/intercession is worship, then there is no contradiction in the ayah. Again, this does not mean that you agree with the ayah. You can come and argue that you do not worship Mary, that you are merely asking for intercession, blah blah blah. But please understand that this has no affect on the meaning of the ayah.

So with regards to supplication in Islam:

Allaah says in the Quraan, “And when My slaves ask you (O Muhammad) concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed near. I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me (without any mediator or intercessor). So let them obey Me and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright.” (Al-Baqarah 2:186)

We can see that we are supposed to call upon Allaah, and that there is no need for intercessors. Why would one ask for another’s intercession when you have equal access. Allaah says that He responds to the call of the caller.

But is this supplication worship? Is this asking of intercession worship?

Allaah says, “And they WORSHIP besides Allâh things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: ‘These are our intercessors with Allâh.’ Say: ‘Do you inform Allâh of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?’ Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him!” (Yunus 10:18)

In fact, this claim that we should seek intercession is the claim of the pagans of old, those of Mecca, since they said, as Allaah the Sublime quotes them, “And those who take Auliyâ’ (protectors and helpers) besides Him (say): ‘We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allâh.’” (Az-Zumar 39:3)

And to make it even more clear, Allaah says, “And the mosques are for Allâh (Alone), so invoke not anyone along with Allâh.” (Al-Jinn 72:18)

And Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallama said, “The supplication is the essence of worship.” And he, sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallama, even made it more clear when he said, "Verily, the suppliction is worship."

So it is very clear, THAT FROM THE ISLAMIC PERSPECTIVE, that calling upon, seeking help through, seeking intercession, supplicating to, are all acts of worship. From a Muslim perspective, there is no doubt that Catholics worship Mary. And from our perspective, they not only worship Mary, but they worship the saints, and anyone else from amongst the dead whom they call upon.

REMEMBER, the original question was how can the Quraan say Christians we worship Mary when they don’t. This question requires and understanding of worship, as defined by Islaam, which has been given in brief.

So there is no need for anyone to come post saying that we (catholics) do not worship Mary, blah, blah. If you say this, you are missing the point. The point was how can THE QURAAN say that Christians worship Mary. And this has been answered with a sufficient answering.

Now if you want to start another thread on worship in Islaam vs that of Catholicism, then that would be fine. But that is not the subject here.

Hope this helps.
 
And it is not only humorous, but also quite interesting to see how people today are arguing with the same baseless arguments that were made 1400 years ago.

For example, hawk, in an effort to argue that Catholics do not pray to Mary, said the following: “It is an appeal to a higher authority for intercession, it is not praying to Mary.”

And as other’s quoted, the answer reply to this falsehood is the statements of Allaah:
  • "To Allâh belongs all intercession.” * (Az-Zumar 39:44)
"And they WORSHIP besides Allâh things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: ‘These are our intercessors with Allâh.’ Say: ‘Do you inform Allâh of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?’ Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him!" (Yunus 10:18)

Subhaanallaah. How the answers are so clear.
 
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jcaz:
And it is not only humorous, but also quite interesting to see how people today are arguing with the same baseless arguments that were made 1400 years ago.

For example, hawk, in an effort to argue that Catholics do not pray to Mary, said the following: “It is an appeal to a higher authority for intercession, it is not praying to Mary.”

And as other’s quoted, the answer reply to this falsehood is the statements of Allaah:
  • "To Allâh belongs all intercession.”* (Az-Zumar 39:44)
"And they WORSHIP besides Allâh things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: ‘These are our intercessors with Allâh.’ Say: ‘Do you inform Allâh of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?’ Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him!" (Yunus 10:18)

Subhaanallaah. How the answers are so clear.
sigh…
Tawassul is accepted in islam, Tawassul is the means to Allah, everything in islam then becomes Tawassul.

Regarding Shafa’a
Whether persons other than the Prophet are intercessors as well the answer is: yes, since the Prophet has explicitly declared it in many sound hadiths which quote below, among them the following:

“More people than the collective tribes of Banu Tamim shall enter Paradise due to the intercession of one man from my Community.” It was said: “O Messenger of Allah, is it other than you?” He said: “Other than me.”[3]

Qurtubi said: “It is Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, for he is an intercessor whom the people obey and who precedes them, just as he said: I will be your scout at the Pond (ana faratukum ala al-hawd). And he was asked about its meaning and said: It is my intercession, for you to use me as a means to your Lord (hiya shafa`ati tawassaluna bi ila rabbikum).” Ibn Kathir mentioned the latter meaning in his Tafsir (2:406, 4:183) as well as al-Razi in his (8:242).

anything else?
 
Jcaz: Your argument falls apart, Jcaz, because Muslims have people pray for them, but Muslims don’t say that they are worshipping their friends when they ask them to pray for them. If a Muslims says “Pray for me” to a friend, they are doing the same thing Catholics do to Mary, but Muslims say Catholics are supplicating and that they themselves are not.

Muslims can ask for du’a from others without being accused of worshipping them, but when Catholics do it we are accused of worship. It is clear that merely asking someone to make du’a for you is not itself worship according to Islam, so it’s not the action of requesting that’s the problem.

The real problem seems to be the fact that we are asking “the dead” for du’a on our behalf, because clearly Islam allows these requests to the living. The argument seems to be that by asking the dead, we are attributing to them qualities that belong only to God, namely the ability to hear us everywhere, but we’ve already taken that argument apart on this thread.

You are focusing too much on the action of asking, but that can not be called worship without destroying the Muslim tradition of offering du’a on behalf of others. The fact is that the ancient Arab pagans were violating Islam not because they were asking for du’a, but because they were ascribing powers to their gods that belonged only to God. Any other explaination destroys Muslim practice and belief.
 
Salaam Friend Ghosty;
You show your own error right there. If it belongs to Mary by grace, it is not her natural power.
Dear Friend, a quick reminder of what you wrote: “As has been stated, Catholics do not believe that Mary has any powers beyond yours or mine” but when confronted with the statement ““All that belongs to God by nature belongs to Mary by grace” you used your clever way of dismissing embarrassing arguments by playing with words.

Can you imagine the extent of what ALL that belongs to God is? How come you reduce “ALL what belongs to God” to “Catholics do not believe that Mary has any powers beyond yours and mine”? Are you/Am I omniscient? Are you/Am I omnipotent? Do you/do I own life and death? To cut things short, do you/do I own everything into existence? No. Well, contrary to your statement and according to the statement I quoted, Mary is believed to have powers beyond yours and mine and it is believed by Catholic saints; whether she acquired these powers by grace or by any other process is not the point, the fact remains that it is **believed **it belongs to her et she is supplicated **because **of that belief, and as other brothers pointed out that is your worship of Mary.

Please read this prayer by one of the Catholic saint, St. Ephrem of Edessa: “O Virgin most pure… It is you who have reconciled us with God, you are the only refuge of sinners and the safe harbor of those who are shipwrecked; you are the consolation of the world, the ransom of captives, the health of the weak, the joy of the afflicted and the salvation of all who have recourse to you, and we beg you to have pity on us.” St. Ephrem of Edessa, in Prayer to Mary, Mother of Compassion.
celtic-catholic-church.org/library/prayer/Marian_prayers.html

After reading the above prayer, I asked myself: what is left for God?
The rest of your post centers around this fundamental error in your thinking.
This is an easy way out my Friend and a clever tactic I must add. There is no fundamental error in my way of thinking. Friend Ghosty it is you who tried to reduce “All that belongs to God by nature, belongs to Mary by grace” to nothing, in an attempt to stay in line with your former statement by playing on the word grace.
You see, nothing you list belongs to Mary, and all of the Saints and Catholic writers who speak of Mary understand this
.

Well friend Ghosty, they certainly understood it, that is why: “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin… so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her” In the Encyclical of February 2, 1849. Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, “Essentials of Evangelical Theology”, Vol. 1, page 196.)
Don’t you think the above is too much for someone who nothing belongs to?

…To be continued.
 
……Continued and end.
For example, the moon shines bright in the night sky, but it is not the source of light. The sun is the source of the light that reflects from the moon.
Interesting analogy Friend Ghosty.
Remove the moon and the solar system becomes instable or perishes, remove Mary and you tell me what will happen to your faith. According to your explanation, nothing dramatic would happen if Mary were removed from the picture since she is “only a channel” and nothing I listed belongs to her. A lot of things would happen if Mary were removed from the picture: “
All our hope do we repose in the most Blessed Virgin… in her who is the safest refuge and the most trustworthy helper of all who are in danger… in her who has destroyed all heresies and snatched the faithful people and nations from all kinds of direst calamities; in her do we hope who has delivered us from so many threatening dangers”…
Pope Pius IX, in Ineffabilis Deus (The Immaculate Conception) Apostolic Constitution issued on December 8, 1854, Section titled “Hoped-For Results”.
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

“He who **neglects **the service of the Blessed Virgin will die in his sins. He who does not invoke thee, O Lady, will never get to Heaven. Not only will those from whom Mary turns her countenance not be saved, but there will be no hope of their salvation. No one can be saved without the protection of the Blessed Virgin Mary.” St. Bonaventure, “Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary,” Ps.116; DDP, p. 413; IPM, p. 90; GM, p. 221, 170; SOR, p. 30, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 1: “The Book of Mary,” Chapter 3: “Those Who Refuse to Honor Our Lady Will Be Lost”).
geocities.com/Athens/Troy/6480/catholics/apostolic1chp3.html

I quoted Pope PiusIX and St. Bonaventure beliefs about Mary (Which should be yours and the one of every Catholic) which shows that Mary is not a “mere” channel through which you direct your prayers.
You are reading saints say “the moon is bright,” and thinking they mean “the moon is a source of light.”
No Friend Ghosty, I am reading the “moon eclipses the sun”, in other words the sun is behind the scene.
Why not go directly to the source of the light instead of going to a reflector of the light?

To summarize: Allah (SWT) does know what Catholics believe. Mary is given or believed to have far reaching powers and that is why she is supplicated and prayed to; from an Islamic perspective she is worshiped.

I know the subject of Mary is a difficult one to talk about. It is easy for an outsider to cross the line and write something that our Catholic friends would find offending. Hopefully, Muslims hold Mary in high esteem as a woman selected by Allah (SWT) from among the woman of the world, and as such no offending terms concerning that devout lady will Incha’Allah come from us.

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
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